Ineffectiveness of the Church in America

[Gagafritz]

If you are looking for perfection on Earth, it isn't happening nor will it happen. Actually, the opposite. But, there is a body of believers influencing the world for good. You may not see that or choose not to see that. However, things will spiral downward until the Second Coming. Then, the Earth and mankind will be redeemed into what God intended it to be.

 

[catzmeow]

Another discussion got me thinking on this and what I'd like to ask the membership here is this:

Why has the church become so ineffective?

Despite over 80% of Americans identifying as Christians and more than 60% attending Church weekly or monthly, how do we account for the great divide in our culture between the idea of morality in Church and the one outside Church. Why can't the Church reach us in a more effective way on issues like abortion, violence, charity and good will? How many people here, on this forum, can tell us that they are Christians? And once they do tell us that, I don't suppose we will find repeated and sustained incidents of vulgarity, profanity and ill will left here in their wake, right?

Why do we leave our values in the pews?

Where did Jesus Christ preach about abortion?

More serious answer: John 18:36: "My kingdom is not of this world." The church isn't in the world to transform the world into the church, but rather, to transform believers into sanctified creations of God. Attempting political change in the world via religion is destined to failure.

 

[Gagafritz]

Um, if you wanna discuss abortion, try reading Jeremiah.

 

[Sweet Willy]

If you are looking for perfection on Earth, it isn't happening nor will it happen. Actually, the opposite. But, there is a body of believers influencing the world for good. You may not see that or choose not to see that. However, things will spiral downward until the Second Coming. Then, the Earth and mankind will be redeemed into what God intended it to be.

I'm not sure why you want to inject perfection into the conversation. I don't think anyone is asking for perfection or expecting any sort of perfection. The question posed more from the observation that despite wide spread involvement of the Church in American lives, the Church and Christians themselves note the continued decay of Christian morals in our society. The equation is a bit upside down, you see. The bigger the Church gets, the more morals slip. From this I take the conclusion that the church is pretty ineffective, as a whole, on societal behavior. Perfection isn't the question here. It's a matter of proportion. The Church presence goes up, it's influence goes down. Why do you think?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Another discussion got me thinking on this and what I'd like to ask the membership here is this:

Why has the church become so ineffective?

Despite over 80% of Americans identifying as Christians and more than 60% attending Church weekly or monthly, how do we account for the great divide in our culture between the idea of morality in Church and the one outside Church. Why can't the Church reach us in a more effective way on issues like abortion, violence, charity and good will? How many people here, on this forum, can tell us that they are Christians? And once they do tell us that, I don't suppose we will find repeated and sustained incidents of vulgarity, profanity and ill will left here in their wake, right?

Why do we leave our values in the pews?

Where did Jesus Christ preach about abortion?

More serious answer: John 18:36: "My kingdom is not of this world." The church isn't in the world to transform the world into the church, but rather, to transform believers into sanctified creations of God. Attempting political change in the world via religion is destined to failure.

I'm not asking about political change. I am asking in specific about personal values of the people in the Church. Despite people in Church in increasing numbers, it does not translate to consistent moral behavior. Consistent being the operative term here. I know that we're all sinners and we all slip. But surely we aren't going to contend that the behavior of Christians, especially on things like killing people and robbing people and adultery, is not to be expected to be better than the heathen? Are we saying that Christians are not supposed to attempt to be better human beings? And that these attempts at being better people should show us a net improvement in moral behavior? If we don't show results in being better people and following Christ teachings, can I expect that what we have is an all out embrace of the "death bed" conversion? Just be a scoundrel all your life and repent at the end?

I don't really buy that brand of Christianity. I believe we have a purpose on Earth and I believe that purpose is given to us to act upon, not to continually excuse ourselves by the wages of sin.

 

[Gagafritz]

That isn't necessarily true. And, as time marches on the Bible clearly tells us that good will be considered evil and evil will be considered good. That is not a fault of the Church.

 

[Sweet Willy]

That isn't necessarily true. And, as time marches on the Bible clearly tells us that good will be considered evil and evil will be considered good. That is not a fault of the Church.

At what point does killing people become good?

