Homosexuality not a choice, It's caused by exposure to hormones in utero

[rtwngAvngr]

You obviously are NOT educated on what the Bible says about homosexuality. It "is" a "sin", and God is real pissed off at anyone who practices' such deviant behavior. The Lord goes on to say how their "blood shall be upon them", and "they shall surely die", meaning queers will NOT enherit God's gift of enternal life in heaven. So, if you look at it in that sense, yes, it is "evil", because homosexuality can only be derived from the devil.

THAT is the point.

Yes, but we do not live a Christian Theocracy. Despite New Guy's and other's claims.

 

[ChrisH]

Homosexuality is not moral and it is not right, and I will stand by that statement!

If you were to populate an entire planet with nothing but homosexuals, they would be completely extinct within 100 years, assuming some were babies.

I do not believe people are born homosexual. I do believe it is a choice or attraction that some people develop that could be overcome with help.

As a Christian, I firmly stand behind the Bible, and I know what it states about homosexuality.

 

[Gem]

ChrisH,

Excellent, well stated and I have nothing but respect for the opinion.

But can you clear up how you justify the things you DON'T follow in the Bible with the fact that you DO follow the passages about homosexuality?

 

[ChrisH]

ChrisH,
But can you clear up how you justify the things you DON'T follow in the Bible with the fact that you DO follow the passages about homosexuality?

I am not sure I follow?

 

[007]

ChrisH,

Excellent, well stated and I have nothing but respect for the opinion.

But can you clear up how you justify the things you DON'T follow in the Bible with the fact that you DO follow the passages about homosexuality?

Now gem, it's appearing as if you now just want to distract away from the topic of the thread, and turn this into a Christian bashing stunt.

I'm sure that if we had the opportunity to scrutinize you and your beliefs, we could also say to you, why do you believe this and not that. But since you HAVEN'T devulged anything at all that you believe in, we don't have that opportunity.

So yes, it looks a lot like you just want a pissing contest, and yes, that's very antagonistic. So if you're just trying to piss people off, you're getting there.

 

[-Cp]

-Cp-

You are obviously a rude ignoramus, or unable to debate someone without first turning to insults.

Thanks for the insight regarding Old vs. New Testament...it would have been a good place to start the conversation, rather then where you started...

Since you only wish to discuss the New Testament...I would ask you why Christians in general do not show the same distain for the lifestyle of adulterers...which are not only listed in Leviticus, but have a WHOLE COMMANDMENT written about them.

Why are you not pushing for adultery to be illegal?? Or giving adulterers the same scrutiny you are giving homosexuals? Are you a fan of Ronald Reagan and John McCain? Would you condemn their second marriages because the Bible states that they are sinners who are still married to their first wives?

God OBVIOUSLY felt more stongly about adultery then he did about homosexuality...yet look what we are harping about...the statistics regarding married men and women cheating is on the rise...but you want to talk about less than 2% of the population...

What I'm getting at here, for all the people I've just managed to offend, is that the Bible (yes, EVEN the NEW TESTAMENT, CP!) contains numerous things that Christians choose to follow and numerous things that they choose to ignore for a myriad of reasons...

If you are going to site the Bible as your reason for being against homosexuality or against gay marriage...then you should expect people to wonder why you are only enforcing some of it...

Now you just need to learn how to pay attention and we'll be off and running...

I said:

"I think Christian's biggest problem w/ homo's, outside of it being a "bit creepy" is that the folks who claim to be such want to invoke special rights and privledges that aren't being afforded to other freaky groups like Polygimists or those into beastiality..."

My problem isn't dealing specificly with the sin of being a homo, adulturer, cheater, stealer or anything act of sinful nature. The difference between being a homo, however, and anything else we can do is that typically someone who falls into the trap of the homosexual lifestyle doesn't flee from it - it's an ongoing state of sinfulness.

