If you need religion to be good

[Derideo_Te]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

You may wish to believe that, and it is your right to do so, but just because two or more people, groups, or cultures develop similar beliefs or customs does not automatically extrapolate into one receiving or inheriting it from another. If you want to go with that argument, since the seeds of the Golden Rule are found in Leviticus dating about the 15th Century B.C., maybe the Pagans got it from the ancient Hebrews? But that is irrelevant to the topic so can we pull the train back on track here?

What is your definition of goodness? Where does it come from? And should one expect a reward for being good? If not, why not?

As I stated earlier the GR is the basis for being good in my opinion. The origins of the GR exist in survival in my opinion. We depended upon each other for our existence when we descended from the trees. No single one of us could see in all directions at once but if we saw imminent danger to one of our own tribe we uttered a warning to save themselves knowing that they would do the same for us.

As far as the religious myth of an afterlife reward goes that is just a superstition to control others to abide by the dogma. The concept of putting others before oneself, being willing to sacrifice oneself for the good of the rest does not happen because one expects a reward. It is just another survival instinct in my opinion. Sacrifice yourself so that the rest may get away to safety is common enough in the animal kingdom. I suspect that mankind has exploited this trait in order to conduct war. So there is no reward for being selfless and there should never be one because selfishness is not "good".

 

[Derideo_Te]

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

 

[September]

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar, yet more extreme, Left Hand Path religions... many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

 

[Derideo_Te]

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

 

[Foxfyre]

-Thelema
-Countless forms of Paganism
***-All Left Hand Path religions

Just to name a few.

The world is a big place and holds many religions... too many to count and too many to learn. Many of them do not care for this "golden rule".

​

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism predates Christianity and is at least as old as the oldest of the Jewish manuscripts. It was not pagan worship of any deity but a concept similar to Buddhism actually in that proponents recognized themselves as gods or gods in the making. Life itself was holy and one's own experience is the only truth. It was a total rejection of theistic religions and a belief that human are simply one more animal in a complex biological world. Those who practiced or practice it as a religion generally embrace what Christians would call the seven deadly sins--life is to be enjoyed in the fullest and there is no depravity or sinful nature but simply one's ability to do what is pleasurable and satisfying.

Which is one more perspective on trying to find a definition of 'good'.

 

[emilynghiem]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

Hi Delta4Embassy
Are you okay with the notion of using religions as cultural languages for laws and practices?
Do you look down on people's traditional faith practices as "unhinged"
for example:
1. * do you insult the Buddhist family who takes a day to pray on the anniversary of the passing of elders?
Note: this coincides with the Christian teaching of honoring one's mother and father that one's days may be long
and healthy
And if you look at Asian families, there is a LOT to be said of strong spiritual connections
between generations that keep families strong to live long healthy lives.
Even people will tell me and my mother and sisters we look 10-20 years younger than we are.

So if this coincides with natural laws about health and longevity
are you going to insult it just because it is tied to religion?

2. For Christian healing prayer that has healed and saved people from
* cancer, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis
* schizophrenia, multiple personalities, demonic voices, depression and suicide
* sexual abuse or addiction, drug abuse or addiction
etc.
are you going to look down on this practice, also found to be Consistent with natural healing science and medicine,
and say it is "unhinged" because it is taught in religion?

3. if people are helped to forgive so they can heal and correct
problems, like the young man Dan Leach whose pastor counseled
him to come clean with God and tell the truth that he murdered his girlfriend.

Is that evil or unhinged to use spiritual and religious support
to encourage a man to work with authorities and admit to murder
because he wanted his conscience to be clear with God after
watching Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson and realizing he couldn't keep hiding his crime?

Is it more unhinged to hide and deny in guilt?
or HEALTHIER to come out and forgive and live with the truth?
which is healthier mentally -- to forgive or to deny and hide in fear and blame and shame

Studies on forgiveness will show that it impacts health of mind and body.
How is this "unhinged" to teach forgiveness as restoring one's health?

Can you explain why this is bad if it is taught in religion?
Thanks!

I don't think this needs to be taken into the Bullring,
as I find you faster and more honest than to justify things that are contrary.