 

[Gagafritz]

Not sure what you are referring too. But, if you are referring to going to war, well Christ and the Bible do not disagree with the need for a nation to sometimes go to war.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Not sure what you are referring too. But, if you are referring to going to war, well Christ and the Bible do not disagree with the need for a nation to sometimes go to war.

When is it good, by Christian standards, to kill people?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Maybe that's not specific enough. I do want you to be sure what I am referring to. This is what I am referring to, in specific:

In what instances do Christian values allow one human to intentionally cause the death of another human? When is "thou shalt not kill" set aside?

 

[Gagafritz]

Thou shalt not murder. And, the Bible in no way negates military service or capital punishment.

 

[Gadawg73]

Military is defense, not murder.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Military is defense, not murder.

So....if I am in the military and I shoot my wife in an argument, I get to claim defense?


Sorry, I don't buy into the whole "thou shalt not murder" Definition. I own several translations of the Bible and was raised in the Baptist church. No one ever said "murder" until politics got involved.

Now, are you guys saying that if I don't kill people, I am sinning?

 

[Sweet Willy]

When we drop a bomb and innocent people are killed, children and unarmed civilians, is that excused under the "murder" exclusion? I mean... is killing children because they were in the way excused too?

 

[Sweet Willy]

How about the Christians we hear talking about issuing "shoot to kill" orders on the Mexican border? Is shooting unarmed civilians considered murder then? Or is that one of those situations where bad will be sold as good?

 

[Sweet Willy]

What about when we get it wrong and accidentally execute someone who was wrongly convicted? Is there an "oops" rule to cover that one?

This murky murder / kill rule seems like its open to an awful lot of blunders.

 

[Sweet Willy]

What about drones? Is there any sort of Christian value about using robots to kill other people?

I mean, where is the moral line drawn? It seems to keep moving. Is God's will for us that flexible or is that us continually changing our view of God's will?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Can we even agree that if just didn't kill people at all, we would never even have to wonder if it was murder? I mean.... that would be OK if we just didn't kill anyone, wouldn't it? Does God say we MUST kill people?

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not seeing a wide divide of conduct or conviction between those who attend a Christian church of whatever denomination on Sunday and their conduct in the world. As Gagafritz mentioned earlier, Christians are no more and no less 'sinners' than anybody else. "Sin" in this case is defined as that which harms ourselves and/or others and/or spoils the perfect creation that God gave us. We are all guilty by 'sins' of omission and commission and at times we all have feet of clay.

But though I know some self-proclaimed Atheists and agnostics who do participate from time to time, I simply don't see ongoing world relief ministries among some of the world's poorest people, or leper colonies, or thrift shops, or soup kitchens, or rehab centers, or homeless shelters, or blood banks, free clinics or hospital auxiliaries, etc. etc. etc. organized, staffed, funded, and maintained by Atheists and agnostics. These are mostly organized, funded, staffed, and operated by mostly Christians.

According to an exhaustive study headed by Arthur Brooks a few years ago, Christians, most especially those who attend church more regularly, are far more likely to contribute to chartieis, far more likely to volunteer, more likely to give blood, more likely to take risks to help others.

The anti-Christian and/or anti-religion crowd may likely focus on the occasional unethical, dishonest, and/or unprincipled person who identifies himself or herself as a Christian. Such people absolutely exist. They exist among Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and every other variety of religion and also among Atheists and agnostics too. They always have and always will.

But those on the inside track who see the big picture know that the Church and the Christians who make it up are absolutely making a difference in relieving suffering and giving a helping hand up and also in providing higher ethics in business and being a stabilizing and positive force in their respective communities - WHEN - Christianity is coupled with a free society.

I think it is no coincidence both in the USA and Mexico and elsewhere that as Christianity has been increasingly criticized and church attendance has declined, corruption and violence have escalated. You can point to no country in which Atheism is the official religious position and/or in which large segments of the population have not been oppressed and denied basic human rights.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I know, I know, I've fired off a bunch of stuff here in succession. I can see that none of this really matters though. The answer to my question lies in this demonstration of excuses we have here on display. Christians just have learned to excuse themselves of everything. One glass of water can be said to equal mountains of goodness. A commission by the state can be said to absolve one of God's law.

You have actually answered my question well. Thank you.