Ignorant Homophobes fined $13,000 for refusing to host wedding

[Dana7360]

The problem is that if we allow people to say they won't do business with gays because they don't agree with their lifestyle, that leaves the door open to not doing business with people because of race, age, gender, religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc. It will create an apartheid nation, sanctioned by the government. That's unacceptable.

Point taken, but at the same time, shouldn't business owners be allowed to do business with whom they choose to some extent? And if so to what extent?

Depends on the business. If they're open to the public, they have to serve the public. 'We don't serve your kind here' isn't generally accepted as legally valid reasoning.

Can you show me where in the Constitution it states that?

Thanks.

Mark

The 14th Amendment. Everyone is treated equally under the law.

Also, when the business owner applies and receives a business license they agree to comply with all state and federal laws that govern business.

Then there's our equal rights and civil rights laws that say that if you do business with the public you must do it with ALL the public. A business owner can't pick and choose who they sell to.

Then there's also our discrimination laws. Specifically discrimination against a person's sex. That business owner denied those people their services because one of them is of the wrong sex according to the business owner. Which is very illegal according to our sexual discrimination laws.

Just suppose you live in a small town and there's only one place in town that performs wedding ceremonies. There isn't another place to get married within at least 100 miles. When you go there the owner of the establishment denies you that ceremony just because of our sex. Will you allow them to break the law and discriminate against you? Or will you do what real Americans do and stand up for your rights?

If the 14th states everyone has to be treated equally under the law, then forcing a conscientious person with religious convictions to serve for a gay wedding is NOT BEING TREATED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW.

Do you understand that?

Also, when applying for a business license, it is illegal to take away a persons rights as a condition of doing business. So that argument is a non sequitur.

Mark

No. If all other businesses have to follow the law. So do you.

Since the 14th amendment says everyone must be treated equally under the law, then a person who says they're special and shouldn't have to follow the law is breaking the law and violating the 14th amendment.

When applying for a business license you must fill out and sign forms. In those forms the person who signs it is agreeing to follow all state and federal laws that govern business. If you don't want to sign away what you believe is your right to discriminate against people, then don't go into business in America.

Business licenses have been issued for decades. If it was a violation of the law to sign agreeing to follow the laws that govern business, then it wouldn't be included in the business license contract.

Anyone can sign away their rights. It's done all the time. Insurance companies are a very good example. When you sign that contract with an insurance company you agree to sign away your right to a trial by jury. You sign to agree to arbitration. That's signing away your rights and it's perfectly legal.

Agreeing to follow the law isn't violating anyone's rights. Following the law is expected from the citizens of our nation. If it wasn't, no business owner would be safe. There wouldn't be any police to protect their business from thieves and looters. It would also mean that we would have "whites only" signs still hanging in businesses across America.

 

[80zephyr]

Good question. Which side you want to look at it from? Freedom of religion is a fundamental Right of the US Constitution. That includes all its tenets.

If I don't want someone's gay ass in my church, stay out. Go start your own.

If the church is not allowed in government, why is the government allowed in church?

Your opinion on how they interpret the bible is irrelevant. They believed it just as you believe that being gay is sinful...and yet there are plenty of people that disagree with YOUR interpretation.

As I said....it appears that to some, some religious beliefs are more equal than others.

True. You mean like people trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of normal people?

Homosexuality IS normal.

Maybe you should consider the reasons why you're fantasizing about what's being shoved down your throat ...

Interesting. Can you tell me what other sexual activity is normal, and which ones you consider abnormal?

Mark

Sure. That's easy.

Anything between consenting adults that harms no one is their business and none of yours. If it makes them happy, THAT is their normal.

What is abnormal is the Peeping Tom, like you, who wants to control what other people are doing.

MYOB

THAT is their normal would be correct. However, it is not normal in the standard usage of the word.

Hell, "normal" for a serial killer is to commit murder. Doesn't mean its normal.

BTW, I don't want to control what you are doing. I could care less. But, I do care very much about what you want us to do for you. In reality, it is you who are the Peeping Tom.

Mark

 

[bodecea]

Good question. Which side you want to look at it from? Freedom of religion is a fundamental Right of the US Constitution. That includes all its tenets.

If I don't want someone's gay ass in my church, stay out. Go start your own.

