Honoring The Sacrifices Of The Soviet Union in WWII….Really?

[DGS49]

Thank you for this post, PC. It is a good and valuable reminder of why Ronaldus Maximum rightly named the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire."

I have often pondered why simple Soviet citizens would have fought to defend the regime that victimized them, not recognizing the incredibly lethal pressures placed on them by their Communist overlords.

And as you imply today's school children will never even see a hint of their incredible inhumanity.

Pity.

 

[PoliticalChic]

...

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded, and almost entirely due to the neo-Marxist influence in our society due to Democrats/Liberals/Progressives doing public relations for them, as they share the same values and aims.

First: most of the Soviet loses were their troops killed by Stalin’s own forces. One reason they lost 20 million, while we lost 415,000 was due to the value that America placed on human life, and the lack of same interest by Bolsheviks: they don’t care about human life, a characteristic absorbed and propounded by the current Democrat Party.

...

well, this is completely true, and a major and even possibly the primary factor,

it is worth noting that having the war in your country, as opposed to on the other side of an ocean, is going to increase civilian deaths. (America is blessed)

a better, fairer, comparison might be, comparing soviet losses to french or polish losses.


on the other hand, it is also worth noting that the soviet union did start wwii as an ally of hitler and only switched sides when hitler betrayed them, not because the soviets had any problem with anything he was doing.

To see where the honor belongs you have to separate the party and the people.

See post #4. Take notes on it.

Doesn't effect my post at all. Don't the people of Russia/SU deserve credit for their bravery? Being Soviet citizens is a historical fact that can't be changed barring a "memory hole".

You should re-read this, from the OP:

World War II left over 27 million Soviet citizens dead....but only a fraction of them were killed by the Germans. Yet throughout the West. 'war crimes' is a phrase only attacked to the Nazis. When the Red Army marched, an NKVD army marched behind, with its own tanks, machine guns, firing forward....never allowing retreat. More than a million Soviet citizens joined the Nazis. Ask yourself this: why was it that the USSR, of all the Allies, had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits? Nearly one million Russian and other anti-Soviet men joined the enemy of their Soviet Army. "The Secret Betrayal" by Nikolai Tolstoy, p. 19-20.


They marched into German guns, or turned and were shot by Soviet tanks behind them.....who were aimed at THEM!

Bravery, I suppose would have been to revolt against the savages like Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin.



I don't understand what you mean by this, or what it has to do with the issue under discussion?

"Being Soviet citizens is a historical fact that can't be changed barring a "memory hole".

Did you read '1984'?
In the prescient novel, "1984," George Orwell's sort-of hero, Winston Smith, has the job "to overwrite the truth, to replace the history of what happened with a revised version. Winston enjoys his work and is good at it, yet at the same time he worries about the rewriting of history, and wants to know 'what really happened'."
Winston Smith s role in 1984 is that of the Democrat media today.

You're not separating the people from the party. SU citizenship was a political fact of life that doesn't negate personal heroism.

"citizenship"??????


They were prisoners.

 

[Sunni Man]

Yes the Russians were shooting their own not to retreat,
but the Russians, common Soviet folk fought HEROICALLY!

I am also a big fan of PoliticalChik's posts, but she is way off base on this topic. ...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Thank you for this post, PC. It is a good and valuable reminder of why Ronaldus Maximum rightly named the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire."

I have often pondered why simple Soviet citizens would have fought to defend the regime that victimized them, not recognizing the incredibly lethal pressures placed on them by their Communist overlords.

And as you imply today's school children will never even see a hint of their incredible inhumanity.

Pity.

Thank you.

I see much the same in America today, where our children are taught to hate our nation.


