If there is a God...

[Montrovant]

You just asked for things people do not believe exist that the feel strongly about. You didn't say those things had to be as important or prevalent as the idea of god.

It goes back to Meriweather's point.

If atheists really believed God didn't exist they wouldn't be arguing like they do about it. It isn't enough for them not to believe in God, they want everyone not to believe in God.

And I disagree completely with that point. If they really believed a god existed, why would they argue one does not? Why would someone not argue about something they do not believe exists? If an adult were to honestly try to claim that Santa Claus exists, I would certainly argue the point. If an adult were to claim that dragons exist, I would argue the point.

Plenty of people have argued that speciation, or macro-evolution, does not exist, to bring up the evolution example. There are long, drawn out arguments about that very subject I've been involved in on this site.

I agree that many atheists probably want everyone to not believe in god. So what? People generally do want others to think the same way they do in an argument.

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

I haven't seen evidence that humanity is "shedding the idea" of a god or gods. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

Man is born with the need to worship something. The only choice they get is in choosing what they will worship.

I suppose that depends on how you are defining worship.

 

[ding]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

 

[Montrovant]

That I have made a rule does not mean that all rules are created by an intelligence. Nor does it mean the use of the word rule must be the same in all contexts.

I think law is the more commonly used word. The physical laws, laws of the universe, etc. Humanity has created many different laws. Does that mean that the laws that govern the universe are the same as the laws created by man? Of course not. Nor do I think that most people, upon hearing the phrase "physical laws of the universe," assume that the use of the term laws implies that those laws must have been created by an intelligence, even if they believe they were created by such an intelligence.

Didn't the laws of nature produce intelligence?

Which laws of nature don't show intelligence behind them?

There may have been an intelligence behind them, but none of them inherently show intelligence.

At its base, your argument boils down to that any sort of order must come from intelligence.

No, my argument is that this specific order has come from intelligence. That the laws of nature are such that beings that know and create (i.e. intelligence) were predestined to exist by very specific laws of nature in a very rich and complex fashion and that signs of intelligence are everywhere given the right conditions and enough time.

Collectively all laws of nature show signs of intelligence. The exact same pattern can be seen at every stage of the evolution of matter from sub atomic particles to beings that know and create. You have to look at it from the creation of space and time until now. You were literally present for the birth of space and time and since that time the matter and energy in your body has merely changed form. The universe literally became aware of itself and you don't believe there is intelligence behind that?

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter, regardless of if or how they are connected. So, no, I was not literally present for the birth of space and time.

"The universe literally became aware of itself"? Just as I was not at the birth of space and time, I am not the universe. At most I am an almost inconceivably small part of the universe. A star is a part of the universe, as well; are you going to claim a star is self-aware? Or put another way, I am self-aware. One of my skin cells is a part of me. Is that skin cell me? Is that skin cell self aware because I am self aware?

Again, the order of the universe may have come from an intelligence. There is no reason I am aware of that it must have, however.

Were the matter and energy that make up who you are today created when space and time were created?

Maybe. I don't claim to know what happened at the beginning of space and time (assuming they have a beginning; assuming that word even applies). Whether they were or not in no way changes that the matter I am made up of is not me when it is not connected in a particular way. I am not simply my individual parts, but the sum of them.

 

[Montrovant]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

I disagree. I would agree that an atheist would not believe I have a spirit or soul, but I do not think an atheist would consider any particle which is part of my body to be me. It would be a small part of me.

Again, a person is made up of the sum of their parts, each individual particle is not that person.

 

[ding]

It goes back to Meriweather's point.

If atheists really believed God didn't exist they wouldn't be arguing like they do about it. It isn't enough for them not to believe in God, they want everyone not to believe in God.

And I disagree completely with that point. If they really believed a god existed, why would they argue one does not? Why would someone not argue about something they do not believe exists? If an adult were to honestly try to claim that Santa Claus exists, I would certainly argue the point. If an adult were to claim that dragons exist, I would argue the point.