So it'd be ignorant, and wrong, for anyone to aruge that God hates homo's any worse than he does anyone else "God is no respector of people" "God is not willing any should parish, but come to repentence" etc..etc..

That said, someone living any kind of sinful life should next expect God to give him/her the keys to Heaven when they arrive before him on the day of judgement.


So, what's the big beef here in America then if homo's want to "marry"? The beef is, that Marriage has been an religious institution setup by God with the creation of Adam and Eve. It's part of his perfect plan that man and woman should marry. The problem is, as I outlined above, is that if you open the door to allow homo's to marry then you open up a slippery slope of anyone who wants to mary anything else - be it, animals, polygamy etc .etc..

I believe most Christians wouldn't have an issue if they just wanted to call it a "civil union" which would extend them some sort of long-term relationship benefits, and can't have the option of adoption..

 

[-Cp]

I am not sure I follow?

Guys, I think what Gem is trying to do here (albeit he's doing it rather misguidedly) is to look at the hypocrisy amongst most Christians who are so fast to condem homo's but aren't near as vocal about other forms of immorality - even that which happens inside "the church"...

But, as I've stated, for me - it's not the issue of homo's immorality that concerns me as much as how they want to erode marriage into being between Adam & Steve - not Adam & Eve....

 

[ChrisH]

Guys, I think what Gem is trying to do here (albeit he's doing it rather misguidedly) is to look at the hypocrisy amongst most Christians who are so fast to condem homo's but aren't near as vocal about other forms of immorality - even that which happens inside "the church"...

But, as I've stated, for me - it's not the issue of homo's immorality that concerns me as much as how they want to erode marriage into being between Adam & Steve - not Adam & Eve....

I am not perfect and certainly will not claim to be. But, I do not pick and choose which Bible verses I believe and will follow and which ones I will not follow. I believe in them all, without question. I believe homosexuality is immoral, yes, and part of that is because of what the Bible says about homosexuality. It is a sin. I know I am a sinner and I, throughout my life, have certainly done some immoral things. But that doesn't mean I condone those things, and it doesn't mean I condone homosexuality. I think there is a differene between sinning and doing something immoral, recognizing it, admitting it, and asking for forgiveness and trying to keep from doing it again, as compared to living in this immoral way, assuming it is correct. But, I do understand many homosexuals may not believe in the Bible, and thus do not follow that, and I have to respect that. But I do not respect it in a manner to allow gay marriage to be legal and to give gay couples special rights.

And there is some things going on in the church now days, that is immoral and wrong. I see that and certainly do not condone it. I believe it is as a result of people slipping away from the true word of God and now moving more towards the world.

 

[-Cp]

And there is some things going on in the church now days, that is immoral and wrong. I see that and certainly do not condone it. I believe it is as a result of people slipping away from the true word of God and now moving more towards the world.

Does that at all surpsise you? "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be worse in the last days"


24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

 

[007]

Guys, I think what Gem is trying to do here (albeit he's doing it rather misguidedly) is to look at the hypocrisy amongst most Christians who are so fast to condem homo's but aren't near as vocal about other forms of immorality - even that which happens inside "the church"...

But, as I've stated, for me - it's not the issue of homo's immorality that concerns me as much as how they want to erode marriage into being between Adam & Steve - not Adam & Eve....

I've made a similiar point -Cp. I've told gem that it isn't the Bible alone that prompts me to believe the way I do. NATURE dictates most of my feelings. But I'm not going to repeat myself over and over for someone that just wants to nit pick the Bible to pieces.

 

[-Cp]

I've made a similiar point -Cp. I've told gem that it isn't the Bible alone that prompts me to believe the way I do. NATURE dictates most of my feelings. But I'm not going to repeat myself over and over for someone that just wants to nit pick the Bible to pieces.

Oh, I don't blame you, it's obvious when people try and twist the biblie to make them sound as if they're an authority on it...

 

[007]

Oh, I don't blame you, it's obvious when people try and twist the biblie to make them sound as if they're an authority on it...

