If you need religion to be good

[Foxfyre]

Good and Evil are subjective, obviously.
​

Are they? Or are they sometimes just poorly understood or recognized?

 

[koshergrl]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

I tend not to think in good/evil terms. I don't believe good and evil even exist for starters. Rather actions and consequences do. Using my 3 times weekly baking giveaway as an example, I know giving free cookies and cupcakes to people is good because they always smile and say lots of nice things to me when I do. That informs me it's "good" because it makes me feel in such a way that I like the feeling and not dislike it as with say a toothache. (rubs jaw)

What is the average age of the recipients?

 

[Derideo_Te]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

 

[Darkwind]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

You're not human, you are a primate.

History shows us that before the advent of deities, (either in multiple form or singular) humans were so amoral as to be evil. The killing of one another was given no more thought than the killing of a spider. Even after the advent of some religion, mankind was cruel to the point it almost defied description. Whole families and ethnicities were enslaved and/or butchered with no more conscious than simple cattle.

A belief that mankind was good and moral before the coming of the major religions is deliberately blind to the history and truth of our existence.

It is possible that as a species and with the advancements we have made, that if we did not have the moral boundaries taught us by millennia of religion, we'd have reduced ourselves back into the prairies and we'd just be another group of hunter/gatherers.

In essence, without God, we are just another tribe of primates, with all the moral code that they carry with them.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

I tend not to think in good/evil terms. I don't believe good and evil even exist for starters. Rather actions and consequences do. Using my 3 times weekly baking giveaway as an example, I know giving free cookies and cupcakes to people is good because they always smile and say lots of nice things to me when I do. That informs me it's "good" because it makes me feel in such a way that I like the feeling and not dislike it as with say a toothache. (rubs jaw)

I can appreciate that even though I teach that not everything that feels good and/or is satisfying is in fact good. To tempt the brittle diabetic with those cookies might feel good and he indeed may smile and say nice things to you, but it may in fact be a very bad thing to do. To offer a cigarette to somebody might be a very bad thing to do, most especially if they are in the worst withdrawal cravings of quitting and at their weakest to resist the temptation.

But my argument is nitpicking what I think your intent was. And yes, in most cases it is pleasant, satisfying, and feels good to be generous, unselfish, accommodating, etc. and enjoy the positive response from others when you do.

But why? What makes it pleasant? Satisfying? Feel good? There are cultures that would not see it in the same way. There are the bah humbug Scrooges in the world who do not share your experience. So where does what you see as 'good' come from?

Comes most directly I'd say from my Mom. She raised me with a secular understanding of what was good or not. Religion never came up. And oddly enough, Oprah's influence is in there as well. Some quote from her about giving is better than getting to which I worked it through in my head agreeing.

As I tell people here re cookies and cupcakes, 'If I eat one I'll feel good having ate it. But if I give it away, I get pleasure having given it away, and then the recipiant gets pleasure eating it. I"m putting twice the joy into the world giving than I'd get eating it myself.' Twice the pleasure is objectively 'gooder.'

 

[Derideo_Te]

Fear based religion is a contradiction. They preach about the "love of God" while threatening "eternal damnation" if you don't comply. That is a form of cognitive dissonance. Rational people understand that doing what is right is good and doing what is wrong will have very real consequences in this life. There is no need for any religious threat to make them into "good" people.

But again the question I posed to the OP. How do you know what is good?

Trust me, he doesn't. This particular poster believes pornography is good.

So meh.

You really are a hoot, KG!

 

[koshergrl]

Also, cupcakes are a great tool for building trust. I used to know a guy who would give out popsicles. All the kids loved him. Then I went and talked to him, and he inexplicably stopped.

 

[Darkwind]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

It all depends on whether you are speaking of a religion that teaches salvation or reward via good works, or a pure Christian faith that teaches a salvation by the grace of God's love for a people none of whom are good enough to merit heaven by our own works. On the other hand, those assured of eternal life by the grace of God will usually do their best to do good and live righteously because of their love of a God of grace and gratitude for that grace.

But how does a Humanist as you describe yourself know what being good is?

You know something's good if you'd enjoy another person doing it to you, for you, etc. ...Well, assuming you're mentally normal and not a masochist or something.

Yes, when that Pharaohs enjoyed the slaves building their temples to their immortality, they must have said to themselves, "This must be good, for I enjoyed them making it for me!"

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I've often explained things as being good if you'd do them out in the open without thought of others seeing you. As with private messages, if you'll only say it in private, I don't wanna read it.

Again--and I'm partly playing devil's advocate here for the purpose of an interesting discussion --you think if a person's actions are not concealed, then they are good? Does that hold true for pot parties or drinking parties where people openly use or drink to excess? Does that hold true for the guy who goes to the casino to gamble away the kids' milk money? Does that hold true for the guy who speeds through the school zone?

I am more persuaded that a measure of person's character is how they treat others when they think nobody will know it is them, or how people behave in general when nobody is looking and not so much what they do in public.

