I have a question

[pacer]

I stand by my comment. There is no one arbitrary interpretation.

 

[Chuckt]

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

Jeremiah, we have a translation of a translation of a translation, and so on. None of the versions of Bible is a "direct translation" from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek Bible. A lot has been lost in the translation.

Pacer,

Nothing was lost. The Jews did not have the same illumination and they were scared of God so that is why they told Moses to talk to God alone and Moses kept the veil on his head because Moses didn't want them to know the glory was departing from them.

The trinity wasn't revealed to them so that is why the Tanakh uses the word "angels ".

I told a joke to a German and she translated it to German and she laughed twice because nothing was lost in translation.

There are more things we may not know know because God hasn't revealed it to us yet.

 

[pacer]

I do not agree that nothing is lost in the translation but I will defer to your knowledge of the subject.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It is written.

There is no arbitrary interpretation.

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

This message was written to the Believers. Not the un-believers.

It is written:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy, without holiness no one will see the Lord. - Hebrews 12: 14

Then it goes on in further explanation to the Believers he is speaking to:

It is written:

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit his blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. - Hebrews 12: 15 - 17

And again it is written:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only the fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy under the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctifies him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people, <-------that is New Testament teaching not Old Testament - Amen?
And the final verse right after that is : It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - That is Hebrews 10: 26 - 31 I just quoted for you guys.

God loves you, Pacer. How much longer must his Spirit strive with you on the matter of your own salvation? Indeed, how much longer must God's Spirit strive even with his own people on the matter of holiness, coming back to him fully, this board is full of people trying to wiggle! Our past sins have been forgiven! We've been washed in the Blood of the Lamb! YES! The idea was that after that we stop sinning and live unto the Lord holy lives! The word says IF we sin and confess and turn from our sin he is faithful to forgive us. NOT When! But "If" .... See the difference?

Do you know what Holy means? Tell me, Pacer.

That's the one that God's gonna get me with, ass-u-me-ing the Torah and/or its spin-offs are indeed The Inspired Word of God.

I sure as death can't say I didn't know.

​

 

[Chuckt]

He started a seminary with Dr. Norman Geisler. Not many people can do that these days.
They're the closest thing to an authority on the Bible.

What is your authority?

I'm a proof kind of a person. So what if he started a seminary...? That's not proof. Next.

The law of evidence says we go by people who have credentials before we go by people like yourself who hasn't stated any credentials.

If you were getting surgery, you want someone who has done a procedure many many times and not someone like yourself who has set themselves up as an authority without any credentials.

Get out your words processors and cut and paste becauset his came from a college class that I'm willing to share. It is the test for evidence and if I want to give a person a hard time because they promote nonsense, I go through the list.

Tests For Evidence
From English 116, Interpersonal Communications
Dr. XXXXXX XXXXXXX
1. Is there enough?
We know very few things with dead certainty.
2. Is it clear?
Do you really understand it? Is it complex? Can you interpret it?
3. Is it consistent with what is already known?
4. Can it be verified?
Have to have better than 2nd or 3rd sources. Not first hand sources?
5. Is the source competent?
A) Is the source credentialed? Does the source have the education or experience?
B) Is the source respected by other experts in the field?
C) Did the source have the opportunity to observe?
D) Was the source physically capable of making the observation?
E) Was the source mentally and emotionally capable of observation?
6. Is the source without bias or without prejudice?
7. Is the source honest?
8. Is the evidence relevant?
9. Is the evidence mathematically and statistically correct?
10. Is the evidence current?

People can tell you what they believe but it is based on nothing.

Logical Fallacies

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc – sequential..before this happens…this caused it. (Cause and Effect) Sequential fallacies presumed to be causually related but doesn’t have to be.

Band Wagon – popular opinion (advertising)

Diverting People from the Point:

Ad hominem – don’t pay attention to the issues. Concentrate on the man.

Ad misericordinim – an appeal to misery.

Ad baculum – Appeal to fear.

Ad bellum – Appeal to War.

Red Herring – get you off of the issues by labeling. Red Herring is from when people salted fish. Packed in Barrels. Used to confuse dog hounds with scent.

Two-valued logic “polarization”

Begging the Question – using part of the problem as proof for itself.

