How Jesus became god'... from not being one. Bart Ehrman.

[BreezeWood]

As I said in an earlier post, the important thing for humans is not the relationship between the Father and Son, BUT our relationship to God as sinners and the GRACE offered us by the sacrifice of His Son

Actually, that is one of the most important parts of the Christian doctrine. If we drop away the Trinitarian point of view, then we will have to admit that the sacrifice was meaningless according to the Christian point.

What was the main reason for 'divine' Jesus to become a human? To make a perfect human, a lamb without any flaw.

If Jesus was any less than 'the Son of God', we cant be sure he was a flawless lamb.

WHO said that JESUS was NOT the SON of GOD???? Every angel has Divinity and the Bible refers to them, among other things, Sons of God.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

JESUS, however, sits on the Right Hand of GOD, above the angels, and you can be sure that HE was the "flawless lamb.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;:

I highly doubt that anyone sits on the right or left hands of God. I hope you dont take anthropomorphic 'features' of God literally.

Yes, the angels are the sons of God. Moreover, even humans can be considered the 'sons' of God. But it is one thing if you refer to Jesus as the son of God in Christian interpretation, and the other thing if you somehow equal him with angels with this title.

In my perception, only God can be described with the word 'perfect'. All creatures are limited in their 'perfection'. Even if we assume that 'divine' Jesus is the first and the most important creation (somehow the way the Arians did), we will have to admit that his 'perfection' is also limited. So, how can I be sure he was a flawless lamb?

Clearly god was not perfect

Why? Because He created imperfect world?

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.
perfection of the spirit when accomplished is the means for admission to the Everlasting ... abandoned for sure by christianity. the goal from birth.

 

[abu afak]

I think what you're missing is that most people, myself included, think of Darwin as a man who made a scientific contribution many years ago. It is you who have elevated Darwin to a demigod where every word he spoke or wrote, every thought he had is of cosmic importance. To you he is the Devil made flesh, to me he is merely an historical footnote.

For the idea of evolution/common descent, 'Origin of the Species' is arguably the most important (Non-Fiction) book ever written.
`

 

[esalla]

As I said in an earlier post, the important thing for humans is not the relationship between the Father and Son, BUT our relationship to God as sinners and the GRACE offered us by the sacrifice of His Son

Actually, that is one of the most important parts of the Christian doctrine. If we drop away the Trinitarian point of view, then we will have to admit that the sacrifice was meaningless according to the Christian point.

What was the main reason for 'divine' Jesus to become a human? To make a perfect human, a lamb without any flaw.

If Jesus was any less than 'the Son of God', we cant be sure he was a flawless lamb.

WHO said that JESUS was NOT the SON of GOD???? Every angel has Divinity and the Bible refers to them, among other things, Sons of God.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

JESUS, however, sits on the Right Hand of GOD, above the angels, and you can be sure that HE was the "flawless lamb.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;:

I highly doubt that anyone sits on the right or left hands of God. I hope you dont take anthropomorphic 'features' of God literally.

Yes, the angels are the sons of God. Moreover, even humans can be considered the 'sons' of God. But it is one thing if you refer to Jesus as the son of God in Christian interpretation, and the other thing if you somehow equal him with angels with this title.

In my perception, only God can be described with the word 'perfect'. All creatures are limited in their 'perfection'. Even if we assume that 'divine' Jesus is the first and the most important creation (somehow the way the Arians did), we will have to admit that his 'perfection' is also limited. So, how can I be sure he was a flawless lamb?

Clearly god was not perfect

Why? Because He created imperfect world?

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.
perfection of the spirit when accomplished is the means for admission to the Everlasting ... abandoned for sure by christianity. the goal from birth.

OK sure, if you say so.

 

[BreezeWood]

Actually simpleton dna and life are the same thing as all life is dna based

Man u is tupid

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA. There are self-replicating molecules and proteins (prions) that may have preceded DNA life.

.

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA.

.
the first form of life in the universe were the periodic elements -
.

.
the elements are responsible for dna and everything in the universe ...

 

[esalla]

I think what you're missing is that most people, myself included, think of Darwin as a man who made a scientific contribution many years ago. It is you who have elevated Darwin to a demigod where every word he spoke or wrote, every thought he had is of cosmic importance. To you he is the Devil made flesh, to me he is merely an historical footnote.

For the idea of evolution/common descent, 'Origin of the Species' is arguably the most important (Non-Fiction) book ever written.
`

It's pure fiction kid, Darwin made the entire thing up

 

[esalla]

Actually simpleton dna and life are the same thing as all life is dna based

Man u is tupid

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA. There are self-replicating molecules and proteins (prions) that may have preceded DNA life.