But if you really believe the purpose of religion is to
create some crutch because people are inferior in some way,
I will take you up on that and defend the point that
the universal laws that religions seek to teach
are consistent with natural laws of healing and harmony
and are better for people's health not worse.

anything that is harmful, fraudulent, false, wrongful or abusive
is NOT the universal laws, teachings, meaning or purpose behind that religion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism predates Christianity and is at least as old as the oldest of the Jewish manuscripts. It was not pagan worship of any deity but a concept similar to Buddhism actually in that proponents recognized themselves as gods or gods in the making. Life itself was holy and one's own experience is the only truth. It was a total rejection of theistic religions and a belief that human are simply one more animal in a complex biological world. Those who practiced or practice it as a religion generally embrace what Christians would call the seven deadly sins--life is to be enjoyed in the fullest and there is no depravity or sinful nature but simply one's ability to do what is pleasurable and satisfying.

Which is one more perspective on trying to find a definition of 'good'.

We agree, satanism is just the opposite of whatever religions claim is "good" and yes, even ancient religions would be railing against this bogeyman in order to convert followers to their cause. Satanism didn't have to actually exist in order to be considered the opposite of "good". Religions require that there be "evil" in order for them to claim to be "good" and to offer "salvation" from "evil".

 

[September]

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Just because you do not like a religion, or are ignorant of it, does not prevent it from existing as an established religion.

You said that it is a fact that the Golden Rule is in every religion.

It is not.

You cannot presume to know every religion that ever existed, or even every religion that exists today. Nobody can.

But you can understand that you were wrong and clearly ignorant of the Left Hand Path, which long predates any modern incarnation of Satanism.

But it's all good. You learned something new. So chill out.

You were wrong. So what?

You have obviously benefitted from this discussion. You are now less ignorant of the matter, and may now go forth smarter than you were when we began conversing.

​

 

[turzovka]

If you need religion to be good, a promised paradisical afterlife, threat of hell if you're naughty, you're already evil and screwed.

Humanists like myself know being good IS good. But we don't behave good and proper because we think we'll be rewarded after we die. We know we'll be rewarded while we're still alive. Good begets good, evil begets evil. If you're only good because you think you'll be rewarded, you're a horrible example of your faith. Would you be good without the concept of heaven or threat of hell? Are you that mentally unhinged?

To answer your last question: Yes, I am that "mentally unhinged," with respect to your way of thinking.

One your many issues is that you cannot see God or have the rationality to come to that obvious conclusion. Because if you were "gifted" enough to understand hyper-complex and orderly life could never assemble itself on its own by mindless molecules crashing against each other, then you have the beginnings of knowing there must be a supernatural being or power that is guiding our lives here on earth.

Secondly, for you to then say "I don't care" and you will do as you please is a grave act of pride or rebellion. Maybe it is simply because you would rather do as you please than do as God communicates to us. But instead you have decided God has no right to tell you anything so onto your search to deny his existence.

You see, it is not merely a matter of believers being in search of eternal life, it is a matter of humility, gratitude and obedience. We are not that stupid to ignore our Lord or his promises.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Just because you do not like a religion, or are ignorant of it, does not prevent it from existing as an established religion.

You said that it is a fact that the Golden Rule is in every religion.

It is not.

You cannot presume to know every religion that ever existed, or even every religion that exists today. Nobody can.

But you can understand that you were wrong and clearly ignorant of the Left Hand Path, which long predates any modern incarnation of Satanism.

But it's all good. You learned something new. So chill out.

You were wrong. So what?

You have obviously benefitted from this discussion. You are now less ignorant of something, and may now go forth smarter than you were when we began conversing.

​

What did you learn from this discussion? What are you less ignorant about now? Where were you "wrong"?

 

[Foxfyre]

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism predates Christianity and is at least as old as the oldest of the Jewish manuscripts. It was not pagan worship of any deity but a concept similar to Buddhism actually in that proponents recognized themselves as gods or gods in the making. Life itself was holy and one's own experience is the only truth. It was a total rejection of theistic religions and a belief that human are simply one more animal in a complex biological world. Those who practiced or practice it as a religion generally embrace what Christians would call the seven deadly sins--life is to be enjoyed in the fullest and there is no depravity or sinful nature but simply one's ability to do what is pleasurable and satisfying.

Which is one more perspective on trying to find a definition of 'good'.

We agree, satanism is just the opposite of whatever religions claim is "good" and yes, even ancient religions would be railing against this bogeyman in order to convert followers to their cause. Satanism didn't have to actually exist in order to be considered the opposite of "good". Religions require that there be "evil" in order for them to claim to be "good" and to offer "salvation" from "evil".

But then again Satanism is its own religion whether recognized as such or not. And for those who embrace it, they believe they are the ones who are embracing 'good'. All religions do not teach any form of salvation, nor do all religions require that there be 'evil' or even acknowledge its existence. The definition of Satanism that I provided did not infer or imply that it was the opposite of 'good' or is considered as such. It was presented as one group of peoples concept or perception of what 'good' is.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You made the outrageous claim that it is a fact that the Golden rule is in every religion.