If the church is not allowed in government, why is the government allowed in church?

As I said....it appears that to some, some religious beliefs are more equal than others.

True. You mean like people trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of normal people?

Homosexuality IS normal.

Maybe you should consider the reasons why you're fantasizing about what's being shoved down your throat ...

Interesting. Can you tell me what other sexual activity is normal, and which ones you consider abnormal?

Mark

Sure. That's easy.

Anything between consenting adults that harms no one is their business and none of yours. If it makes them happy, THAT is their normal.

What is abnormal is the Peeping Tom, like you, who wants to control what other people are doing.

MYOB

THAT is their normal would be correct. However, it is not normal in the standard usage of the word.

Hell, "normal" for a serial killer is to commit murder. Doesn't mean its normal.

BTW, I don't want to control what you are doing. I could care less. But, I do care very much about what you want us to do for you. In reality, it is you who are the Peeping Tom.

Mark

Did you just compare law-abiding, tax-paying gay citizens with murderers? Why, yes you did.

 

[Dana7360]

But surely there are some exceptions, even there? Ejecting a rowdy drunk from a bar, "no shoes, no shirt, no service", jacket and tie dress codes, etc. Where does one draw the line? Especially when you consider religious freedom is protected by the Bill of Rights?

To me it's not an especially simple issue and I think both sides have valid cases to be made.

Where is the line drawn?

I would say the logical thing to understand is one right should not trump another. A gays "right to marriage" does not trump a persons "freedom of religion".

In such a conflict, they should go their separate ways, no harm, no foul.

Mark

Public accommodation laws, which have been around since the 60s, disagree.

When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To Justify Racism Instead Of Homophobia

This time its different. Homosexuality is a sin, according to the bible. Being "black" wasn't.

Mark

If you're a christian then why are you quoting the Tora? The old testament is jewish faith. The new testament is the christian faith. jesus never said one word about homosexuality. In fact, jesus hung out with 12 men, never married and never had kids.

The old testament says to not eat pork or shellfish, or not wear clothes made from 2 different fabrics or to not wear glasses. The old testament also says that life starts when the first breath of air is taken through the nose. Yet christians insist that the bible says life starts at conception. So if you want to use the old testament to discriminate against gay people then you better be ready to believe that life starts with when the first breath of air is taken through the nose. You better not eat shellfish, don't wear glasses and don't eat pork.

If you want to follow the Tora then convert and become jewish. If you want to remain christian then you should follow the christian gospel. Not the jewish one.

jesus said that you should sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. When did you do that? jesus said that you're supposed to feed those who are hungry and clothe those who are cold. When did you do that? jesus said what you've done to the least of our brothers and sisters you've done to me. When did you do that? jesus also said not to judge anyone, that's the job of the christian god.

I find it very hypocritical of christians who pick and choose what parts of the christian bible they want to follow. Who also pick and choose what parts of the jewish gospels they follow.

I am not very religious, but I know that references to homosexuality exist in the new testament.

In Catholic religion, the old testament is used for history purposes only. Christ established the new testament which basically overrides the old testament.

BTW, I am not judging gays. They can do what they want. What I am against is them trying to normalize their lifestyle to the public. By forcing the rest of us to accept them, they are in actuality "judging" us.

Mark

If you're not very religious then why did you use religion to excuse discriminating against homosexual people?

Please show me where in the bible that jesus said homosexuality is wrong.

I know I'll be waiting for a very long time.

I used to be a christian. I lived and breathed the bible and jesus christ. I know what's in the christian bible. Thus I know you're wrong.

Stop lying.

 

[80zephyr]

Homosexuality IS normal.

Proven by the fact that homosexuality is the means of reproduction for the species.

Yer a right fucking genius, Pillowbite.

There it is again - name calling that indicates a very bizarre jealousy and fear of homosexuality.

See above for my opinion of non-reproductive sexual activity.

Face it folks. As distressing as it obviously is for you to consider, there are lots of people out there, gleefully having sex for no other reason than their own selfish enjoyment and the enjoyment of their partner(s).

You don't have to partake but you don't get to tell others that sex without the goal of procreation is abnormal.

No one said anything like that. He simply stated biological facts that lead to a logical conclusion. That by any measure, homosexual sex is not normal.