.

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA.

.
the first form of life in the universe were the periodic elements -
.
View attachment 386626
.
the elements are responsible for dna and everything in the universe ...

So how come gold doesn't reproduce?

Is schizophrenia fun? I mean you can be anything you choose right?

How come scientist all agree that Hydrogen was first?

Because it helps airheads float, that's why

 

[BreezeWood]

As I said in an earlier post, the important thing for humans is not the relationship between the Father and Son, BUT our relationship to God as sinners and the GRACE offered us by the sacrifice of His Son

Actually, that is one of the most important parts of the Christian doctrine. If we drop away the Trinitarian point of view, then we will have to admit that the sacrifice was meaningless according to the Christian point.

What was the main reason for 'divine' Jesus to become a human? To make a perfect human, a lamb without any flaw.

If Jesus was any less than 'the Son of God', we cant be sure he was a flawless lamb.

WHO said that JESUS was NOT the SON of GOD???? Every angel has Divinity and the Bible refers to them, among other things, Sons of God.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

JESUS, however, sits on the Right Hand of GOD, above the angels, and you can be sure that HE was the "flawless lamb.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;:

I highly doubt that anyone sits on the right or left hands of God. I hope you dont take anthropomorphic 'features' of God literally.

Yes, the angels are the sons of God. Moreover, even humans can be considered the 'sons' of God. But it is one thing if you refer to Jesus as the son of God in Christian interpretation, and the other thing if you somehow equal him with angels with this title.

In my perception, only God can be described with the word 'perfect'. All creatures are limited in their 'perfection'. Even if we assume that 'divine' Jesus is the first and the most important creation (somehow the way the Arians did), we will have to admit that his 'perfection' is also limited. So, how can I be sure he was a flawless lamb?

Clearly god was not perfect

Why? Because He created imperfect world?

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.
perfection of the spirit when accomplished is the means for admission to the Everlasting ... abandoned for sure by christianity. the goal from birth.

OK sure, if you say so.

.

OK sure, if you say so.

.
you are doomed to imperfection is your reply ... have at it.

 

[BreezeWood]

Actually simpleton dna and life are the same thing as all life is dna based

Man u is tupid

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA. There are self-replicating molecules and proteins (prions) that may have preceded DNA life.

.

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA.

.
the first form of life in the universe were the periodic elements -
.
View attachment 386626
.
the elements are responsible for dna and everything in the universe ...

So how come gold doesn't reproduce?

Is schizophrenia fun? I mean you can be anything you choose right?

How come scientist all agree that Hydrogen was first?

Because it helps airheads float, that's why

.

So how come gold doesn't reproduce?

.
because the elements are the building blocks - to build your dna, obviously that is where physiology originates.

 

[esalla]

As I said in an earlier post, the important thing for humans is not the relationship between the Father and Son, BUT our relationship to God as sinners and the GRACE offered us by the sacrifice of His Son

Actually, that is one of the most important parts of the Christian doctrine. If we drop away the Trinitarian point of view, then we will have to admit that the sacrifice was meaningless according to the Christian point.

What was the main reason for 'divine' Jesus to become a human? To make a perfect human, a lamb without any flaw.

If Jesus was any less than 'the Son of God', we cant be sure he was a flawless lamb.

WHO said that JESUS was NOT the SON of GOD???? Every angel has Divinity and the Bible refers to them, among other things, Sons of God.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

JESUS, however, sits on the Right Hand of GOD, above the angels, and you can be sure that HE was the "flawless lamb.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;:

I highly doubt that anyone sits on the right or left hands of God. I hope you dont take anthropomorphic 'features' of God literally.

Yes, the angels are the sons of God. Moreover, even humans can be considered the 'sons' of God. But it is one thing if you refer to Jesus as the son of God in Christian interpretation, and the other thing if you somehow equal him with angels with this title.

In my perception, only God can be described with the word 'perfect'. All creatures are limited in their 'perfection'. Even if we assume that 'divine' Jesus is the first and the most important creation (somehow the way the Arians did), we will have to admit that his 'perfection' is also limited. So, how can I be sure he was a flawless lamb?

Clearly god was not perfect

Why? Because He created imperfect world?

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.

Because perfect only exist in fantasy

.
perfection of the spirit when accomplished is the means for admission to the Everlasting ... abandoned for sure by christianity. the goal from birth.