Non Sequitur – Doesn’t follow. Example: She should be a great veterinarian because she loves dogs.

Sweeping Generalization – like the allness

Hasty Generalization – not computing all of the evidence.. leaving something out.

Stereotypes – sometimes correct. Mostly false but not always bad. Include a larger sample.

Strawman – ascribing to someone a position he does not hold in order to embarrass someone. Easy position/argument to knock down.

People love making generalizations with very little evidence.

Para Language – aspects of non-verbal language.

Involves: Facial Expressions and Posture.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today.

Perhaps...



But the Ancient Stories were still authored by hands that were very human.

Having a somewhat documented pedigree of authorship and stewardship doesn't make the stories any easier to believe. Nor does a connected history prove Divine inspiration.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I stand by my comment. There is no one arbitrary interpretation.

Gods Word is interpeted by His Spirit as He is the author and the Revelator of all Scripture. ( another mystery you cannot comprehend without the Spirit of God ) You do not have the Spirit of God indwelling you, Pacer, so that would be your truth ( your comment ) but not mine.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today.

Perhaps...



But the Ancient Stories were still authored by hands that were very human.

Having a somewhat documented pedigree of authorship and stewardship doesn't make the stories any easier to believe. Nor does a connected history prove Divine inspiration.

All Scripture is divinely inspired although it flowed through human vessels, Joe. God desired it to be so and so it was!

 

[The Irish Ram]

It's the Word of God. The bible is quite clear about it. Without holiness no one will see the Lord. It is written.

Whose holiness?

 

[Chuckt]

I stand by my comment. There is no one arbitrary interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Private means:

pertaining to one's self, one's own, belonging to one's self

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 113 AV — his own 48, their own 13, privately 8, apart 7, your own 6, his 5, own 5, not tr 1, misc 20

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[The Irish Ram]

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today.

Perhaps...



But the Ancient Stories were still authored by hands that were very human.

Having a somewhat documented pedigree of authorship and stewardship doesn't make the stories any easier to believe. Nor does a connected history prove Divine inspiration.

What stories about Christ are hard for you to believe Joe?

 

[AVG-JOE]

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today.

Perhaps...



But the Ancient Stories were still authored by hands that were very human.

Having a somewhat documented pedigree of authorship and stewardship doesn't make the stories any easier to believe. Nor does a connected history prove Divine inspiration.

All Scripture is divinely inspired although it flowed through human vessels, Joe. God desired it to be so and so it was!

As long as it works for you, Jeri.

Anchor of Faith​

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

There is no arbitrary interpretation.

Nothing to intrepret, Pacer. It is to be taken as it is written. Literally.

This message was written to the Believers. Not the un-believers.

It is written:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy, without holiness no one will see the Lord. - Hebrews 12: 14

Then it goes on in further explanation to the Believers he is speaking to:

It is written:

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit his blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. - Hebrews 12: 15 - 17

And again it is written:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only the fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy under the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctifies him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people, <-------that is New Testament teaching not Old Testament - Amen?
And the final verse right after that is : It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - That is Hebrews 10: 26 - 31 I just quoted for you guys.

God loves you, Pacer. How much longer must his Spirit strive with you on the matter of your own salvation? Indeed, how much longer must God's Spirit strive even with his own people on the matter of holiness, coming back to him fully, this board is full of people trying to wiggle! Our past sins have been forgiven! We've been washed in the Blood of the Lamb! YES! The idea was that after that we stop sinning and live unto the Lord holy lives! The word says IF we sin and confess and turn from our sin he is faithful to forgive us. NOT When! But "If" .... See the difference?

Do you know what Holy means? Tell me, Pacer.

That's the one that God's gonna get me with, ass-u-me-ing the Torah and/or its spin-offs are indeed The Inspired Word of God.

I sure as death can't say I didn't know.

​

Please do not say that, Joe. I do not believe that about you. Not for a single second. I believe God has his hand on your life and He is in complete control of what is going on inside of you. Let me give you something else to think about. Do you know you cannot even repent without the Holy Ghost? It is true. You can't. He brings conviction upon your heart, you begin to feel that uncomfortable pressure that he is saying alright now.. it is time for you to return to the Lord.. you know it is time now.. and you feel the conviction in your heart.. not condemnation but a conviction and it is the Spirit of God drawing you.. it could be a very slow process and as that drawing is happening the time will come you will say alright, God! I know that this is you! I repent! I see what you are after! And you will pick back up with him where you left off.