Mark

 

[Dana7360]

Ask the Civil Rights Act that protects race, religion, country of origin, etc. You're asking why we have PA laws. I'm sure you can find the answer if you try really, really hard.

If the Civil Rights Act protects religion, then forcing someone to act in defiance of their religion is breaking the law, is it not?

Mark

Yes...if someone of a certain religion seeks to be served in a business and that business refuses them, that business can be fined. You need to brush up on the DIFFERENCE between the rights of a business vs. the rights of a customer.

The right to freedom or religion recognizes that all people have the same right to it. The rights of a customer does not trump the rights of the business owner, nor should they.

Mark

Actually no.

When a person applies for and accepts a business license they've agreed to follow all state and federal laws that govern business. So they signed their right to discriminate away when they signed the forms for that business license.

If you want to do business legally in America you have to follow the law. A business owner can't pick and choose what laws they want to follow and they can't use religion to excuse breaking the law. Otherwise we would still have "whites only" signs everywhere.

The business owners who discriminate against one portion of the public have broken the law, violated the constitution and violated the contract they signed with the state that allows them to do business legally with the public. That business license and the papers filed to get it are contracts between the business owner and the state.

If they don't want to do business with all of the public, they should expect to accept the consequences of their crime.

Sorry, you are incorrect. While they do sign away their right to discriminate, they most certainly do not sign away their religious freedom.

As for "following the law", I want to know why its OK for a business to post a "no guns allowed" sign on the door? The right to bear and carry has been upheld almost everywhere now, and business's still regulate who they let in.

Do you want that to change as well?

Mark

They aren't discriminating against anyone. That person is perfectly free to do business as long as they leave their gun outside.

A gun isn't a person. It's a thing. Not allowing guns in an establishment doesn't discriminate against person.

Homosexuals can't leave their sexuality outside.

Plus the constitution clearly says that business can be regulated. If you want to own a gun fine. A business owner has the right to ask you to leave it outside their business. They aren't denying anyone their services.

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have the right to break our laws. We have laws that allow a business to request no guns be in their establishment. We don't have any laws that say that business owners can discriminate against homosexuals.

 

[BlackSand]

Anything between consenting adults that harms no one is their business and none of yours. If it makes them happy, THAT is their normal

A lot of people might actually agree with you there ... Of course the problem addressed in the OP is about a couple who made their business someone else's business.

.

Yes...the couple running the BUSINESS who selectively discriminated, against the business laws of their state.

Hold on there missy ... You opened a can of worms yesterday talking about what does not actually exist in reality.

The state same sex marriage law addresses same sex marriages ... It is not business law. The Pennsylvania Public Accommodations Law doesn't even address sexual orientation.

"It is unlawful for any owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent, or employee of any public accommodation to discriminate against any person in the full use and enjoyment of such public accommodation, on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, ancestry , national origin, disability , known association with a person with a disabilit y, use of a guide or support animal due to blindness, deafness or physical disability or because the user is a handler or trainer of such animals."

Guess we need to go back and re-examine the actual text of the law.

.

 

[80zephyr]

Point taken, but at the same time, shouldn't business owners be allowed to do business with whom they choose to some extent? And if so to what extent?

Depends on the business. If they're open to the public, they have to serve the public. 'We don't serve your kind here' isn't generally accepted as legally valid reasoning.

Can you show me where in the Constitution it states that?

Thanks.

Mark

The 14th Amendment. Everyone is treated equally under the law.

Also, when the business owner applies and receives a business license they agree to comply with all state and federal laws that govern business.

Then there's our equal rights and civil rights laws that say that if you do business with the public you must do it with ALL the public. A business owner can't pick and choose who they sell to.

Then there's also our discrimination laws. Specifically discrimination against a person's sex. That business owner denied those people their services because one of them is of the wrong sex according to the business owner. Which is very illegal according to our sexual discrimination laws.

Just suppose you live in a small town and there's only one place in town that performs wedding ceremonies. There isn't another place to get married within at least 100 miles. When you go there the owner of the establishment denies you that ceremony just because of our sex. Will you allow them to break the law and discriminate against you? Or will you do what real Americans do and stand up for your rights?

If the 14th states everyone has to be treated equally under the law, then forcing a conscientious person with religious convictions to serve for a gay wedding is NOT BEING TREATED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW.