Or in gem's case, probably an atheist, or agnostic, and cutting down the Bible and pursecuting Christians, like the aclu, is sport to them.

 

[Gem]

good thing you guys don't let your closemindedness get in the way of anything. good grief, i dare question you on something and I am sterotyped faster than i can blink...shame on you, you're worse than the aclu!!!

 

[-Cp]

good thing you guys don't let your closemindedness get in the way of anything. good grief, i dare question you on something and I am sterotyped faster than i can blink...shame on you, you're worse than the aclu!!!

Is this your way of avoiding my points posted?

 

[Gem]

Absolutely not, Cp.

The points made here, as I have read them, have been summed up to say that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong...and people here follow that...some do so while ignoring other things the Bible asks of them...others do so and claim they do not "pick and choose," some say they believe because the Bible says so AND because of other reasons outside the Bible.

The lack of addressing that point any further, CP, was simply an acknowledgment that people here are either claiming they follow everything the Bible says, or they don't because a) they don't have to or b) don't choose to. What else is there to say?

I am not here to mock people's religious belief, Cp. If you feel that the Bible tells you homosexuality is wrong and that is enough for you...that is your belief and I respect it...

My point is only that in today's world...the religious arguments against homosexuality fall flat to many people because of some of the reasons I addressed...we, Christians, do not stone people to death for adultery or being overly promiscuous, we do not sacrifice animals to God, we eat pork because we now understand refridgeration, we "accept" adulterers and divorcees in our homes as friends, however flawed, and in our churches as fellow worshipers, yet many Christians accept all of this blandly only to become very impassioned when speaking out against homosexuality...

To people who are not as steeped in faith as you appear to be this seems...confusing at best. If it is a fight you feel strongly about, I feel that you need to be prepared to address those reasons if you are going to debate with people, you have every right to disagree with that.

And what I still find perpetually amusing is your need, and Pale Riders, obviously, to stereotype me in a negative light because I had the audacity to question a belief that you hold.

 

[Mr. P]

Absolutely not, Cp.

The points made here, as I have read them, have been summed up to say that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong...and people here follow that...some do so while ignoring other things the Bible asks of them...others do so and claim they do not "pick and choose," some say they believe because the Bible says so AND because of other reasons outside the Bible.

The lack of addressing that point any further, CP, was simply an acknowledgment that people here are either claiming they follow everything the Bible says, or they don't because a) they don't have to or b) don't choose to. What else is there to say?

I am not here to mock people's religious belief, Cp. If you feel that the Bible tells you homosexuality is wrong and that is enough for you...that is your belief and I respect it...

My point is only that in today's world...the religious arguments against homosexuality fall flat to many people because of some of the reasons I addressed...we, Christians, do not stone people to death for adultery or being overly promiscuous, we do not sacrifice animals to God, we eat pork because we now understand refridgeration, we "accept" adulterers and divorcees in our homes as friends, however flawed, and in our churches as fellow worshipers, yet many Christians accept all of this blandly only to become very impassioned when speaking out against homosexuality...

To people who are not as steeped in faith as you appear to be this seems...confusing at best. If it is a fight you feel strongly about, I feel that you need to be prepared to address those reasons if you are going to debate with people, you have every right to disagree with that.

And what I still find perpetually amusing is your need, and Pale Riders, obviously, to stereotype me in a negative light because I had the audacity to question a belief that you hold.

I believe you guys are whipped! Gem has put you in your place here.
The only question is what place is that? Are you THUMPERS or
very Holy people. Are you Holy enough to judge as you do?
Isn't there something in that Bible about that judging stuff?
Yep, I think so.

On the other hand if you just personally think homosexually is wrong,
I think that's your right and that's fine. But get off the Holy soap box,
I don't think GOD really likes that sort of thing. I think it's pretty well covered in
The BIG Book.

