Debate Now I'm Leaving! Who Is With Me?

[Foxfyre]

This discussion is intended as a hypothetical based on a 'what if' concept. Those who don't enjoy using imagination and creativity to discuss an idea or concept will probably not enjoy participation in the exercise. Those who do are encouraged to have fun with it, but while the process can be light hearted, the concept within it is not. It is quite serious.

The hypothetical:

I have acquired a quite large tract of land in central Kansas, the geographic center of the continental United States. And I propose a new Declaration of Independence that will announce our secession from Washington DC and will form a new nation with a new government seated on my tract of land that I will donate for that purpose.

The Declaration will contain all the necessary eloquent language and statements of our beliefs, purpose, and reasons for secession as did the original, but can be summarized something like this:

Whereas the government of the United States of America has long violated the principles therein, has far exceeded its authority, and has become oppressive and detrimental to the people by reinterpreting or ignoring the Constitution of the United States of America, it has become necessary to disassociate ourselves from that government.

We will take the best of the existing U.S. Constitution as the model for a new nation. This Constitution will be 'cleaned up' so that the original intent of the various articles and Bill of Rights will not be easily misinterpreted. (All other existing amendments would have to be debated and re-adopted.) And a new Constitution will reflect a society that has moved beyond the patriarchal and racial assumptions of our historical past and secure the rights of all on an equal basis.

The government will be charged to secure the unalienable rights of the people, among which are life, liberty, property, and pursuit of one's own prosperity and happiness.

The central goverment will also provide the common defense, promote (not provide) the blessings of liberty to all, enact such legislation as is necessary for various states to function as one nation. The government will also restore the power to the people to form whatever sorts of societies they wish to have and live their lives as they choose to live them without central government interference.​

So who is with me? Who would like their state to join with others who want a do-over and a chance to get it right this time?

Rules for this discussion:

1. No ad hominem or personal attacks directed to members, political parties, or ideologies (liberals, conservatives, etc.) The topic is not what other members or Republicans/Democrats, etc. think, want, hope for, or any other such personal observations. Keep it civil and on topic.

2. Words can mean different things to different people. Do not assume that a term used by one person means the same thing it means to another and be prepared to define the terms used in your argument.

3. Links can be useful but are not required. If you do use them, post a illustrative paragraph or two that makes the point you want to make with the link or explain in your own words a summary of what your linked material will tell us.


THE HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED:

You have an opportunity to participate in a process of disassociating with the current U.S. government and forming a new nation. Would you be interested in representing your state? No yes or no answers please. Explain why or why not and the advantages and/or problems/issues you would see in such a process.

 

[Foxfyre]

The very first issues that would likely come up in discussion would be:

1. How would the new government be funded?

and,

2. Are we going to allow the states free rein in deciding such issues as welfare, marriage, abortion, regulation of drugs, guns, healthcare, and other controversial matters?

 

[westwall]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

 

[Foxfyre]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

There is that problem, yes, but I was just wanting a really central location for the seat of government. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma and Texas will be joining the new nation anyway as will Nebraska and the Dakotas giving us a common border with Canada as well.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

A question concerning the rules:

Is guffawing considered to be "ad hom"?


Seriously, I recently read of some yahoo who did something similar. He didn't last very long though.

Perhaps you would be willing to post links to the research you have done that makes you think this is possible or desirable.

 

[westwall]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

There is that problem, yes, but I was just wanting a really central location for the seat of government. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma and Texas will be joining the new nation anyway.

Ahhh, but you didn't specify that in the initial post! That's not proper!

 

[Statistikhengst]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

Yes, indeed, starting landlocked is not exactly the brightest of tactical moves. Somewhere with a nice coastline is prolly good.

I recommend Vancouver.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

There is that problem, yes, but I was just wanting a really central location for the seat of government. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma and Texas will be joining the new nation anyway as will Nebraska and the Dakotas giving us a common border with Canada as well.

Well, you do know what people say about assumptions...

 

[Nosmo King]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

I agree. It's a long walk to the beach from central Kansas, and the lobster bisque there has got to suck.

I'd go if there was a chance our new 2nd amendment excluded rapid fire weapons.

 

[G.T.]

No. The u.s. seems fine as is from where i sit.