Do you understand that?

Also, when applying for a business license, it is illegal to take away a persons rights as a condition of doing business. So that argument is a non sequitur.

Mark

No. If all other businesses have to follow the law. So do you.

Since the 14th amendment says everyone must be treated equally under the law, then a person who says they're special and shouldn't have to follow the law is breaking the law and violating the 14th amendment.

When applying for a business license you must fill out and sign forms. In those forms the person who signs it is agreeing to follow all state and federal laws that govern business. If you don't want to sign away what you believe is your right to discriminate against people, then don't go into business in America.

Business licenses have been issued for decades. If it was a violation of the law to sign agreeing to follow the laws that govern business, then it wouldn't be included in the business license contract.

Anyone can sign away their rights. It's done all the time. Insurance companies are a very good example. When you sign that contract with an insurance company you agree to sign away your right to a trial by jury. You sign to agree to arbitration. That's signing away your rights and it's perfectly legal.

Agreeing to follow the law isn't violating anyone's rights. Following the law is expected from the citizens of our nation. If it wasn't, no business owner would be safe. There wouldn't be any police to protect their business from thieves and looters. It would also mean that we would have "whites only" signs still hanging in businesses across America.

You said this:

Since the 14th amendment says everyone must be treated equally under the law,

Denying a persons religious freedom is not equal treatment. No matter what you say. Logic dictates it.

Mark

 

[Uncensored2008]

Reproduction of the species doesn't really need the help of homosexuals now, does it?

Normal and natural shortbus, normal and natural.

 

[80zephyr]

Good question. Which side you want to look at it from? Freedom of religion is a fundamental Right of the US Constitution. That includes all its tenets.

If I don't want someone's gay ass in my church, stay out. Go start your own.

If the church is not allowed in government, why is the government allowed in church?
True. You mean like people trying to shove homosexuality down the throats of normal people?

Homosexuality IS normal.

Maybe you should consider the reasons why you're fantasizing about what's being shoved down your throat ...

Interesting. Can you tell me what other sexual activity is normal, and which ones you consider abnormal?

Mark

Sure. That's easy.

Anything between consenting adults that harms no one is their business and none of yours. If it makes them happy, THAT is their normal.

What is abnormal is the Peeping Tom, like you, who wants to control what other people are doing.

MYOB

THAT is their normal would be correct. However, it is not normal in the standard usage of the word.

Hell, "normal" for a serial killer is to commit murder. Doesn't mean its normal.

BTW, I don't want to control what you are doing. I could care less. But, I do care very much about what you want us to do for you. In reality, it is you who are the Peeping Tom.

Mark

Did you just compare law-abiding, tax-paying gay citizens with murderers? Why, yes you did.

I like to use extreme examples to prove the absurdity of certain positions.

Its a quirk of mine.

Mark

 

[Dana7360]

The more you do research into the actual text of the law ... Sexual orientation is an assumed protection not identified. There are existing laws that have been passed subsequently at the state level based on that simple assumption.

.

I don't like to assume what a law says. If I can assume something that is not stated, then any law becomes meaningless. At that point, "the law" becomes whatever you want it to be.

A dangerous concept, IMO.

Mark

I agree ... That is why I am surprised.

Reading the legislation like the Equal Rights Act and the Equal Employment Opportunity Act ... Sexual orientation is not identified in the text. We have been led to believe that sexual orientation identifies a protected class which isn't so according to the law at the Federal level.

Other legislative bodies have decided to include sexual orientation as a protected class without grounds in the previously existing law. The law at the Federal level that specifically identifies sexual orientation includes gender identification and hasn't even passed Congress yet.

Go Figure!

.

We have laws against sexual discrimination. The civil rights act makes sexual discrimination illegal.

Homosexuals are being denied the marriage ceremony by some people because one person is of the wrong sex.

That's against our civil rights laws. It's also against the laws that makes sexual discrimination illegal.

I'm not homosexual but if I was and lived in an area that didn't include gays in the PA laws, I would still sue that business owner on the grounds of sexual discrimination and I would win. Since I'm a bitch and hate discrimination in any form, I would also have financially destroyed the business owner and the business. I would sue that business for as much money as I possibly could and made sure that the owner was so financially destroyed, they wouldn't be able to recover. I have no sympathy for people who believe they're special and laws don't apply to them.