 

[007]

I believe you guys are whipped! Gem has put you in your place here.
The only question is what place is that? Are you THUMPERS or
very Holy people. Are you Holy enough to judge as you do?
Isn't there something in that Bible about that judging stuff?
Yep, I think so.

On the other hand if you just personally think homosexually is wrong,
I think that's your right and that's fine. But get off the Holy soap box,
I don't think GOD really likes that sort of thing. I think it's pretty well covered in
The BIG Book.

Well mr. p, you look so cute in that cheer leader outfit rooting for gem. But could you hold it down a little, and let me decide for myself if I've been "whipped" or not?

Gem, the pro homo crowd is usually very militant, and to speak out against them usually draws very caustic and vitriolic responses. I may be a little defensive of my position, but that's because of the hammering I've taken by the queer's and their supporters for stating it.

Too bad, but that's usually the way these conversations go. People are very empassioned about what they believe on this subject. So with that, now you know where I stand on it, and I don't feel I need to give any more explainations as to why. Perhaps you should explain why you believe as you do now. Maybe we can pick that apart and demonize you too then.

 

[Gem]

Pale Rider,

Please explain where I have dehumanized you? You have, perhaps, been insulted in the past by people who disagree with you. But I have not insulted you...I have not called you names...I have not belittled your opinion, in fact, I have stated several times that I respect your opinion.

If you want me to state my opinion, I will, I am not ashamed of my beliefs in the slightest. However, if you want me to state my opinion so you can be nasty about it and try to get some strange vengence on everyone who has ever mocked you...you should think about what kind of person this will make you, considering that I have NOT done those things to you.

 

[007]

Pale Rider,

Please explain where I have dehumanized you? You have, perhaps, been insulted in the past by people who disagree with you. But I have not insulted you...I have not called you names...I have not belittled your opinion, in fact, I have stated several times that I respect your opinion.

If you want me to state my opinion, I will, I am not ashamed of my beliefs in the slightest. However, if you want me to state my opinion so you can be nasty about it and try to get some strange vengence on everyone who has ever mocked you...you should think about what kind of person this will make you, considering that I have NOT done those things to you.

I didn't say specifically that you HAD been insulting or smartass to me. In fact you haven't.

You're new here, and I have to get to know where you're coming from is all. I was getting the impression that you were going to start in demonizing me and my religon, and I take that personal.

I try and not be snotty to people that haven't been snotty to me first. But once the ice is broken, you get what you give to me.

 

[Gem]

Pale Rider,

I can understand that...having become smarmy with people in other discussion boards after being attacked repeatedly, I understand completely the "oh, what the hell...they don't respect or listen to me now when I'm polite...at least I can get a little laugh out of giving them a taste of what theyve been dishing out for so long."

Lets call all the bratty stuff, implied, said, or not off...I think that we could actually have a good discussion about this if we tried

Here's my position, and I warn you...its still forming and changing as I read and learn more...

In the United States we can not make any laws or legislation regarding gay marriage because of reasons of religion. Therefore, while I respect the opinion of people who are against gay marriage because of their religious beliefs...I think that if you want to push the issue of legislation against gay marriage you have to be able to offer something OTHER than your religion.

I, to be honest, am not sure if there are enough legitimate reasons (not saying religion isn't legitimate to you...simply that you can't make a law because Christians are against something...) to make or keep gay marriage illegal...

Most importantly, I think that we need to be able to DISCUSS the issue without freaking out and screaming at eachother. I know from first hand experience that they moment you say something even remotely anti-gay marriage...like "Well, I think we should at least consider what the negatives might be..." Many in our nation are ready to call you a homophobic asshole....and I know from experience that the moment you say "Well, I think we should at least consider the reasons FOR it," Many in the nation are ready to call you an immoral atheist...and where does that leave us?

As I said in another thread, we are discussing changing something that has been a societal norm across continents and oceans and thousands of years...to those who are for gay marriage...surely you can see why such a change should not be made lightly....for those who are against it...what answer would you give NON-Christians for why this nation should not allow gay marriages?