OK sure, if you say so.

.

OK sure, if you say so.

.
you are doomed to imperfection is your reply ... have at it.

You bought Apple right Forest?

 

[alang1216]

If not by biogenesis and evolution, how did life come to exist?

Biogenesis means the production of matter from life, so biogenesis can not create life. The term you are trying to use is abiogenesis, the fact that you do not know the difference is because you are just a parrot repeating what you think you heard and are not thinking. All we know for sure about life is that it is based on the most complex and productive code known that in no way could write itself. The code for the simplest life contains thousands of lines of molecular code that all are useless without the other, so an intelligence had to write them

Thanks for proofreading. I asked how did life come to exist and you replied an 'intelligence' was involved. Since you didn't say how life come to be it is obvious you don't know. You don't know how life was created but you claim you know how it wasn't created. Rather flimsy logic I think.

 

[esalla]

If not by biogenesis and evolution, how did life come to exist?

Biogenesis means the production of matter from life, so biogenesis can not create life. The term you are trying to use is abiogenesis, the fact that you do not know the difference is because you are just a parrot repeating what you think you heard and are not thinking. All we know for sure about life is that it is based on the most complex and productive code known that in no way could write itself. The code for the simplest life contains thousands of lines of molecular code that all are useless without the other, so an intelligence had to write them

Thanks for proofreading. I asked how did life come to exist and you replied an 'intelligence' was involved. Since you didn't say how life come to be it is obvious you don't know. You don't know how life was created but you claim you know how it wasn't created. Rather flimsy logic I think.

Actually people like you who know how life arose are quite schizophrenic. Again there is no way that the dna code for the simplest form of life could write itself in a dead lifeless pond.

Which microbe is the simplest organism depends on your definition of a living organism. If viruses, prions, satellites, nanobes, nanobacteria (non-free-living sub-bacterial organisms) are excluded, the simplest free-living organism known is Mycoplasma genitalium, with a genome of only 580,000 base pairs and 482 protein-coding genes. Mycoplasma genitalium is a tiny parasitic bacteria that lives in the digestive and genital tracts of primates.

Now how do 482 genes and 580,000 base pairs of code spontaneously write themselves? Please demonstrate

 

[james bond]

I think what you're missing is that most people, myself included, think of Darwin as a man who made a scientific contribution many years ago. It is you who have elevated Darwin to a demigod where every word he spoke or wrote, every thought he had is of cosmic importance. To you he is the Devil made flesh, to me he is merely an historical footnote.

For the idea of evolution/common descent, 'Origin of the Species' is arguably the most important (Non-Fiction) book ever written.
`

I know. Will you take him on the evolution side? We don't want him as he likes to disagree and then make silly, stupid asf, and ridiculous statements.

 

[esalla]

I think what you're missing is that most people, myself included, think of Darwin as a man who made a scientific contribution many years ago. It is you who have elevated Darwin to a demigod where every word he spoke or wrote, every thought he had is of cosmic importance. To you he is the Devil made flesh, to me he is merely an historical footnote.

For the idea of evolution/common descent, 'Origin of the Species' is arguably the most important (Non-Fiction) book ever written.
`

I know. Will you take him on the evolution side? We don't want him as he likes to disagree and then make silly, stupid asf, and ridiculous statements.

Yes Mr. Bond, ifm um u sey so

 

[james bond]

God will be better than you. Trust me.

I love how you have constructed a narrative of something you don't believe in. What could possibly go wrong with that.

I am still not seeing where God told you He will judge you. Was that in a phone call with Him?

Why should I trust you? Has God phoned you?

I'm not the one stating as fact that God will judge you, now am I?

So again... how do you know that God will judge you?

Everything I know about God is admittedly hearsay. Can you say anything different?

Yes. I can. Through reason and experience.

I've seen examples of your reasoning so I'll ask what in your experience could only have been from God?

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So you judge the universe and demand it have purpose?

I'm not sure how you made that leap in logic, please feel free to explain.

In the meantime, let me provide my basis for my belief...

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

So why is it that YOU believe there is no purpose to the universe?

I thought alang1216 had better arguments, but he's become a flat Earther who has fallen off the edge. He stated, "I don't know and I don't care enough to research it" as his answer to something basic Darwin said about how old the Earth is.

 

[alang1216]

Actually simpleton dna and life are the same thing as all life is dna based

Man u is tupid

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA. There are self-replicating molecules and proteins (prions) that may have preceded DNA life.