Guess what? You have absolutely no legal leg to stand on.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Ah....here it is. We're Communists now.

Was there a time when you weren't?

 

[80zephyr]

I would say the logical thing to understand is one right should not trump another. A gays "right to marriage" does not trump a persons "freedom of religion".

In such a conflict, they should go their separate ways, no harm, no foul.

Mark

Public accommodation laws, which have been around since the 60s, disagree.

When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To Justify Racism Instead Of Homophobia

This time its different. Homosexuality is a sin, according to the bible. Being "black" wasn't.

Mark

If you're a christian then why are you quoting the Tora? The old testament is jewish faith. The new testament is the christian faith. jesus never said one word about homosexuality. In fact, jesus hung out with 12 men, never married and never had kids.

The old testament says to not eat pork or shellfish, or not wear clothes made from 2 different fabrics or to not wear glasses. The old testament also says that life starts when the first breath of air is taken through the nose. Yet christians insist that the bible says life starts at conception. So if you want to use the old testament to discriminate against gay people then you better be ready to believe that life starts with when the first breath of air is taken through the nose. You better not eat shellfish, don't wear glasses and don't eat pork.

If you want to follow the Tora then convert and become jewish. If you want to remain christian then you should follow the christian gospel. Not the jewish one.

jesus said that you should sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. When did you do that? jesus said that you're supposed to feed those who are hungry and clothe those who are cold. When did you do that? jesus said what you've done to the least of our brothers and sisters you've done to me. When did you do that? jesus also said not to judge anyone, that's the job of the christian god.

I find it very hypocritical of christians who pick and choose what parts of the christian bible they want to follow. Who also pick and choose what parts of the jewish gospels they follow.

I am not very religious, but I know that references to homosexuality exist in the new testament.

In Catholic religion, the old testament is used for history purposes only. Christ established the new testament which basically overrides the old testament.

BTW, I am not judging gays. They can do what they want. What I am against is them trying to normalize their lifestyle to the public. By forcing the rest of us to accept them, they are in actuality "judging" us.

Mark

If you're not very religious then why did you use religion to excuse discriminating against homosexual people?

Please show me where in the bible that jesus said homosexuality is wrong.

I know I'll be waiting for a very long time.

I used to be a christian. I lived and breathed the bible and jesus christ. I know what's in the christian bible. Thus I know you're wrong.

Stop lying.

I used religion to show why they think they can. We are talking about homosexuality and religion, are we not? As for Jesus in the bible, I could care less. To say that homosexuality is not mentioned in the New Testament is being deceitful. We both know that it is.

BTW, Jesus said this about marriage:

‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.

Funny, I don't see that he included gays in that statement. Could it be that it was on purpose?

Mark

 

[BlackSand]

We have laws against sexual discrimination. The civil rights act makes sexual discrimination illegal.

Homosexuals are being denied the marriage ceremony by some people because one person is of the wrong sex.

That's against our civil rights laws. It's also against the laws that makes sexual discrimination illegal.

I'm not homosexual but if I was and lived in an area that didn't include gays in the PA laws, I would still sue that business owner on the grounds of sexual discrimination and I would win. Since I'm a bitch and hate discrimination in any form, I would also have financially destroyed the business owner and the business. I would sue that business for as much money as I possibly could and made sure that the owner was so financially destroyed, they wouldn't be able to recover. I have no sympathy for people who believe they're special and laws don't apply to them.

Guess what? You have absolutely no legal leg to stand on.

None of the laws you stated identify sexual orientation as a protected class. If you would like proceed with measures to include sexual orientation and gender identification in legislation ... You need to contact your Representative in the House where legislation passed by the Senate is waiting approval.

.

 

[80zephyr]

If the Civil Rights Act protects religion, then forcing someone to act in defiance of their religion is breaking the law, is it not?

Mark

Yes...if someone of a certain religion seeks to be served in a business and that business refuses them, that business can be fined. You need to brush up on the DIFFERENCE between the rights of a business vs. the rights of a customer.

The right to freedom or religion recognizes that all people have the same right to it. The rights of a customer does not trump the rights of the business owner, nor should they.

Mark

Actually no.