…Victor Kravchenko, one of the first and most influential Soviet defectors to the United States, who had written "I Chose Freedom," a searing account of life under Stalin. You can read his book on line.
Kravcheko revealed that the Communists did in reality what Winston Smith did in the novel 1984.
"Shamelessly, without so much as an explanation, it revised half a century of Russian history. I don't mean simply that it falsified some facts or gave a new interpretation of events. I mean that it deliberately stood history on its head, expunging events and inventing facts. It twisted the recent past--a past still fresh in millions of memories--into new and bizarre shapes, to conform with the version of affairs presented by the blood-purge trials and the accompanying propaganda... The roles of leading historical figures were perverted or altogether erased.... More than that, living witnesses, as far as possible, were removed. The directing staff of the Institute of Marx, Engels and Lenin in Moscow, repository of ideological truth, were removed and the more important people among them imprisoned or shot.

The new history" became possible. To brand the shame more deeply on our minds, "study" of the new version was made obligatory for all responsible Party people. History classes met nearly every night in this period and lecturers from Sverdlovsk came to our town to help hammer home the lies, while most of us fumed inwardly. Whatever human dignity remained in our character was humiliated.. But even the most gigantic lie, by dint of infinite repetition, takes root; Stalin knew this before Hitler discovered it. As I looked on I could see terrible falsehoods, at first accepted under pressure, become established as unquestioned "facts," particularly among younger people without personal experience to the contrary to bother them."

Text collection

The same is true of our media.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Yes the Russians were shooting their own not to retreat,
but the Russians, common Soviet folk fought HEROICALLY!

I am also a big fan of PoliticalChik's posts, but she is way off base on this topic. ...

Prove it.


And its 'chic.'

 

[rylah]

Yes the Russians were shooting their own not to retreat,
but the Russians, common Soviet folk fought HEROICALLY!

I am also a big fan of PoliticalChik's posts, but she is way off base on this topic. ...

Glad we can agree on something complicated.

 

[Oz and the Orchestra]

The war propaganda in support of the Marxists has never abated, and has led America to a precipice. Now, the truth.


1.An interesting and significant month, August.

August 20–25, 1944
Allied troops reach Paris. On August 25, Free French forces, supported by Allied troops, enter the French capital. By September, the Allies reach the German border; by December, virtually all of France, most of Belgium, and part of the southern Netherlands are liberated. World War II: Timeline.

Did you see any mention of Soviet troops there?


2. Government school propaganda provides two beliefs about the Soviets in WWII.

a. That they deserve gratitude and honor for their valiant efforts and great loses in the war

b. U.S. war propaganda had painted pipesmoking "Uncle Joe Stalin" as a friendly fellow, and the liberal propaganda left people to thinking of Communist Party members as lovable idealists.

Really???

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded, and almost entirely due to the neo-Marxist influence in our society due to Democrats/Liberals/Progressives doing public relations for them, as they share the same values and aims.

First: most of the Soviet loses were their troops killed by Stalin’s own forces. One reason they lost 20 million, while we lost 415,000 was due to the value that America placed on human life, and the lack of same interest by Bolsheviks: they don’t care about human life, a characteristic absorbed and propounded by the current Democrat Party.



3. "Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died As Victims of Stalin"
Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died As Victims of Stalin

And.....

World War II left over 27 million Soviet citizens dead....but only a fraction of them were killed by the Germans. Yet throughout the West. 'war crimes' is a phrase only attacked to the Nazis. When the Red Army marched, an NKVD army marched behind, with its own tanks, machine guns, firing forward....never allowing retreat. More than a million Soviet citizens joined the Nazis. Ask yourself this: why was it that the USSR, of all the Allies, had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits? Nearly one million Russian and other anti-Soviet men joined the enemy of their Soviet Army. "The Secret Betrayal" by Nikolai Tolstoy, p. 19-20.

And.....

"In 1945 Zhukov is reported to have said to US General Dwight D. Eisenhower, "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." The shear weight of numbers eventually drove the Germans back, along with the Soviet leadership's determination not to relent, whatever the cost."