Plenty of people have argued that speciation, or macro-evolution, does not exist, to bring up the evolution example. There are long, drawn out arguments about that very subject I've been involved in on this site.

I agree that many atheists probably want everyone to not believe in god. So what? People generally do want others to think the same way they do in an argument.

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

I haven't seen evidence that humanity is "shedding the idea" of a god or gods. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

Man is born with the need to worship something. The only choice they get is in choosing what they will worship.

I suppose that depends on how you are defining worship.

Broadly. The same way that man worships.

Some men worship sex, others worship alcohol, others worship weed, others worship money, others worship power, others worship fame, but most just worship themselves.

 

[Montrovant]

And I disagree completely with that point. If they really believed a god existed, why would they argue one does not? Why would someone not argue about something they do not believe exists? If an adult were to honestly try to claim that Santa Claus exists, I would certainly argue the point. If an adult were to claim that dragons exist, I would argue the point.

Plenty of people have argued that speciation, or macro-evolution, does not exist, to bring up the evolution example. There are long, drawn out arguments about that very subject I've been involved in on this site.

I agree that many atheists probably want everyone to not believe in god. So what? People generally do want others to think the same way they do in an argument.

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

I haven't seen evidence that humanity is "shedding the idea" of a god or gods. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

Man is born with the need to worship something. The only choice they get is in choosing what they will worship.

I suppose that depends on how you are defining worship.

Broadly. The same way that man worships.

Some men worship sex, others worship alcohol, others worship weed, others worship money, others worship power, others worship fame, but most just worship themselves.

I don't know if that is a genetic trait, but fair enough.

 

[ding]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

I disagree. I would agree that an atheist would not believe I have a spirit or soul, but I do not think an atheist would consider any particle which is part of my body to be me. It would be a small part of me.

Again, a person is made up of the sum of their parts, each individual particle is not that person.

You would be wrong. Materialists do not ascribe any higher nature to man. You are nothing more than matter; material. Parts, particles it's all the same. You are just flesh and bones and chemical reactions.

 

[ding]

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

I haven't seen evidence that humanity is "shedding the idea" of a god or gods. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

Man is born with the need to worship something. The only choice they get is in choosing what they will worship.

I suppose that depends on how you are defining worship.

Broadly. The same way that man worships.

Some men worship sex, others worship alcohol, others worship weed, others worship money, others worship power, others worship fame, but most just worship themselves.

I don't know if that is a genetic trait, but fair enough.

I believe compulsion is innate like morality. It's like height. Some are short and some are tall but we all have some level of it. Genetics go to predisposition and flavor. Environment goes to magnitude and severity. IMO.

 

[ding]

Didn't the laws of nature produce intelligence?

Which laws of nature don't show intelligence behind them?

There may have been an intelligence behind them, but none of them inherently show intelligence.

At its base, your argument boils down to that any sort of order must come from intelligence.

No, my argument is that this specific order has come from intelligence. That the laws of nature are such that beings that know and create (i.e. intelligence) were predestined to exist by very specific laws of nature in a very rich and complex fashion and that signs of intelligence are everywhere given the right conditions and enough time.

Collectively all laws of nature show signs of intelligence. The exact same pattern can be seen at every stage of the evolution of matter from sub atomic particles to beings that know and create. You have to look at it from the creation of space and time until now. You were literally present for the birth of space and time and since that time the matter and energy in your body has merely changed form. The universe literally became aware of itself and you don't believe there is intelligence behind that?

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter, regardless of if or how they are connected. So, no, I was not literally present for the birth of space and time.

"The universe literally became aware of itself"? Just as I was not at the birth of space and time, I am not the universe. At most I am an almost inconceivably small part of the universe. A star is a part of the universe, as well; are you going to claim a star is self-aware? Or put another way, I am self-aware. One of my skin cells is a part of me. Is that skin cell me? Is that skin cell self aware because I am self aware?

Again, the order of the universe may have come from an intelligence. There is no reason I am aware of that it must have, however.