Let God be God and He will take control of everything. Also you can't love God without God. That is another one I learned. I couldn't feel Love for God without him giving it to me. So let me free some more of you up on this one..... when I talk about living a life that is pleasing to God, holy unto God, I am not doing it out of a fear of hell but rather out of my love for His Son! I know in a greater measure than I formerly understood - the grief he feels over my sinning - so now I say I won't do it anymore. I won't do it. He means too much to me.

It is my love for him that keeps me out of sin, not my fear of him and also the Holy Spirit warns me ahead of time when something is coming up and I will choose not to even walk out of the house, Joe, rather than to open myself up for something I sense is up ahead. But let me give you this illustration:

Imagine you have a beautiful wife, Joe. ( if you are not married you'll have to imagine it ) she treats you like a king and takes care of your home, your clothing, your meals, she speaks well of you always and is your constant companion and one day she sees you looking at another woman at the grocery store and this deeply grieves her! It is a betrayal in her eyes and you say to yourself I feel awful because my wife is far more beautiful than that strange woman on the frozen food aisle and I had not idea this hurt her so much!

In her eyes I am being unfaithful to her! I will never do that again! I never again want to see the hurt in my wifes eyes like that! I will not return the glances of a strange woman at the cost of my relationship to my own beloved wife.

Imagine a few months later your wife buys you a beautiful gift for your birthday and invites your friends for a celebration and you run to the store to pick up a few items for your upcoming anniversary party and there is the same strange half dressed woman in the aisle.. you are reminded of your wifes feelings about this - that she counts it as a betrayal and so you say to yourself, I won't give anyone the satisfaction of my attention except my beautiful wife! My love is reserved for her! You turn around and walk the other way without so much as a glance! Did you do that out of fear your wife would divorce you if she found out? No! You did it out of love for your wife. Without her even being present. How awesome is that?

This is how I feel about God. My love is reserved for him. I get it that he feels I am personally betraying him when I dare to be tempted into some sin so out of love for him - out of my delight in intimacy I have with him I have decided there isn't anything that is worthy of turning my heart away which would hurt him. I don't want to hurt the Lord.

He has all of my heart, all of my love, my full attention. All the time. Whether he is with me or not - although I must tell you I know he is with me everywhere I go so that is another dimension to my relationship with him. I'm in constant communion with him. There are no breaks where the devil could even get in anymore. He is always on my mind. It is very sweet relationship and I adore him. He knows it too. I long for him as the Shulamite woman longed for her Beloved in Song of Solomon for truly the Beloved in that story is about Jesus Christ! He hides himself and then allows himself to be revealed for a time only to hide himself again.. which only creates a greater longing in her heart for her beloved! At times I think when will he ever show up again? WHEN LORD??! How Long until you come to me? Maybe if I state this publicly he will be forced to come visit me. But there are some things that have not been restored back to me as I had it before and that is what I am longing for now. I believe it is the result of my having gone for a season and although the unity I have with the Lord is very real there is a deeper level to that relationship I am waiting to have again. If you feel the Lord moving upon your heart, Joe, then just yield to him. Then he will come in. Your spirit reminds me of David for some reason. He had a sweet relationship with the Lord too but 15 years of running from Saul was a rough time for him. God understands you better than you understand yourself. He makes all things beautiful in his own time.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The bible is the most intact book of antiquity in existence in the world today.

Perhaps...



But the Ancient Stories were still authored by hands that were very human.

Having a somewhat documented pedigree of authorship and stewardship doesn't make the stories any easier to believe. Nor does a connected history prove Divine inspiration.

All Scripture is divinely inspired although it flowed through human vessels, Joe. God desired it to be so and so it was!

That is right. If it were not so the various different codes throughout the Bible wouldn't work. From numeric codes to imbedded genealogy. For instanceFor every Hebrew letter there is also a number and a symbol. God also uses a variety of numbers for specific events and to describe the order of His Kingdom. 7, 40, 7x7 12 3 all mean something.

