I have a question

[hobelim]

I didn't see his opinion backed up by anything substantial, like scientific proof.

He started a seminary with Dr. Norman Geisler. Not many people can do that these days.
They're the closest thing to an authority on the Bible.

What is your authority?

I'm a proof kind of a person. So what if he started a seminary...? That's not proof. Next.

Sure but where is your diploma from bible school run by people who don't know what they are talking about which certifies that you don't know what you are talking about?

 

[Chuckt]

I didn't see his opinion backed up by anything substantial, like scientific proof.

He started a seminary with Dr. Norman Geisler. Not many people can do that these days.
They're the closest thing to an authority on the Bible.

What is your authority?

I'm a proof kind of a person. So what if he started a seminary...? That's not proof. Next.

The law of evidence says we go by people who have credentials before we go by people like yourself who hasn't stated any credentials.

If you were getting surgery, you want someone who has done a procedure many many times and not someone like yourself who has set themselves up as an authority without any credentials.

 

[hobelim]

He started a seminary with Dr. Norman Geisler. Not many people can do that these days.
They're the closest thing to an authority on the Bible.

What is your authority?

I'm a proof kind of a person. So what if he started a seminary...? That's not proof. Next.

The law of evidence says we go by people who have credentials before we go by people like yourself who hasn't stated any credentials.

If you were getting surgery, you want someone who has done a procedure many many times and not someone like yourself who has set themselves up as an authority without any credentials.

apparently, in spite of your magnificent education, many accolades, and framed diploma proudly displayed, you remain without a clue.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I'm a proof kind of a person. So what if he started a seminary...? That's not proof. Next.

The law of evidence says we go by people who have credentials before we go by people like yourself who hasn't stated any credentials.

If you were getting surgery, you want someone who has done a procedure many many times and not someone like yourself who has set themselves up as an authority without any credentials.

apparently, in spite of your magnificent education, many accolades, and framed diploma proudly displayed, you remain without a clue.

What basis are you judging Chuck's understanding from, Hobelim? How can you critique that which you know little about?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

"I'd rather be drawn and quartered."

You will be... in Hell!

Woe is me!

But at least you and every other truth and life loving unbeliever be there with me......

Well before ya'll decide to go there because you think this is funny, I want both of you to go look at the Testimony of Believers thread and see the first video about Ian McCormack and what happened to him after he got stung by five boxer jelly fish. He saw heaven and met the Lord. I want you to go watch that video and then make your decision. You and Mona are surely sensible enough to be willing to listen to one testimony about a man who met the LORD before making such a decision about your eternal lives! Aren't you??? Of course you are, Hobelim. Now go watch that video and hear what Ian McCormack has to say about it before you make up your mind. Thank you. God loves both of you and so do I and I do not want either of you to land in hell! Please! Watch the video first! Then decide! - Jeri

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Hobelim! Are you going to go watch that video?

 

[hobelim]

The law of evidence says we go by people who have credentials before we go by people like yourself who hasn't stated any credentials.

If you were getting surgery, you want someone who has done a procedure many many times and not someone like yourself who has set themselves up as an authority without any credentials.

apparently, in spite of your magnificent education, many accolades, and framed diploma proudly displayed, you remain without a clue.

What basis are you judging Chuck's understanding from, Hobelim? How can you critique that which you know little about?

I know enough to recognize bull when I smell it and it is coming directly out of chucks head.

That being said, any person who tries to assert authority on a story in scripture by taking a stand that what amount to fairy tales, educational stories that convey hidden meaning using metaphors, analogies, homonyms, hyperbole, etc., are the literal truth demonstrates a complete absence of understanding.

What type of salvation do you think you have if you don't know that?

 

[hobelim]

Hobelim! Are you going to go watch that video?

is there any gratuitous sex and violence involved?

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Hobelim! Are you going to go watch that video?

is there any gratuitous sex and violence involved?

Watch the video, McGhee. Then tell me what you think. It won't kill you to watch one video of Ian McCormick and the thread is at the top of the board under the Believers Testimonies. It wouldn't hurt you to listen to the testimony from the 11 yr old who went to heaven either because you will surely not be able to deny there is no explanation for either story except that both the man and the eleven year old boy spoke to the Lord! Tell me what you think. I'll be waiting. Thanks, Hobelim.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

apparently, in spite of your magnificent education, many accolades, and framed diploma proudly displayed, you remain without a clue.