Were the matter and energy that make up who you are today created when space and time were created?

Maybe. I don't claim to know what happened at the beginning of space and time (assuming they have a beginning; assuming that word even applies). Whether they were or not in no way changes that the matter I am made up of is not me when it is not connected in a particular way. I am not simply my individual parts, but the sum of them.

There is no maybe about it. It is called the 1st Law of Thermodynamics, the conservation of matter and energy. Since that time matter and energy have merely changed form.

You do understand that you are part of space and time, right?

So with 100% accuracy can you tell me if any part of space and time is conscious and has intelligence? The answer is yes, BTW.

So, I go back to if a universe that was governed by rules created intelligence wouldn't it make sense that intelligence was behind the rules? Especially since rules are a sign of intelligence and it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence?

 

[ding]

Ghosts. A soul. An afterlife. Reincarnation. Intelligent life other than humans. The Holocaust. A better mousetrap.

It seems you have switched from arguing about the concept of something to actually arguing about the something. Does that mean people argue against the existence of God instead of the concept of God?

Let's put that aside though, I have to disagree with you. Ghosts, A soul, An afterlife, Reincarnation, Intelligent life other than humans, The Holocaust or A better mousetrap do not come close to matching the magnitude and degree of opposition that belief in God evokes. It has no contemporary comparison. Just look at the disrespect.

You just asked for things people do not believe exist that the feel strongly about. You didn't say those things had to be as important or prevalent as the idea of god.

It goes back to Meriweather's point.

If atheists really believed God didn't exist they wouldn't be arguing like they do about it. It isn't enough for them not to believe in God, they want everyone not to believe in God.

And I disagree completely with that point. If they really believed a god existed, why would they argue one does not? Why would someone not argue about something they do not believe exists? If an adult were to honestly try to claim that Santa Claus exists, I would certainly argue the point. If an adult were to claim that dragons exist, I would argue the point.

Plenty of people have argued that speciation, or macro-evolution, does not exist, to bring up the evolution example. There are long, drawn out arguments about that very subject I've been involved in on this site.

I agree that many atheists probably want everyone to not believe in god. So what? People generally do want others to think the same way they do in an argument.

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

You guys have a script?

 

[sealybobo]

If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

One thing I can attribute to Him. He hasn't allowed us to all freeze to death.

Yet

 

[ding]

 

[sealybobo]

It seems you have switched from arguing about the concept of something to actually arguing about the something. Does that mean people argue against the existence of God instead of the concept of God?

Let's put that aside though, I have to disagree with you. Ghosts, A soul, An afterlife, Reincarnation, Intelligent life other than humans, The Holocaust or A better mousetrap do not come close to matching the magnitude and degree of opposition that belief in God evokes. It has no contemporary comparison. Just look at the disrespect.

You just asked for things people do not believe exist that the feel strongly about. You didn't say those things had to be as important or prevalent as the idea of god.

It goes back to Meriweather's point.

If atheists really believed God didn't exist they wouldn't be arguing like they do about it. It isn't enough for them not to believe in God, they want everyone not to believe in God.

And I disagree completely with that point. If they really believed a god existed, why would they argue one does not? Why would someone not argue about something they do not believe exists? If an adult were to honestly try to claim that Santa Claus exists, I would certainly argue the point. If an adult were to claim that dragons exist, I would argue the point.

Plenty of people have argued that speciation, or macro-evolution, does not exist, to bring up the evolution example. There are long, drawn out arguments about that very subject I've been involved in on this site.

I agree that many atheists probably want everyone to not believe in god. So what? People generally do want others to think the same way they do in an argument.

He’s trying to flip the script on us. Just the fact humans came up with it and held onto it for so long. If it were a lie wouldn’t we have shed the idea?

Well first of all we are shedding the idea and second, for thousands of years we’ve been forced to believe or keep quiet.