Website no longer available | Heroes and killers of the 20th century

Website no longer available | Heroes and killers of the 20th century

www.moreorless.net.au

Tom Clancy has a hero combat soldier exclaim his opinion about the thugs who ran the Soviet Union, the communists:

"Misha waved his hand, looking in annoyance at the way it shook. "I have never had much respect for the chekisti. When I was leading my men, they were there-behind us. They were very efficient at shooting prisoners-prisoners that real soldiers had taken. They were also rather good at murdering people who'd been forced to retreat. I even remember one case where a chekist lieutenant took command of a tank troop and led it into a fucking swamp. At least the Germans I killed were men, fighting men. I hated them, but I could respect them for the soldiers they were. Your kind, on the other hand… perhaps we simple soldiers never really understood who the enemy was. Sometimes I wonder who has killed more Russians, the Germans-or people like you?" “The Cardinal of the Kremlin,”p. 383



So those ‘great loses’ were not at the hands of the Germans, they were by their own leaders. Someone should have told Roosevelt.

Oh…wait….they did!

Love is blind.

Ha ha ha - you stupid twisted imbecile.

You just can't resist it can you? Taking the well documented historical record WWll and twisting,restructuring, airbrushing and wholly misrepresenting it. All because your extreme right wing views, fondness of the Nazi's and hatred of communism you feel compels you.

"1.An interesting and significant month, August."

Isn't it! You then outline the allied achievements in liberating North Western Europe even including the Free French, de Gaulle and a few officers who basically flew from London to Paris backed by the allies. Wow!

You obviously have absolutely no knowledge of Geography-

" Did you see any mention of Soviet troops there?"

Ha ha.......NO, Did you expect me to?

Perhaps it might be because the soviets were over 500 miles away having liberated - Crimea, Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland single handedly, and were approaching Germany's eastern border.

The only possible way they could have been in France, Holland etc, is if they had already occupied Germany in which case the war would be over.

I am quite shocked by your ignorance!

Need to be somewhere now, but don't run away as I haven't even started your thrashing and have much to add.

 

[rightwinger]

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded,

The Soviets bore most of the burden fighting the Nazis. While we waited two and a half years to finally launch D Day, the Soviets had already been fighting three years.

The Soviets destroyed most of the German Army and inflicted most of the casualties. The Battles of Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow, Kursk all exceeded our D Day and Battle of the Bulge.

 

[Correll]

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded,

The Soviets bore most of the burden fighting the Nazis. While we waited two and a half years to finally launch D Day, the Soviets had already been fighting three years.

The Soviets destroyed most of the German Army and inflicted most of the casualties. The Battles of Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow, Kursk all exceeded our D Day and Battle of the Bulge.

what do you think of a nation that only turned on their allies the nazis, when the nazis invaded their country?

 

[rightwinger]

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded,

The Soviets bore most of the burden fighting the Nazis. While we waited two and a half years to finally launch D Day, the Soviets had already been fighting three years.

The Soviets destroyed most of the German Army and inflicted most of the casualties. The Battles of Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow, Kursk all exceeded our D Day and Battle of the Bulge.

what do you think of a nation that only turned on their allies the nazis, when the nazis invaded their country?

Not my problem.

I am only commenting on the role the Soviets played in defeating the Nazis. They bore most of the burden and won most of the war

While we invaded Normandy, most of the German Army was dedicated to fighting the Soviets

 

[rightwinger]

Militarily, the Soviets fought on the ground for four years, pushing the Wehrmacht steadily back more than 2,200 kilometers, stride after stride, a herculean effort in which not one Western soldier took part. In one showdown, summer ’43’s Battle of Kursk, two million Soviet and German troops clashed alongside 6,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft. In terms of personnel, it was more than four times D-Day’s collision.

Who defeated the Nazis?