It may be in many of them, but it is definitely not in all of them.
​

In which case prove me wrong by citing the religions in which the golden rule does not exist.

Even if there is a religion that doesn't practice the 'golden rule,' your premise is still correct: religion has no 'monopoly' on virtue and morality.

Indeed, millions of Americans free from faith go about their daily lives just as virtuous and moral as any theist.

 

[emilynghiem]

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Hi Derideo Te:
I would say the Golden Rule is a natural law.
That what comes around goes around, so naturally we learn to treat others with equal respect we want as well.

Where Satanism has a form of the Golden rule within its teachings:
"you are not to delude oneself"

This is like in Hamlet: "Be true to oneself, then it must follow like the night the day,
one cannot then be false to any man."

One place where I would warn we NEED to teach the Golden rule
1. Currently in our Constitutional laws, the 14th Amendment CLAIMS protection of the laws
for all persons from discrimination (by creed, etc.)

2. but in practice, we do not practice this.

* People hold govt or other parties to respect THEIR religious freedom and even sue to defend it.
But hold NO obligation to defend the same for the other party.

Our courts and legislatures actually REWARD onesided bullying behavior
(which I find unconstitutional by my standard of equal First and Fourteenth Amendment rights.)

* People will hold Government to follow the Bill of Rights,
but not practice this ourselves, and not hold Corporations to follow these laws which run amok until sued to stop!

For example, RE: "due process and right to defense"
online, people will habitually accuse and assume FIRST each other is wrong or guilty of being a [fill in the blank]
and then follow up with defensive arguments AFTER to try to prove or disprove their assumption after it is already made.
Sometimes they even block that process of defense, because they want to keep the implication justified.

So this is the opposite of due process,
where people WANT to be given the benefit of the doubt before being proven wrong, guilty etc.

online others are are guilty or wrong until proven otherwise
while each person assumes they are right until proven wrong

If this is the Golden Rule, it is more like "bully others back as they bully you."

3. What can be pointed out in Christianity
is that you treat others BETTER than they treat you so you
break the cycle of karmic retribution with kindness.

In addition to "loving your neighbors as yourself"
Jesus Christ represented a New Commandment
to love one another as Jesus/God loves us which means "unconditional love"

So this aligns with what you said about not doing things for reward which would be for selfish material conditions,
but kindness love and charity being the natural default state of peace and harmony and its own reward.

 

[September]

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Just because you do not like a religion, or are ignorant of it, does not prevent it from existing as an established religion.

You said that it is a fact that the Golden Rule is in every religion.

It is not.

You cannot presume to know every religion that ever existed, or even every religion that exists today. Nobody can.

But you can understand that you were wrong and clearly ignorant of the Left Hand Path, which long predates any modern incarnation of Satanism.

But it's all good. You learned something new. So chill out.

You were wrong. So what?

You have obviously benefitted from this discussion. You are now less ignorant of something, and may now go forth smarter than you were when we began conversing.

​

What did you learn from this discussion? What are you less ignorant about now? Where were you "wrong"?

I wasn't wrong about anything in this topic, that I know of. You are welcome to point out something I said if you believe I was.

What did I learn? I learned that despite all that was said I have still yet to really address the original post in the topic.

Is religion needed to be "good"?

Well...

Instead of using the term "good", I will say this.

Religion is not needed to be respectful or just, or kind, or peaceful, or merciful, or humble, or honorable, or compassionate, or unconditionally loving- traits normally subjectively considered to be "good".

This Golden rule you brought up... religion is not needed to embrace that.

Religion is not needed to walk a "Right Hand Path"

Just as religion is not needed to walk a "Left Hand Path"

But

Religion can certainly make it a Hell of a lot more interesting.

​

 

[emilynghiem]

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Just because you do not like a religion, or are ignorant of it, does not prevent it from existing as an established religion.

You said that it is a fact that the Golden Rule is in every religion.

It is not.

You cannot presume to know every religion that ever existed, or even every religion that exists today. Nobody can.

But you can understand that you were wrong and clearly ignorant of the Left Hand Path, which long predates any modern incarnation of Satanism.

But it's all good. You learned something new. So chill out.

You were wrong. So what?

You have obviously benefitted from this discussion. You are now less ignorant of the matter, and may now go forth smarter than you were when we began conversing.

​

Dear Goddess_Ashtara:
Would you agree that the Golden Rule is "inherent in natural laws" and
all human nature is subject to this.