What basis are you judging Chuck's understanding from, Hobelim? How can you critique that which you know little about?

I know enough to recognize bull when I smell it and it is coming directly out of chucks head.

That being said, any person who tries to assert authority on a story in scripture by taking a stand that what amount to fairy tales, educational stories that convey hidden meaning using metaphors, analogies, homonyms, hyperbole, etc., are the literal truth demonstrates a complete absence of understanding.

What type of salvation do you think you have if you don't know that?

I just remembered another testimony I saw a long time ago about an atheist who didn't believe in heaven or hell until he got in an accident and died and saw hell and then he was revived and told the story about it. Today? That man is a believer in the Lord Jesus and you need to hear his story too, Hobelim! I will go find it! Sit tight!~

 

[The Irish Ram]

I am not speaking of sinless perfection, Irish Ram. I am speaking of living holy and you and I both know that the false gospel is not teaching holy living and obedience to Christ.

Those who endure until the end the same shall be saved.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with him, if we disown him, he will also disown us.

And again in 2 Timothy 2: 19.......everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness...

Look at the words of Jesus one more time and notice something here........



Then you will handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase in wickedness, the love of MOST will grow cold, BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. - Matthew 24:9 - 13



At that time many will "turn away from the faith" and will betray and hate each other.. these are believers who are not entering in to their eternal reward even though they had accepted Christ and were in the faith prior. Why? They turned back to their sin and followed him no more.. They are the ones spoken of in Matthew 22 who the King said, Did not deserve to come. Then he invited those out on the highways and byways to come in so that his banquet hall could be filled.

These ones did not "endure until the end" as Jesus said we must. So we will endure until the end and we will enter in. Because without holiness no one is going to see the Lord. It's in the book. Let us believe God and take him at his Word. He said Be ye holy because He is holy. He didn't say heaven is a refuge for sinners. That is not a scripture, Irish Ram.

We have to stay with the Word of God here. The Word of God says in 1 John 3: 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils works. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are. Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1 John 3: 7 - 10

Heaven is not a refuge for sinners. Heaven is the reward of the righteous who live holy unto the Lord here on earth and endure until the end.

What was righteous about Samson's life?
The man on the cross next to Jesus was on the cross because of his unrighteous lifestyle. And yet there they are.......

Jeri, sinless perfection is what I am talking about and the only condition under which we enter Heaven. It is the result of the gift of salvation, not works.
You can live the holiest of lives and endure till the end and still be covered in sin.

If doing your best is the criteria for entering Heaven, then Jesus was wrong. He said the only way to Heaven is through His work on the cross. It has nothing to do with our work no matter how diligent we are.
If you rely on yourself to get into Heaven, you are never going to see Heaven. Nor would I. Sin is a blood issue. The only way to rid yourself of sin is the pure blood transfusion of Christ.
David didn't live a holy life. Neither did Paul. And yet you'll find them both in Heaven, along with the rest of us disobedient:

Matthew 5:19-20
So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven.

Notice they are still saved, but not all that righteous, which means something other than obedience was the factor that saved them.

Paul endured to the end. He ran the good race. And he is a saint. And this is his description of himself:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief .“

One man took us down and one man raised us back up:

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; < (Adam) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is not a self manufactured state. It is a gift.
Living for the Lord will benefit you greatly at the Bema Judgement. It has nothing to do with your salvation. If it did, Christ would have said there are several ways to the Father.
But instead we are told this:

“there is none righteous, no not one. . .(Romans 3:10)

Heaven is where sinners go (just like Paul and the others,) that have accepted the gift of righteousness that only one man has the authority and ability to offer us.
You can lead an exemplary life, but without the blood of Christ, you will be pleading your case at the White Throne Judgement.

 

[The Irish Ram]

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. ...

The bible is all hearsay, written a really long time after the events. It's just like someone today writing down Martin Luther King's speeches from memory, or word of mouth. Would be total crap wouldn't you say?

Then Peter was lying when he said he was an eyewitness? Where was Matthew? John? Was no one alive to witness the miracles Jesus wrought? Did the Rabbi's live after or during the resurrection?