75 years on, it is time for the West to realize Russia's key role in Germany's surrender, and for Russia to admit the Soviets' wartime crimes.

www.jpost.com

 

[Sunni Man]

Years before the war, Stalin had executed most of the Russian military leadership. So when Germany invaded, the Soviet army was poorly led, using outdated weapons, and quickly became a disorganized rabble of retreating and surrendering soldiers.
All that Stalin could do early in the war was keep throwing men at the German lines. In a desperate attempt to halt the German army's advance.
Eventually, the German army start to wear down as more and more Russians were sent to the front as cannon fodder. Then the brutal Russian winter set in, and the German advance grind to a halt.
This gave Stalin time to train a new officer core, and supply his army with the weapons America began shipping to the Soviets.
By 1943 the German offensive had stalled on the outskirts of Stalingrad and the largest tank battle the world had ever seen took place at Kursk.
After that battle, the tide of the war changed, and the now efficient Soviet war machine would fight its way to Berlin and obliterate the remains of the Third Reich. ...

Battle of Kursk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sunni Man]

It's been estimated that 90% of all the German soldiers killed in combat during WWll were killed on the Russian front. ...

 

[PoliticalChic]

The war propaganda in support of the Marxists has never abated, and has led America to a precipice. Now, the truth.


1.An interesting and significant month, August.

August 20–25, 1944
Allied troops reach Paris. On August 25, Free French forces, supported by Allied troops, enter the French capital. By September, the Allies reach the German border; by December, virtually all of France, most of Belgium, and part of the southern Netherlands are liberated. World War II: Timeline.

Did you see any mention of Soviet troops there?


2. Government school propaganda provides two beliefs about the Soviets in WWII.

a. That they deserve gratitude and honor for their valiant efforts and great loses in the war

b. U.S. war propaganda had painted pipesmoking "Uncle Joe Stalin" as a friendly fellow, and the liberal propaganda left people to thinking of Communist Party members as lovable idealists.

Really???

There is no honor or credit due to the Soviet Union because they lost 20 million in the war. The glorification of the role that the Soviets played in WWII is unfounded, and almost entirely due to the neo-Marxist influence in our society due to Democrats/Liberals/Progressives doing public relations for them, as they share the same values and aims.

First: most of the Soviet loses were their troops killed by Stalin’s own forces. One reason they lost 20 million, while we lost 415,000 was due to the value that America placed on human life, and the lack of same interest by Bolsheviks: they don’t care about human life, a characteristic absorbed and propounded by the current Democrat Party.



3. "Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died As Victims of Stalin"
Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died As Victims of Stalin

And.....

World War II left over 27 million Soviet citizens dead....but only a fraction of them were killed by the Germans. Yet throughout the West. 'war crimes' is a phrase only attacked to the Nazis. When the Red Army marched, an NKVD army marched behind, with its own tanks, machine guns, firing forward....never allowing retreat. More than a million Soviet citizens joined the Nazis. Ask yourself this: why was it that the USSR, of all the Allies, had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits? Nearly one million Russian and other anti-Soviet men joined the enemy of their Soviet Army. "The Secret Betrayal" by Nikolai Tolstoy, p. 19-20.

And.....

"In 1945 Zhukov is reported to have said to US General Dwight D. Eisenhower, "If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." The shear weight of numbers eventually drove the Germans back, along with the Soviet leadership's determination not to relent, whatever the cost."

Website no longer available | Heroes and killers of the 20th century

Website no longer available | Heroes and killers of the 20th century

www.moreorless.net.au

Tom Clancy has a hero combat soldier exclaim his opinion about the thugs who ran the Soviet Union, the communists:

"Misha waved his hand, looking in annoyance at the way it shook. "I have never had much respect for the chekisti. When I was leading my men, they were there-behind us. They were very efficient at shooting prisoners-prisoners that real soldiers had taken. They were also rather good at murdering people who'd been forced to retreat. I even remember one case where a chekist lieutenant took command of a tank troop and led it into a fucking swamp. At least the Germans I killed were men, fighting men. I hated them, but I could respect them for the soldiers they were. Your kind, on the other hand… perhaps we simple soldiers never really understood who the enemy was. Sometimes I wonder who has killed more Russians, the Germans-or people like you?" “The Cardinal of the Kremlin,”p. 383



So those ‘great loses’ were not at the hands of the Germans, they were by their own leaders. Someone should have told Roosevelt.