The dreaded begots in the Bible make a statement when you put the meaning of the names in place of the names.
Resurrections? I'll put 10 bucks on the 17th day of Nisan.
Feast of the Firstfruits:
Noah's ark rested (after 40 days) and mankind was resurrected following the flood.
Moses lead the people of Israel through the red Sea to resurrect a nation.
Israel crossed the Jordan on the 17th and enjoyed the first fruits of the Promised Land.
Christ rose from the dead and brought the saints with Him as a first fruit offering to His Father on that date.

And then there is the computer code. While some consider it coincidence, the specific information that has been and is being located removes it from that realm.
What strikes me as odd is there are people finding their own genealogy in the Book. It makes me wonder if when you accept Christ and your name is written in the Book of Life if that Book is the Bible that's on our lap.

That book is so well put together, a chance book here and one there could never in a lifetime put all of the levels in perfect harmony. And prophecy is hard to explain away as being a figment of the authors.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I stand by my comment. There is no one arbitrary interpretation.

But when there is a consensuses among those who have spent lifetimes studying the Bible from every angle and arrive at the same conclusion, you can be pretty sure they have uncovered the truth.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

There is no question in my mind that the Bible is Divine and supernatural - even reading it out loud. I did that for a season daily and would read anything out loud into the atmosphere even the begats which as you know is quite an effort! But it didn't matter where I started or ended in reading the word out loud the results were the same and the results are supernatural. I am doing it again ( not yet as I did before ) and also not only reading the Word out loud but typing it out chapter after chapter word after word and find that also has an effect on my spirit. Reading the word, typing the word, speaking the word, singing the word, praying the word, it is all imparts life to the spirit within us. It also imparting life to those around us which is wonderful.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jeri, I wanted to touch base with you on the holiness factor.
For the Jews the Law is the root. For a Christian it is the fruit. We aspire to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant." And it's our reasonable service to live as best we can for Christ's sake.

But if we gauge our own righteousness and obedience as the deciding factor as to our Heaven worthiness, instead of getting there by way of Christ's holiness, righteousness and obedience, what tends to happen is a loss of security and joy.
Self examination of our worthiness manufactures self condemnation and guilt and a sense of failure. You're righteous, then your not, then you are, then your not. I'm an alcoholic, I quit, I started again, I'm useless, I'm an addict, I don't deserve to be saved, I tripped up. I walked away, I did it twice.......
There is no rest, no peace that surpasses understanding.
It is a never ending downward spiral. And the guilt of backsliding or not measuring up is actually a sin conjured by Satan. When we take our eyes off of Christ and start to examine self, Satan will oblige us by reminding us of a humiliating defeat in our quest to be as holy as we can.

And our Loving Father doesn't even hold us accountable for those thoughts. He knows who shoots those arrows into our heads. His solution is to take those thoughts captive, and place them under the obedience of Christ. And then rest because Christ's righteousness never faltered, and was never disobedient.
God will snatch you right out of the jaws of hell for His Son's sake.
So what I would recommend for people who wonder if they are worthy to be called a child of God is to, "Do your best, Give Christ the rest".
Hugs to you.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There is no question in my mind that the Bible is Divine and supernatural - even reading it out loud. I did that for a season daily and would read anything out loud into the atmosphere even the begats which as you know is quite an effort! But it didn't matter where I started or ended in reading the word out loud the results were the same and the results are supernatural. I am doing it again ( not yet as I did before ) and also not only reading the Word out loud but typing it out chapter after chapter word after word and find that also has an effect on my spirit. Reading the word, typing the word, speaking the word, singing the word, praying the word, it is all imparts life to the spirit within us. It also imparting life to those around us which is wonderful.

Amen to that! I think it's why once a scholar starts to study the Bible, they never stop. You can read it so often that you have it committed to memory, but there is always new revelation, new wisdom, new refreshing, new restoration daily when you pick up that book.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jeri, I wanted to touch base with you on the holiness factor.
For the Jews the Law is the root. For a Christian it is the fruit. We aspire to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant." And it's our reasonable service to live as best we can for Christ's sake.