If the Bible is not the inspired word of God, and the work of mere men then you should be able to replicate what man accomplished.
Am awaiting your prophecy concerning Israel............

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I am not speaking of sinless perfection, Irish Ram. I am speaking of living holy and you and I both know that the false gospel is not teaching holy living and obedience to Christ.

Those who endure until the end the same shall be saved.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with him, if we disown him, he will also disown us.

And again in 2 Timothy 2: 19.......everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness...

Look at the words of Jesus one more time and notice something here........



Then you will handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase in wickedness, the love of MOST will grow cold, BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. - Matthew 24:9 - 13



At that time many will "turn away from the faith" and will betray and hate each other.. these are believers who are not entering in to their eternal reward even though they had accepted Christ and were in the faith prior. Why? They turned back to their sin and followed him no more.. They are the ones spoken of in Matthew 22 who the King said, Did not deserve to come. Then he invited those out on the highways and byways to come in so that his banquet hall could be filled.

These ones did not "endure until the end" as Jesus said we must. So we will endure until the end and we will enter in. Because without holiness no one is going to see the Lord. It's in the book. Let us believe God and take him at his Word. He said Be ye holy because He is holy. He didn't say heaven is a refuge for sinners. That is not a scripture, Irish Ram.

We have to stay with the Word of God here. The Word of God says in 1 John 3: 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils works. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are. Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1 John 3: 7 - 10

Heaven is not a refuge for sinners. Heaven is the reward of the righteous who live holy unto the Lord here on earth and endure until the end.

What was righteous about Samson's life?
The man on the cross next to Jesus was on the cross because of his unrighteous lifestyle. And yet there they are.......

Jeri, sinless perfection is what I am talking about and the only condition under which we enter Heaven. It is the result of the gift of salvation, not works.
You can live the holiest of lives and endure till the end and still be covered in sin.

If doing your best is the criteria for entering Heaven, then Jesus was wrong. He said the only way to Heaven is through His work on the cross. It has nothing to do with our work no matter how diligent we are.
If you rely on yourself to get into Heaven, you are never going to see Heaven. Nor would I. Sin is a blood issue. The only way to rid yourself of sin is the pure blood transfusion of Christ.
David didn't live a holy life. Neither did Paul. And yet you'll find them both in Heaven, along with the rest of us disobedient:

Matthew 5:19-20
So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven.

Notice they are still saved, but not all that righteous, which means something other than obedience was the factor that saved them.

Paul endured to the end. He ran the good race. And he is a saint. And this is his description of himself:



One man took us down and one man raised us back up:

Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; < (Adam) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is not a self manufactured state. It is a gift.
Living for the Lord will benefit you greatly at the Bema Judgement. It has nothing to do with your salvation. If it did, Christ would have said there are several ways to the Father.
But instead we are told this:

&#8220;there is none righteous, no not one. . .(Romans 3:10)

Heaven is where sinners go (just like Paul and the others,) that have accepted the gift of righteousness that only one man has the authority and ability to offer us.
You can lead an exemplary life, but without the blood of Christ, you will be pleading your case at the White Throne Judgement.

It is because of the work of the Cross which Jesus did that you "can" lead an exemplary life and walk as Jesus did. Which is what the believer is told to do, Irish Ram. Before you were a christian who believed on Jesus? You couldn't do it. Afterwards? You not only can. You must.

The path is narrow and the false teachers who are teaching a wide is the road - Jesus did it all and you can keep right on sinning message - are going to pay a very high price for what they have done in misleading people.

It is a narrow path and few will find it Jesus said. Just make sure you are the one who does. That is all I can tell you. It's the Word of God. The bible is quite clear about it. Without holiness no one will see the Lord. It is written.

 

[pacer]

It is written.

There is no arbitrary interpretation.

 

[Chuckt]

apparently, in spite of your magnificent education, many accolades, and framed diploma proudly displayed, you remain without a clue.

What basis are you judging Chuck's understanding from, Hobelim? How can you critique that which you know little about?

I know enough to recognize bull when I smell it and it is coming directly out of chucks head.

That being said, any person who tries to assert authority on a story in scripture by taking a stand that what amount to fairy tales, educational stories that convey hidden meaning using metaphors, analogies, homonyms, hyperbole, etc., are the literal truth demonstrates a complete absence of understanding.