They would have to had two things; long chains that mimicked proteins and they would have had to fold themselves in exactly the correct sequence. You might as well call it a miracle.

Maybe, we'll likely never know for sure what happened. Before there was life there may well have been molecules that were capable of taking atoms in their environment and adding them to the end of their own chain. As the chains grew they'd occasionally break with the sub-pieces starting the process anew. Growth and reproduction. Natural selection would then kick in and enhance the process. Call it a miracle or call it evolution.

 

[alang1216]

If it is possible for it to exist through the laws of nature it eventually will.

Really? If I put 100 monkeys on typewriters it is possible one may write Hamlet. Is that your argument?

Ok, prove it. Because I don't believe that is possible.

The laws of nature, however, are hardwired to produce intelligence.

If you're willing to wait an infinite amount of time everything is inevitable. Including both of these.

No. Not everything is inevitable. Only the things which are potential under the laws of nature are inevitable. Such as the molecular machinery of life....

Beautiful

I grilled up some nice portobello mushroom 'burgers' last night and it only took a 1/2 hour. Imagine the meal I could cook up if I have 4.5 billion years to do it.

 

[alang1216]

Not sure how anyone can watch that video and not know that life and intelligence was preordained by the laws of nature.

Are humans the first and only intelligent species on earth? If so it took 4.5 billion years and innumerable accidents to get to us, and one asteroid strike could have wiped out every intelligent creature on the planet.

 

[ding]

Actually simpleton dna and life are the same thing as all life is dna based

Man u is tupid

Has this always been the case? Maybe not. The first thing that was "life" (subject to natural selection and evolution) may have been much simpler than DNA. There are self-replicating molecules and proteins (prions) that may have preceded DNA life.

They would have to had two things; long chains that mimicked proteins and they would have had to fold themselves in exactly the correct sequence. You might as well call it a miracle.

Maybe, we'll likely never know for sure what happened. Before there was life there may well have been molecules that were capable of taking atoms in their environment and adding them to the end of their own chain. As the chains grew they'd occasionally break with the sub-pieces starting the process anew. Growth and reproduction. Natural selection would then kick in and enhance the process. Call it a miracle or call it evolution.

There's no biological evolution without a living organism. And there's no living organism without folding instructions for the molecular machines. Molecular machines don't operate randomly. You wouldn't exist if they did. No one would. Molecular machines follow instructions. Life did not happen by accident. Life is programmed into the laws of nature.

 

[alang1216]

God will be better than you. Trust me.

I love how you have constructed a narrative of something you don't believe in. What could possibly go wrong with that.

I am still not seeing where God told you He will judge you. Was that in a phone call with Him?

Why should I trust you? Has God phoned you?

I'm not the one stating as fact that God will judge you, now am I?

So again... how do you know that God will judge you?

Everything I know about God is admittedly hearsay. Can you say anything different?

Yes. I can. Through reason and experience.

I've seen examples of your reasoning so I'll ask what in your experience could only have been from God?

It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

So you judge the universe and demand it have purpose?

I'm not sure how you made that leap in logic, please feel free to explain.

In the meantime, let me provide my basis for my belief...

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

So why is it that YOU believe there is no purpose to the universe?

You judge it is obvious that if the material world were created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have intentional purpose. Maybe that is not what spirit does, who are you say?

Crystals are created by the geometry of their constituents. Is there an intelligence that places every atom or molecule in their place?

I don't believe wishing makes things real. I see no evidence of purpose.

 

[ding]

If it is possible for it to exist through the laws of nature it eventually will.

Really? If I put 100 monkeys on typewriters it is possible one may write Hamlet. Is that your argument?

Ok, prove it. Because I don't believe that is possible.

The laws of nature, however, are hardwired to produce intelligence.

If you're willing to wait an infinite amount of time everything is inevitable. Including both of these.

No. Not everything is inevitable. Only the things which are potential under the laws of nature are inevitable. Such as the molecular machinery of life....

Beautiful

I grilled up some nice portobello mushroom 'burgers' last night and it only took a 1/2 hour. Imagine the meal I could cook up if I have 4.5 billion years to do it.

You sure do judge God harshly. I suppose if you were God you would have just used magic to create everything at once. I for one find it immensely more interesting and incredible the way God did it. It's funny how you criticize JamesBond for believing everything was created 6000 years ago and criticize God for not creating everything 6000 years ago. I don't believe it is possible for you to have an honest discussion.

When I asked you to provide a realistic perception of God, you couldn't. Do you remember? It seems you don't have the same limitation in providing unrealistic perceptions of God.