But where do you think our sense of right and wrong, virtue and evil, good and bad comes from? What tells us this is good and that is bad? Derideo_te says use the Golden Rule as a guideline. That is all well and good unless we do for others what we want but is bad for us.

I tend not to think in good/evil terms. I don't believe good and evil even exist for starters. Rather actions and consequences do. Using my 3 times weekly baking giveaway as an example, I know giving free cookies and cupcakes to people is good because they always smile and say lots of nice things to me when I do. That informs me it's "good" because it makes me feel in such a way that I like the feeling and not dislike it as with say a toothache. (rubs jaw)

What is the average age of the recipients?

Dunno how old the adults are. Spread's about 11-80. For the youngest kids I give it to their parents. Not the kids. Started off being for me, my Mom, brother, and his wife. But I always had extra so started giving them to the maintenance people. Then the ladies upstairs in the rental office, then neighbors walking by, then the kids. Prolly about a dozen kids and sveral dozen adults on my 'get' list now after a year of doing it. Had to add a second cookie day on Saturday since even double batches weren't getting em to everybody.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Also, cupcakes are a great tool for building trust. I used to know a guy who would give out popsicles. All the kids loved him. Then I went and talked to him, and he inexplicably stopped.

Only one parent denied her kids getting anything. They explained she said "I might put something in them." I replied, "Waht? Like peanuts? I don't like peanuts in stuff." Took me a moment to understand. Spoke with her eventually explaining I'm from a cop family so I understood her intent and didn't take it personally. Letting them accept from me as she's inclined to do sets a dangerous precedent. If I'm ok, what about the next guy?

 

[saveliberty]

No one is "good" all the time. What percentage is acceptable? 51%?

 

[September]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern "Neopagans" have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions... such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

 

[Derideo_Te]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

 

[Foxfyre]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

You may wish to believe that, and it is your right to do so, but just because two or more people, groups, or cultures develop similar beliefs or customs does not automatically extrapolate into one receiving or inheriting it from another. If you want to go with that argument, since the seeds of the Golden Rule are found in Leviticus dating about the 15th Century B.C., maybe the Pagans got it from the ancient Hebrews? But that is irrelevant to the topic so can we pull the train back on track here?

What is your definition of goodness? Where does it come from? And should one expect a reward for being good? If not, why not?

 

[Foxfyre]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

It all depends on whether you are speaking of a religion that teaches salvation or reward via good works, or a pure Christian faith that teaches a salvation by the grace of God's love for a people none of whom are good enough to merit heaven by our own works. On the other hand, those assured of eternal life by the grace of God will usually do their best to do good and live righteously because of their love of a God of grace and gratitude for that grace.

But how does a Humanist as you describe yourself know what being good is?

You know something's good if you'd enjoy another person doing it to you, for you, etc. ...Well, assuming you're mentally normal and not a masochist or something.

Yes, when that Pharaohs enjoyed the slaves building their temples to their immortality, they must have said to themselves, "This must be good, for I enjoyed them making it for me!"

Yes many a child has cheated on a test and felt really good and not the least bit guilty when he/she received an "A". I have often exceeded the speed limit when in a hurry to get where I was going and have felt great (and not at all guilty) when I saw the cop and he didn't come after me. The thief can be exuberant and thrilled when he successfully scores a great heist, doesn't get caught, and profits greatly--for him it is good. How many of us have felt great when we got the job we were applying for and felt little or no remorse for those who were disappointed that they didn't get it? The insider trader who gets away with it no doubt feels wonderful when he profits greatly--he know it is illegal but he honestly believes he didn't hurt anybody.

I think there must be a greater standard for 'goodness' than simply personal satisfaction.

 

[September]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

 

[saveliberty]

Let's see, when I came to USMB I was good. More posters agreed with me than disagreed. Then more liberals showed up and I came bad. My behavior is the same.

 

[pbel]

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

Obviously your opinions are from a deviant point of view of Satanic Worship. Really, how can you add to the conversation about God, humanity or what is good from that deviant point of view?

 

[saveliberty]

The humanists seem to have a need to be recognized as good and to reach that level of goodness based on their own or a smaller group of folks defining that. This goodness must provide them some type of reward in this life. A love based on self.

 

[September]

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

Obviously your opinions are from a deviant point of view of Satanic Worship. Really, how can you add to the conversation about God, humanity or what is good from that deviant point of view?

You keep using that word "deviant"... when spiritually, sexually, romantically, "morally", artistically... tis only a compliment...

And I love discussing God, the Devil, demons, angels, gods and goddesses, morality, religion, spirituality...

These things are so fascinating! So magickal and mysterious! So... epic.

All religions, whether Right hand path or Left hand path, or somewhere in between or outside of them... have their strengths and power.

All religions interest me. All religions fascinate me.

All religions are there for me to explore and absorb their power to grow stronger from.

​