So whether we teach it or not, whether it is conscious or not, whether it is or is not specifically stated
in system of laws or religion,
as long as PEOPLE are involved in that religion,
then PEOPLE by conscience carry this law in our nature.

It may well BE true, that you are right and DT is wrong that this GR is not directly expressed in every religion, we cannot know that.

Are you okay with the idea that since it is inherently a natural law embodied in the conscience
of all people, we are under it anyway?

 

[pbel]

Is 8220 Do What Thou Wilt 8221 a moral code

Golden rule Do unto others according to the 8220 pagans 8221 Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean

Seek and ye shall find!

FYI Christianity inherited the golden rule from pagan religions.

Paganism is not one religion.

It is many religions that share certain things in common that unifies them, and the Golden Rule is not one of those things.

But I said "countless Pagan religions", not "All pagan religions". Some Pagan religions may embrace a Golden Rule if they so choose. Modern Pagans have the freedom to create our own Pagan religious views and embrace whatever codes we Will. Paganism is badass like that.

Thelema'a saying of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under Will"

DOES NOT equate to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is open to interpretation, and by no means does it have to restrict our behavior or force us to embrace some "moral" code. Most of us view it as more of a reminder that our Destiny and True Will are in our own hands, that we may Forge our own path and follow our heart as we Will.

As for Left Hand Path religions, such groups tend to completely reject the "Golden Rule".


​

Please provide examples of "Left Hand Path religions" that "completely reject the 'Golden Rule'".

Here are a few examples:

***Every single nexion within the
Order of Nine Angles
aka
O9A

*The Temple of the Black Light aka Misanthropic Luciferian Order

*Luciferianism

Laveyan Satanism (lol)

***All forms of Spiritual/ Theistic Satanism
​

Obviously your opinions are from a deviant point of view of Satanic Worship. Really, how can you add to the conversation about God, humanity or what is good from that deviant point of view?

You keep using that word "deviant"... when spiritually, sexually, romantically, "morally", artistically... tis only a compliment...

And I love discussing God, the Devil, demons, angels, gods and goddesses, morality, religion, spirituality...

These things are so fascinating! So magickal and mysterious! So... epic.

All religions, whether Right hand path or Left hand path, or somewhere in between or outside of them... have their strengths and power.

All religions interest me. All religions fascinate me.

All religions are there for me to explore and absorb their power to grow stronger from.

​

There is absolutely nothing about morals or spirituality when deviant sickos like you express their satanic thoughts about humanity...You have nothing on Charles Manson...

 

[emilynghiem]

As I expected you had to resort to the pretensions of "Satanism". Too bad that it isn't actually an ancient religion at all but merely the term that the Jews used to describe pagans. There are no actual ancient texts of satanism as there are for other religions. The modern form of satanism is merely the inverse of Christianity hence there would not be any GR.

Satanism, Luciferianism, and all other Left Hand Path religions are still religions, and thus, you were wrong, and not every religion embraces the Golden Rule.

You even ignore the countless Pagan religions that did not and do not embrace the Golden Rule.

As for "Satanism"...

There is this saying.... the "Essence" is not the "Outer Form".

The various incarnations of Satanism are merely outer forms harnessing an ancient Essence that existed long before Satanism but was expressed in similar Left Hand Path religions, many of which were indeed Pagan in Nature.

The Golden Rule is not embraced by every religion.

​

Your were asked to provide examples of religions that did not embrace the GR and you flunked out with satanism which is little more than an offshoot of the Victorian era obsession with the occult.

The concept of the GR underlies all religions because they essentially have to rely upon some form of "goodness" in order to appear credible. The notable exception being satanism which is the "Goth" of religions.

Just because you do not like a religion, or are ignorant of it, does not prevent it from existing as an established religion.

You said that it is a fact that the Golden Rule is in every religion.

It is not.

You cannot presume to know every religion that ever existed, or even every religion that exists today. Nobody can.

But you can understand that you were wrong and clearly ignorant of the Left Hand Path, which long predates any modern incarnation of Satanism.

But it's all good. You learned something new. So chill out.

You were wrong. So what?

You have obviously benefitted from this discussion. You are now less ignorant of something, and may now go forth smarter than you were when we began conversing.

​

What did you learn from this discussion? What are you less ignorant about now? Where were you "wrong"?

I wasn't wrong about anything in this topic, that I know of. You are welcome to point out something I said if you believe I was.

What did I learn? I learned that despite all that was said I have still yet to really address the original post in the topic.

Is religion needed to be "good"?

Well...

Instead of using the term "good", I will say this.