They can’t imagine we truly believe that the world would be better off without religions. They get a lot of joy from it so they can’t see it any other way

I haven't seen evidence that humanity is "shedding the idea" of a god or gods. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

More than ever and once the floodgates open and people stop brainwashing their kids....

Are you kidding me churches are closing or combining because they don’t have the members like they use to.

In 100 years 50% will be agnostic atheists. It would be more if Islam didn’t have such a strangle hold on their people. When people are truly free a lot will choose atheism

 

[ding]

 

[sealybobo]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

What’s a bug? Is a bug simply the particles which make up matter? You’re no different than the bug. Just smarter

 

[ding]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

What’s a bug? Is a bug simply the particles which make up matter? You’re no different than the bug. Just smarter

The bug was present for the creation of space and time too. Just as every bug that ever existed or will exist. Mind blowing.

 

[MaryL]

I just read an article from NASA which is partially the inspiration behind this topic:
WMAP- Fate of the Universe
It would seem to suggest that given enough time, all life in the known universe will most likely essentially “freeze” to death.
Now as a preface to this topic I suppose I should set some “assumptions” that I’m making. Let’s say that billions or more years ago, some supremely powerful conscious being created all the particles that exist along with all the rules that govern them; and that being is God.

Given all the messed up stuff that can happen to people, and has happened to people throughout history, and that existence will probably fade into frozen nothingness eventually; I’m having a hard time believing that “God” actually “cares” about us that much. Now I know that most people are good, but I think that’s mostly because it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be “good”. I think I have an innate empathy and conscientiousness for others because that is a trait that fosters cooperation; and human cooperation is a competitive advantage. Simply survival of the fittest.

So I guess I’m going to pose this question to you all: If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

The third law of thermodynamics which I barley understand

I just read an article from NASA which is partially the inspiration behind this topic:
WMAP- Fate of the Universe
It would seem to suggest that given enough time, all life in the known universe will most likely essentially “freeze” to death.
Now as a preface to this topic I suppose I should set some “assumptions” that I’m making. Let’s say that billions or more years ago, some supremely powerful conscious being created all the particles that exist along with all the rules that govern them; and that being is God.

Given all the messed up stuff that can happen to people, and has happened to people throughout history, and that existence will probably fade into frozen nothingness eventually; I’m having a hard time believing that “God” actually “cares” about us that much. Now I know that most people are good, but I think that’s mostly because it’s evolutionarily advantageous to be “good”. I think I have an innate empathy and conscientiousness for others because that is a trait that fosters cooperation; and human cooperation is a competitive advantage. Simply survival of the fittest.

So I guess I’m going to pose this question to you all: If there is a God (as outlined above) is there any evidence it really cares about you or my well being at a personal level?

Well, given the alternatives, what do we need god for, then?

 

[sealybobo]

A bug was lucky enough to be born just like we were. Did god make the bug? Does god care what the bug does? Does god have a heaven for this bug?

How arrogant theists are. You just happen to be the smartest thing on one Little Rock in the universe. Seems impressive to us humans but they either don’t understand how small we are or how much life is out there.

So is the smartest animal on every other planet going to heaven too? Is that how it works? One creature per planet gets a soul?

 

[sealybobo]

*I* am not simply the particles which make up my matter

That would not be the materialist's view (aka atheist view). Their view is that you are simply the particles which make up your matter.

What’s a bug? Is a bug simply the particles which make up matter? You’re no different than the bug. Just smarter

The bug was present for the creation of space and time too. Just as every bug that ever existed or will exist. Mind blowing.

Some part of the bug.

 

[ding]

A bug was lucky enough to be born just like we were. Did god make the bug? Does god care what the bug does? Does god have a heaven for this bug?

How arrogant theists are. You just happen to be the smartest thing on one Little Rock in the universe. Seems impressive to us humans but they either don’t understand how small we are or how much life is out there.

So is the smartest animal on every other planet going to heaven too? Is that how it works? One creature per planet gets a soul?

Bro, I am the one arguing for something greater than man. Are you sure you are not the one being arrogant?