What type of salvation do you think you have if you don't know that?

My instructor for college was on the Mayor's commission for literacy and she gave us the rules for evidence. I could post it tonight if there is doubt or this week when I have a chance but I'll take my instructor's name off of it but I'm not sure it fits in the religion and ethics category.

I believe the Bible is historically accurate. William F. Albright was a respected scholar and I can see by the Wikipedia article that newer archeologists have sought to discredit him with new methods.

The Bible has predictive prophecy.

" fairy tales, educational stories that convey hidden meaning using metaphors, analogies, homonyms, hyperbole, etc., are the literal truth demonstrates a complete absence of understanding"

If you approach the Bible from hatred, I think that I can't talk to you while you are in that online tone with me. I interpret the Bible from what I believe is a rational point of view which means that I approach the Bible honestly and I try to use academic sources or the best pastors or scholarship that I can afford. I try my best to weed out false teaches who might try to influence me.

I try to treat the Bible with honesty and all I can do is ask you to do the same.

 

[MonaGonna]

The bible is all hearsay, written a really long time after the events. It's just like someone today writing down Martin Luther King's speeches from memory, or word of mouth. Would be total crap wouldn't you say?

Then Peter was lying when he said he was an eyewitness? Where was Matthew? John? Was no one alive to witness the miracles Jesus wrought? Did the Rabbi's live after or during the resurrection?

If the Bible is not the inspired word of God, and the work of mere men then you should be able to replicate what man accomplished.
Am awaiting your prophecy concerning Israel............

Ever hear of Nostradamus? Predicting stuff isn't a fucking miracle, I guess.
Btw, Israel will get nuked. But that's no miracle prediction either, lol.
Those books Matthew and all that are not actually written by them but were written much later, generations. Unless you have a link to real proof.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

It is written.

There is no arbitrary interpretation.

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

This message was written to the Believers. Not the un-believers.

It is written:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy, without holiness no one will see the Lord. - Hebrews 12: 14

Then it goes on in further explanation to the Believers he is speaking to:

It is written:

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit his blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. - Hebrews 12: 15 - 17

And again it is written:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only the fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy under the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctifies him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people, <-------that is New Testament teaching not Old Testament - Amen?
And the final verse right after that is : It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - That is Hebrews 10: 26 - 31 I just quoted for you guys.

God loves you, Pacer. How much longer must his Spirit strive with you on the matter of your own salvation? Indeed, how much longer must God's Spirit strive even with his own people on the matter of holiness, coming back to him fully, this board is full of people trying to wiggle! Our past sins have been forgiven! We've been washed in the Blood of the Lamb! YES! The idea was that after that we stop sinning and live unto the Lord holy lives! The word says IF we sin and confess and turn from our sin he is faithful to forgive us. NOT When! But "If" .... See the difference?

Do you know what Holy means? Tell me, Pacer.

 

[Chuckt]

The bible is all hearsay, written a really long time after the events. It's just like someone today writing down Martin Luther King's speeches from memory, or word of mouth. Would be total crap wouldn't you say?

Then Peter was lying when he said he was an eyewitness? Where was Matthew? John? Was no one alive to witness the miracles Jesus wrought? Did the Rabbi's live after or during the resurrection?

If the Bible is not the inspired word of God, and the work of mere men then you should be able to replicate what man accomplished.
Am awaiting your prophecy concerning Israel............

Ever hear of Nostradamus? Predicting stuff isn't a fucking miracle, I guess.
Btw, Israel will get nuked. But that's no miracle prediction either, lol.
Those books Matthew and all that are not actually written by them but were written much later, generations. Unless you have a link to real proof.

I've tried to discredit Nostradamus. Some of his prophecies are too general and I watch people trying to interpret them but their interpretations don't match what he said.

I have a list of 300 prophecies in the Bible. What list do you have? I have listened to pastors explain some prophecies and I don't have a problem with how they explain them. I wish I had more time to explain the prophecies and teach them.

There are prophecies in Matthew that will come true but it will be bad for you if you wait that long and if they come true in your lifetime.

No country has wandered the earth as long as Israel and kept their national identity and come back to their land. It would be more likely for you to hear the Seneca Indians ask for their land (New York) back.