Religion is not needed to be respectful or just, or kind, or peaceful, or merciful, or humble, or honorable, or compassionate, or unconditionally loving- traits normally subjectively considered to be "good".

This Golden rule you brought up... religion is not needed to embrace that.

Religion is not needed to walk a "Right Hand Path"

Just as religion is not needed to walk a "Left Hand Path"

But

Religion can certainly make it a Hell of a lot more interesting.

​

Dear Goddess_Ashtara
where I would disagree with you is that
in cases where people have picked up addictive or oppressive influences from exposure to occult or dark energies,
it is absolutely essential to seek the help of practitioners such as
those in Christian healing, breaking generational curses, deliverance or exorcism.

I have not heard of any more reliable and permanent cure than the Christian approach,
as the worst demonic influences and entities will obey the authority invoked through Christian deliverance prayer
but will continue to linger on if anything less is used.

That is one area where I will absolutely attest that Christianity
offers relief and healing where others may fail.

Also this positive energy in Christianity healing prayer
clashes so dangerously and unpredictably with dark energy,
that the effective and authentic healers and teachers I know
will absolute explain and warn NOT TO MIX these.

The dark/negative forces must be removed first
or it clashes and disrupts the positive prayers and energy
and endangers the people with disruptive attacks, dangers even death from the clash of energy.

I believe this should be proven by science
so that people can be warned and informed in advance
BEFORE playing with any dark forces; just like warning
people about microwaves, xrays and radioactive exposure.
That is cancer causing.

And I have heard of exorcists getting attacked or dying
of cancer and other extreme conditions from exposure to these dangerous forces.

The safest methods of deliverance/exorcism do not involve the
person stepping in as the authority like the Catholic priests practice.

The safe natural way is for the team to intercedes and invoke the
authority of Christ to cast out the demons and make peace with them
but not to try to dictate, issue judgment or send these demons anywhere,
just send to them to Christ and let his authority have dominion over them.

That is the difference
and it should be studied and proven
so people can be warned why these forces aer so dangerous.

 

[September]

​

Dear Goddess_Ashtara:
Would you agree that the Golden Rule is "inherent in natural laws" and
all human nature is subject to this.

So whether we teach it or not, whether it is conscious or not, whether it is or is not specifically stated
in system of laws or religion,
as long as PEOPLE are involved in that religion,
then PEOPLE by conscience carry this law in our nature.

It may well BE true, that you are right and DT is wrong that this GR is not directly expressed in every religion, we cannot know that.

I do not believe that "the Golden Rule is "inherent in natural laws" and
all human nature is subject to this"...

But

If that is what you believe, than I would encourage you to continue believing as you do.

I have read your posts before, and noticed that you seem to have this aura about you that reflects positivity, "Light", and "goodness". At least, you seem to possess traits that other humans subjectively consider to be "good", and, I like that about you... even if my Nature is radically different than yours.

I like that you appear to truly believe the things you say, and I like that you do not seem to be the least bit hypocritical in them.


​

Are you okay with the idea that since it is inherently a natural law embodied in the conscience
of all people, we are under it anyway?

I am okay with others embracing that idea, even if I do not embrace it myself.





​

 

[pbel]

​

Dear Goddess_Ashtara:
Would you agree that the Golden Rule is "inherent in natural laws" and
all human nature is subject to this.

So whether we teach it or not, whether it is conscious or not, whether it is or is not specifically stated
in system of laws or religion,
as long as PEOPLE are involved in that religion,
then PEOPLE by conscience carry this law in our nature.

It may well BE true, that you are right and DT is wrong that this GR is not directly expressed in every religion, we cannot know that.

I do not believe that "the Golden Rule is "inherent in natural laws" and
all human nature is subject to this"...

But

If that is what you believe, than I would encourage you to continue believing as you do.

I have read your posts before, and noticed that you seem to have this aura about you that reflects positivity, "Light", and "goodness". At least, you seem to possess traits that other humans subjectively consider to be "good", and, I like that about you... even if my Nature is radically different than yours.

I like that you appear to truly believe the things you say, and I like that you do not seem to be the least bit hypocritical in them.


​

Are you okay with the idea that since it is inherently a natural law embodied in the conscience
of all people, we are under it anyway?

I am okay with others embracing that idea, even if I do not embrace it myself.





​

You obviously don't embrace anything good...Your evil persona would make Charles Mansion cringe.

 

[Steven_R]

I got to say, I really agree with Rust's point of view on the subject.



I just try to live by the rule "don't be a dick" and I didn't need help from on high to figure out that's a good way to live.