When a person applies for and accepts a business license they've agreed to follow all state and federal laws that govern business. So they signed their right to discriminate away when they signed the forms for that business license.

If you want to do business legally in America you have to follow the law. A business owner can't pick and choose what laws they want to follow and they can't use religion to excuse breaking the law. Otherwise we would still have "whites only" signs everywhere.

The business owners who discriminate against one portion of the public have broken the law, violated the constitution and violated the contract they signed with the state that allows them to do business legally with the public. That business license and the papers filed to get it are contracts between the business owner and the state.

If they don't want to do business with all of the public, they should expect to accept the consequences of their crime.

Sorry, you are incorrect. While they do sign away their right to discriminate, they most certainly do not sign away their religious freedom.

As for "following the law", I want to know why its OK for a business to post a "no guns allowed" sign on the door? The right to bear and carry has been upheld almost everywhere now, and business's still regulate who they let in.

Do you want that to change as well?

Mark

They aren't discriminating against anyone. That person is perfectly free to do business as long as they leave their gun outside.

A gun isn't a person. It's a thing. Not allowing guns in an establishment doesn't discriminate against person.

Homosexuals can't leave their sexuality outside.

Plus the constitution clearly says that business can be regulated. If you want to own a gun fine. A business owner has the right to ask you to leave it outside their business. They aren't denying anyone their services.

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have the right to break our laws. We have laws that allow a business to request no guns be in their establishment. We don't have any laws that say that business owners can discriminate against homosexuals.

Wrong. While the gun is a thing, carrying of the gun is a right. If we can have laws that allow business's to limit any right, then they should be well within those limits concerning homosexuals.

Homosexuality is not special when it concerns rights. No matter how much you wish it so.

Mark

 

[bodecea]

Homosexuality IS normal.

Maybe you should consider the reasons why you're fantasizing about what's being shoved down your throat ...

Interesting. Can you tell me what other sexual activity is normal, and which ones you consider abnormal?

Mark

Sure. That's easy.

Anything between consenting adults that harms no one is their business and none of yours. If it makes them happy, THAT is their normal.

What is abnormal is the Peeping Tom, like you, who wants to control what other people are doing.

MYOB

THAT is their normal would be correct. However, it is not normal in the standard usage of the word.

Hell, "normal" for a serial killer is to commit murder. Doesn't mean its normal.

BTW, I don't want to control what you are doing. I could care less. But, I do care very much about what you want us to do for you. In reality, it is you who are the Peeping Tom.

Mark

Did you just compare law-abiding, tax-paying gay citizens with murderers? Why, yes you did.

I like to use extreme examples to prove the absurdity of certain positions.

Its a quirk of mine.
Mark

It seems that you fail in that regard. Homosexuals are law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. Murderers kill people, breaking the law and hurting others. So...where would there be any kind of valid basis for comparison? (note: has this business ever stated they would refuse their business service to murderers?)

 

[Dana7360]

Depends on the business. If they're open to the public, they have to serve the public. 'We don't serve your kind here' isn't generally accepted as legally valid reasoning.

Can you show me where in the Constitution it states that?

Thanks.

Mark

The 14th Amendment. Everyone is treated equally under the law.

Also, when the business owner applies and receives a business license they agree to comply with all state and federal laws that govern business.

Then there's our equal rights and civil rights laws that say that if you do business with the public you must do it with ALL the public. A business owner can't pick and choose who they sell to.

Then there's also our discrimination laws. Specifically discrimination against a person's sex. That business owner denied those people their services because one of them is of the wrong sex according to the business owner. Which is very illegal according to our sexual discrimination laws.

Just suppose you live in a small town and there's only one place in town that performs wedding ceremonies. There isn't another place to get married within at least 100 miles. When you go there the owner of the establishment denies you that ceremony just because of our sex. Will you allow them to break the law and discriminate against you? Or will you do what real Americans do and stand up for your rights?

If the 14th states everyone has to be treated equally under the law, then forcing a conscientious person with religious convictions to serve for a gay wedding is NOT BEING TREATED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW.

Do you understand that?

Also, when applying for a business license, it is illegal to take away a persons rights as a condition of doing business. So that argument is a non sequitur.

Mark

No. If all other businesses have to follow the law. So do you.