Taxes are not historically high.
We are fighting wars, but not the kind that require drafts and the women to work the mills.
We are technologically advanced, and nasa is doing great things that id sincerely hate to miss out on their benefits.
I make great money. Im free to do 99.9% of the shit i ever feel like doing.

Ive no complaints at the moment when purposely zoning out the partisam bickering and doom and gloom.

Things are quite literally superkewl

 

[Statistikhengst]

I am sorry. In your poll, I don't see "pineapple". Maybe there was a software failure??



Now, as to the actual, uhm, declaration of Independence, have you decided if your blessed stretch of territory has enough firepower to defend itself, should the USA not necessarily like seeing Cowtown, Kansas secede?

 

[FA_Q2]

Of course. Who would not be interested in creating a state that would reflect what they believe to be the best form of governance?
The only reason to not represent would be that you disagree with the original charter.

 

[Foxfyre]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

There is that problem, yes, but I was just wanting a really central location for the seat of government. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma and Texas will be joining the new nation anyway.

Ahhh, but you didn't specify that in the initial post! That's not proper!

Sure I did, in the posted question to be discussed:

". . .Explain why or why not and the advantages and/or problems/issues you would see in such a process."

You identified one problem right off the bat. I just came up with a solution for it.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

Yes, indeed, starting landlocked is not exactly the brightest of tactical moves. Somewhere with a nice coastline is prolly good.

I recommend Vancouver.

Not Florida though cuz quite a lot of the shore line will soon be under water.

 

[Statistikhengst]

From the, uhm, OP:

"We will take the best of the existing U.S. Constitution as the model for a new nation. This Constitution will be 'cleaned up' so that the original intent of the various articles and Bill of Rights will not be easily misinterpreted. (All other existing amendments would have to be debated and re-adopted.) And a new Constitution will reflect a society that has moved beyond the patriarchal and racial assumptions of our historical past and secure the rights of all on an equal basis."



Which parts need to get kirby'd up??



I guess the indentured servitude part could go, or would you like to keep it?

And shouldn't the 2nd amendment become the 1st article of Liberty in the New Constitution of the Breadbasket States of America (BSA)?

 

[FA_Q2]

I am sorry. In your poll, I don't see "pineapple". Maybe there was a software failure??



Now, as to the actual, uhm, declaration of Independence, have you decided if your blessed stretch of territory has enough firepower to defend itself, should the USA not necessarily like seeing Cowtown, Kansas secede?

I move for a Gandhi like resistance – simply refuse to participate until we are allowed our own governance.
Are you ready and willing to obliterate those who are willing to live in peace?

 

[Statistikhengst]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

There is that problem, yes, but I was just wanting a really central location for the seat of government. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma and Texas will be joining the new nation anyway.

Ahhh, but you didn't specify that in the initial post! That's not proper!

Hear, hear!!!

 

[Statistikhengst]

I am sorry. In your poll, I don't see "pineapple". Maybe there was a software failure??



Now, as to the actual, uhm, declaration of Independence, have you decided if your blessed stretch of territory has enough firepower to defend itself, should the USA not necessarily like seeing Cowtown, Kansas secede?

I move for a Gandhi like resistance – simply refuse to participate until we are allowed our own governance.
Are you ready and willing to obliterate those who are willing to live in peace?

Yes, Satyagraha could be a good option. But all 13 principles of Ahimsa must be learned by heart first.

 

[Foxfyre]

Might I suggest you choose a better tract of land first. You need access to the sea so that your "country" can't be strangled before it even gets a chance to begin.

I agree. It's a long walk to the beach from central Kansas, and the lobster bisque there has got to suck.

I'd go if there was a chance our new 2nd amendment excluded rapid fire weapons.

Well can I put you down to represent your state then Nosmo? I don't see why anything would necessarily have to be off the table for discussion, though I think those who are leaning toward the new Declaration of Independence probably would not agree to federal control of rapid fire weapons, but would not interfere with a state that chose to regulate that.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I am sorry. In your poll, I don't see "pineapple". Maybe there was a software failure??



Now, as to the actual, uhm, declaration of Independence, have you decided if your blessed stretch of territory has enough firepower to defend itself, should the USA not necessarily like seeing Cowtown, Kansas secede?

Perhaps militia groups would be willing to help out. I've read there may be as many as 40K followers of various groups and heck, all they have to do is beat those guys shown in red, on the right below.