Oh…wait….they did!

Love is blind.

Ha ha ha - you stupid twisted imbecile.

You just can't resist it can you? Taking the well documented historical record WWll and twisting,restructuring, airbrushing and wholly misrepresenting it. All because your extreme right wing views, fondness of the Nazi's and hatred of communism you feel compels you.

"1.An interesting and significant month, August."

Isn't it! You then outline the allied achievements in liberating North Western Europe even including the Free French, de Gaulle and a few officers who basically flew from London to Paris backed by the allies. Wow!

You obviously have absolutely no knowledge of Geography-

" Did you see any mention of Soviet troops there?"

Ha ha.......NO, Did you expect me to?

Perhaps it might be because the soviets were over 500 miles away having liberated - Crimea, Hungary, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland single handedly, and were approaching Germany's eastern border.

The only possible way they could have been in France, Holland etc, is if they had already occupied Germany in which case the war would be over.

I am quite shocked by your ignorance!

Need to be somewhere now, but don't run away as I haven't even started your thrashing and have much to add.

Everything is linked, sourced and documented.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Doesn't effect my post at all. Don't the people of Russia/SU deserve credit for their bravery? Being Soviet citizens is a historical fact that can't be changed barring a "memory hole".

READ: "I am going to ignore everything you wrote/linked, because I don't like it... and say this anyway"

 

[PoliticalChic]

Years before the war, Stalin had executed most of the Russian military leadership. So when Germany invaded, the Soviet army was poorly led, using outdated weapons, and quickly became a disorganized rabble of retreating and surrendering soldiers.
All that Stalin could do early in the war was keep throwing men at the German lines. In a desperate attempt to halt the German army's advance.
Eventually, the German army start to wear down as more and more Russians were sent to the front as cannon fodder. Then the brutal Russian winter set in, and the German advance grind to a halt.
This gave Stalin time to train a new officer core, and supply his army with the weapons America began shipping to the Soviets.
By 1943 the German offensive had stalled on the outskirts of Stalingrad and the largest tank battle the world had ever seen took place at Kursk.
After that battle, the tide of the war changed, and the now efficient Soviet war machine would fight its way to Berlin and obliterate the remains of the Third Reich. ...

Battle of Kursk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"All that Stalin could do early in the war was keep throwing men at the German lines. "

1. Both Hitler and Stalin took their view from Karl Marx.

2. Stalin supported Hitler at the League of NationsHe

3. Stalin provided the resources for Hitler's Blitzkrieg.

4. ....until June 21, 1941

5. Hitler never expected to defeat Stalin's three greatest generals....December, January and February. He had three months worth of resources, which is why he attacked in June.

6."....realistically middle sized Germany could not defeat the much larger Ussr in the long term. Germany would have eventually surrendered to the western allies to prevent total occupation by the USSR ..."
So did the Red Army really singlehandedly defeat the Third Reich Stuff I Done Wrote - The Michael A. Charles Online Presence (comment)

7. "All that Stalin could do early in the war was keep throwing men at the German lines. "
Proving my point.
The Soviet people deserve no honor or gratitude: they were forces, at bayonet point, to advance.
And Stalin fought for none of America's values.....FDR's lies notwithstanding.

September 30, 1941, FDR claimed that there was freedom of religion in the USSR."The claim that Stalin's Russia allowed religious freedom was the first step in a massive pro-Soviet campaign that the White House coordinated for the duration of the war."
"Caught between Roosevelt and Stalin: America's Ambassadors to Moscow," by Dennis J. Dunn, p. 137


They fought at the point of a gun, and their leaders fought for world domination.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It's been estimated that 90% of all the German soldiers killed in combat during WWll were killed on the Russian front. ...