Since the 14th amendment says everyone must be treated equally under the law, then a person who says they're special and shouldn't have to follow the law is breaking the law and violating the 14th amendment.

When applying for a business license you must fill out and sign forms. In those forms the person who signs it is agreeing to follow all state and federal laws that govern business. If you don't want to sign away what you believe is your right to discriminate against people, then don't go into business in America.

Business licenses have been issued for decades. If it was a violation of the law to sign agreeing to follow the laws that govern business, then it wouldn't be included in the business license contract.

Anyone can sign away their rights. It's done all the time. Insurance companies are a very good example. When you sign that contract with an insurance company you agree to sign away your right to a trial by jury. You sign to agree to arbitration. That's signing away your rights and it's perfectly legal.

Agreeing to follow the law isn't violating anyone's rights. Following the law is expected from the citizens of our nation. If it wasn't, no business owner would be safe. There wouldn't be any police to protect their business from thieves and looters. It would also mean that we would have "whites only" signs still hanging in businesses across America.

You said this:

Since the 14th amendment says everyone must be treated equally under the law,

Denying a persons religious freedom is not equal treatment. No matter what you say. Logic dictates it.

Mark

Business isn't religion. No one is telling those business people they can't be religious. If they were a church they would be exempted but they're not a church and they can't expect to be special from everyone else and be allowed to violate the law.

What the business people are doing is a violation of the business license contract, violation of the 14th amendment and violation of our anti discrimination laws.

You can talk about religious freedom all you want. It won't make any difference. You're in the minority here and you're advocating violating laws and our constitution.

That business violated the law and they should expect to pay the consequences of their crime. It's a crime to violate the law.

 

[BluesLegend]

A business owner should have the right to choose not to serve a customer. If some stinky biker walked in I have the right to tell him to get out. If I don't want to serve gays meh what's the big deal? Being gay or a biker is not the same as discrimination based on race. Gays enough with the drama already.

 

[80zephyr]

The more you do research into the actual text of the law ... Sexual orientation is an assumed protection not identified. There are existing laws that have been passed subsequently at the state level based on that simple assumption.

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I don't like to assume what a law says. If I can assume something that is not stated, then any law becomes meaningless. At that point, "the law" becomes whatever you want it to be.

A dangerous concept, IMO.

Mark

I agree ... That is why I am surprised.

Reading the legislation like the Equal Rights Act and the Equal Employment Opportunity Act ... Sexual orientation is not identified in the text. We have been led to believe that sexual orientation identifies a protected class which isn't so according to the law at the Federal level.

Other legislative bodies have decided to include sexual orientation as a protected class without grounds in the previously existing law. The law at the Federal level that specifically identifies sexual orientation includes gender identification and hasn't even passed Congress yet.

Go Figure!

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We have laws against sexual discrimination. The civil rights act makes sexual discrimination illegal.

Homosexuals are being denied the marriage ceremony by some people because one person is of the wrong sex.

That's against our civil rights laws. It's also against the laws that makes sexual discrimination illegal.

I'm not homosexual but if I was and lived in an area that didn't include gays in the PA laws, I would still sue that business owner on the grounds of sexual discrimination and I would win. Since I'm a bitch and hate discrimination in any form, I would also have financially destroyed the business owner and the business. I would sue that business for as much money as I possibly could and made sure that the owner was so financially destroyed, they wouldn't be able to recover. I have no sympathy for people who believe they're special and laws don't apply to them.

Guess what? You have absolutely no legal leg to stand on.

You said this:

Since I'm a bitch and hate discrimination in any form,

I wonder how you'd feel in the KKK and the American Nazi party wanted to book a party at your place?

Mark

 

[BlackSand]

Business isn't religion. No one is telling those business people they can't be religious. If they were a church they would be exempted but they're not a church and they can't expect to be special from everyone else and be allowed to violate the law.

What the business people are doing is a violation of the business license contract, violation of the 14th amendment and violation of our anti discrimination laws.

You can talk about religious freedom all you want. It won't make any difference. You're in the minority here and you're advocating violating laws and our constitution.

That business violated the law and they should expect to pay the consequences of their crime. It's a crime to violate the law.

The anti-discrimination laws you speak of do not include sexual orientation as an identified protected class. Legislation regarding the establishment of sexual orientation as a protected class is still pending in Congress.

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