 

[pacer]

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

Jeremiah, we have a translation of a translation of a translation, and so on. None of the versions of Bible is a "direct translation" from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek Bible. A lot has been lost in the translation.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

Jeremiah, we have a translation of a translation of a translation, and so on. None of the versions of Bible is a "direct translation" from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek Bible. A lot has been lost in the translation.

Do not attempt to go down that road with me, Pacer. Because it will avail you nothing.

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today. I will quote for you what one Professor said although I could quote fifty or more yet this one is sufficent.

From the book Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Chapter 1 The Uniqueness of the Bible

Professor M. Montiero-Williams, former Boden professor of Sanskrit, spent 42 years studying Eastern books and said in comparing them with the Bible:

Pile them, if you will, on the left side of your study table, but place your own Holy Bible on the right side - all by itself, all alone - and with a wide gap between them, For, . . . there is a gulf between it and the so-called sacred books of the East which severs the one from the other utterly, hopelessly and forever . . . a veritable gulf which cannot be bridged over by any science of religious thought.

And now I am typing out the words of Josh McDowell, author of the book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict:

The bible is unique. It is a Book "different from all others" in the following ways ( plus a multitude more ) :

UNIQUE IN ITS CONTINUITY. Here is a book:

1. Written over 1,500 year span.
2. Written over 40 generations.
3. Written by over 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars, etc.:

Moses, a political leader, trained in the universities of Egypt.
Peter, a fisherman
Amos, a herdsman
Joshua, a military general
Nehemiah, a cupbearer
Daniel, a prime minister
Luke, a doctor
Solomon, a king
Matthew, a tax collector
Paul, a rabbi

4. Written in different places:

Moses in the wilderness
Jeremiah in a dungeon
Daniel on a hillside and in a palace
Paul inside prison walls
Luke while traveling
John on the isle of Patmos
Others in the rigors of a military campaign

5. Written at different times:
David in times of war
Solomon in times of peace

6 Written in different moods:

Some writing during different moods:

Some writing from heights of joy and others writing from the depths of sorrow and despair.

7. Written on three continents

Asia, Africa, and Europe

8. Written in three languages:

Hebrew: Was the Language of the Old Testament.

In II Kings 18: 26 - 28 called "the language of Judah."
In Isaiah 19:18 called "the language of Canaan."

Aramaic: Was the "common language" of the Near East until the time of Alexander the Great ( 6th Century B.C. - 4th Century B.C. )

Greek: New testament language. Was the international language at the time of Christ.

9. It's subject matter includes hundreds of contraversial subjects. A contraversial subject is one which would create opposing opinions mentioned or discussed.

Biblical authors spoke on hundreds of contraversial subjects with harmony and continuity from Genesis to Revelation. There is one unfolding story: "Gods redemption of man. "

From page 16 Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.. the 9 power points written by Josh McDowell -

let me conclude with his 10th.. here it is : Conclusion of continuity:

A representative of the Great Books of the Western World came to my house recruiting salesmen for their series. He spread out the chart of the Great Books of the Western World series.

He spent five minutes talking to us about the Great Books of the Western World series, and we spent an hour and a half talking to him about the Greatest Book.

I challenged him to take just 10 of the authors, all from one walk of life, one generation, one place, one time, one mood, one continent, one language, and just one contraversial subject ( the Bible speaks on hundreds with harmony and agreement )

then I asked him: Would they ( the authors ) agree? He paused and then replied, No! What would you have I retorted? Immediately he said, " A conglomeration".

Two days later he commited his life to Jesus Christ. ( the theme of the Bible )

Why all this? Very simple! Any person sincerely seeking truth would at least consider a book with the above unique qualifications!!

Quoted from Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict - I have no link - I typed this all out by hand from the following pages ---->page 15, 16, 17
____________________________________________________________________
Let's stop here and I will tell you this, Pacer. You are not going to start trying to discredit the authenticity of the bible with me. I won't have it.

You are going to listen to me or I am going to have to leave you to yourself. This is not burger king here. You do not get it your way.
You get it Gods way or no way at all.

If you want the truth I will give you all of my time to deliver it to you but if you are going to use discussions such as this to achieve your own agenda then there shall be no discussions. My time belongs to the LORD and you are not going to waste "His Time" like that.

Think it over and let me know. In the meantime I am going to dinner. See you later, God willing. - Jeri