What does that have to do with whether the Soviets deserve any credit or gratitude?


Here's the lesson you haven't learned yet"


1. What could, should have happened?
When the (anticipated) event that Hitler would attack Stalin's Russia, as they did June 21st, 1941, America should have done nothing...no more than relaxing restrictions on exports to the Russians...but at the same time securing a quid pro quo for further assistance! Lend-Lease should not have been the automatic and unlimited buffet that it turned into!

"Finally, should the Soviet regime fall,...we should refuse to recognize a Communist government-in-exile, leaving the path clear for establishment for a non-Communist government in Russia after the war." These were the words of Loy Henderson, Soviet and Eastern European affairs expert and Foreign Service officer, as quoted by Martin Weil in "A pretty good club: The founding fathers of the U.S. Foreign Service," p. 106.


2. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, William Bullitt (Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Bullitt the first US ambassador to the Soviet Union, a post that he filled from 1933 to 1936.) warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalinthat formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.'

He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590


3. Hanson Baldwin, military critic of the New York Times, declares in his book, "Great Mistakes of the War:" 'There is no doubt whatsoever that it would have been to the interest of Britain, the United States, and the world to have allowed and indeed to have encouraged-the world's two great dictatorships to fight each other to a frazzle.'
Baldwin writes that the United States put itself "in the role-at times a disgraceful role-of fearful suppliant and propitiating ally, anxious at nearly any cost to keep Russia fighting. In retrospect, how stupid!"

 

[konradv]

Doesn't effect my post at all. Don't the people of Russia/SU deserve credit for their bravery? Being Soviet citizens is a historical fact that can't be changed barring a "memory hole".

READ: "I am going to ignore everything you wrote/linked, because I don't like it... and say this anyway"

No, I was saying that regardless of what you think of the party, the people were heroic.

 

[PoliticalChic]

5. Now…..the value of those millions of Russians slaughtered?

And the result of those millions of loses?

Wasted lives.



The Soviet Union didn’t liberate anybody, nor try to leave intact democracies with great capitalist systems, as the United States did once Roosevelt was replaced by the American, Truman, who aided France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, and the rest of Western Europe.

Instead, Eastern Europe, bequeathed to the tender mercies of Stalin by Franklin Roosevelt, had to wait for Republican President Ronald Reagan for their freedom from under communism’s boot.



And, of course, Japan, to which we gifted democracy, free market capitalism, and self-determination…and not wholesale liquidation of dissidents. Compare that to this, the 'honored' Soviet Union:

“The Katyn massacre[a] was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD ("People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs", the Soviet secret police) in April and May 1940…. 8,000 were officers imprisoned during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, another 6,000 were police officers, and the remaining 8,000 were Polish intelligentsia the Soviets deemed to be "intelligence agents, gendarmes, landowners, saboteurs, factory owners, lawyers, officials, and priests" Katyn massacre - Wikipedia



Stalin murdered those who represented not only the flower of the Polish military but of Polish society as well. Stalin’s minions had executed them all, in one of the worst single episodes of mass execution in the blood-soaked 20th Century, in order to destroy any Polish capacity for resisting a Russian occupation. And Franklin Roosevelt covered it up, and had Stalin’s propaganda broadcast.


Yet the neo-Marxists who control the Democrat Party, the media and the schools......demand gratitude and honor for their blood drenched predecessors.

 

[Moonglow]

The Soviets took the brunt of the blitzkrieg and won they deserve credit where credit is due, not due to Marxism and all that other bullshit you idiots keep spewing but because they won through determination and resisted during onslaught. Their techniques of tactics improved, their fierce fighting capabilities, their industrious nature all combine to gain the victory fighting the Nazis. To deny them their glory would be the same as to deny the glory of the victory of all the allies.