But if we gauge our own righteousness and obedience as the deciding factor as to our Heaven worthiness, instead of getting there by way of Christ's holiness, righteousness and obedience, what tends to happen is a loss of security and joy.
Self examination of our worthiness manufactures self condemnation and guilt and a sense of failure. You're righteous, then your not, then you are, then your not. I'm an alcoholic, I quit, I started again, I'm useless, I'm an addict, I don't deserve to be saved, I tripped up. I walked away, I did it twice.......
There is no rest, no peace that surpasses understanding.
It is a never ending downward spiral. And the guilt of backsliding or not measuring up is actually a sin conjured by Satan. When we take our eyes off of Christ and start to examine self, Satan will oblige us by reminding us of a humiliating defeat in our quest to be as holy as we can.

And our Loving Father doesn't even hold us accountable for those thoughts. He knows who shoots those arrows into our heads. His solution is to take those thoughts captive, and place them under the obedience of Christ. And then rest because Christ's righteousness never faltered, and was never disobedient.
God will snatch you right out of the jaws of hell for His Son's sake.
So what I would recommend for people who wonder if they are worthy to be called a child of God is to, "Do your best, Give Christ the rest".
Hugs to you.

I have heard about the Law and studied the Law as I studied the Old Testament quite in depth yet I am not under the law and do not even believe in tithing as some who profess the Grace message hold fast to ( tithing which is under the Hebrew law ) because it is in their interest - profitable to keep that part of the law going in their churches. Still I am not under the law at all. I am enjoying a relationship with Jesus Christ on His terms. Not my own this time. I'm not striving - I've ceased from striving Irish Ram - I'm free from mans opinions of me but if I feel a conviction in my heart to apologise for something I feel may have offended someone else I can do it without any thought of how I sound or look because truly the opinions of man are a bygone for me now. I think this time God broke me free of it but it was as difficult as a rocket that leaves the earth and has to get out of the gravity zone before it can truly stop spending so much energy.. I think I almost burned myself out on that part of the journey and I feel this is the final stretch of my race and I will finish well by God's grace. Not of my own effort. I'm merely abiding in Him. He does it, it is His life force not mine. The Spirit of God - abiding in the Vine is my source, I have no ability to live the life apart from Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless I will abide by the rules of the race, lest I be disqualified as Paul mentioned once in his writings. ( perhaps more than once but only once I can recall right now )

I do fear for the church which is under a false teaching concerning what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and what Christ did accomplish at the cross for us. I believe much of the church is living way beneath what God has for them and that grieves me but again how much should be said about that I am not sure because all things should be measured by Love and whether it brings forth sweet fruit or something bitter and inedible... that is coming more and more to my attention these days. Also, the tares and the wheat are growing together and we have to be careful not to harm the wheat!

 

[Chuckt]

Jeri, I wanted to touch base with you on the holiness factor.
For the Jews the Law is the root. For a Christian it is the fruit. We aspire to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant." And it's our reasonable service to live as best we can for Christ's sake.

But if we gauge our own righteousness and obedience as the deciding factor as to our Heaven worthiness, instead of getting there by way of Christ's holiness, righteousness and obedience, what tends to happen is a loss of security and joy.
Self examination of our worthiness manufactures self condemnation and guilt and a sense of failure. You're righteous, then your not, then you are, then your not. I'm an alcoholic, I quit, I started again, I'm useless, I'm an addict, I don't deserve to be saved, I tripped up. I walked away, I did it twice.......
There is no rest, no peace that surpasses understanding.
It is a never ending downward spiral. And the guilt of backsliding or not measuring up is actually a sin conjured by Satan. When we take our eyes off of Christ and start to examine self, Satan will oblige us by reminding us of a humiliating defeat in our quest to be as holy as we can.

And our Loving Father doesn't even hold us accountable for those thoughts. He knows who shoots those arrows into our heads. His solution is to take those thoughts captive, and place them under the obedience of Christ. And then rest because Christ's righteousness never faltered, and was never disobedient.
God will snatch you right out of the jaws of hell for His Son's sake.
So what I would recommend for people who wonder if they are worthy to be called a child of God is to, "Do your best, Give Christ the rest".
Hugs to you.

I think we should guage our holiness in comparison to the cross.