Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[toastman]

I kind of feel bad, we kind of ganged up on Tinmore and he stopped posting...

Tinmore, you still there???

 

[georgephillip]

True...

Israel gave equal rights to everyone who was willing to live in peace under the Israeli government...

Israel gave short shrift and exile to those who sided with their Arab-Muslim neighbor countries in multiple failed attempts to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean and to suicide-bomb and rocket-attack innocent Israeli civilians...

An understandable and logical distinction...

What's the distinction between citizenship and nationality in Israel?

"Israel's Apartheid Laws


"1. Identity and Citizenship

"Law of Return (1950)Grants right of immigration to Jews born anywhere in the world. Amended in 1970 to extend this right to 'a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew.'

"A “Jew” is defined as 'a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.'

"Non-Jewish native-born Palestinians – most importantly those who fled during the Zionist massacres in 1947 and 1948 – are in most cases prevented from returning."

What kind of democracy divides its citizens into two unequal classes?
The same kind Chicago enjoyed in the 1950s?

Israel's Apartheid Laws

Since the laws in Israel apply equality to all groups, I don't know why Georgie Boy is so hot about it, especially when a Black person like the leader of South Africa's daughter says there is no apartheid in Israel. Are you calling a fellow Black like she is a liar, Georgie Boy? Meanwhile, of course, you will never find Georgie Boy complaining about the actual apartheid in the Muslim world. Evidently he has no problem with the lighter-skinned Arabs in Libya keeping the Blacks in cages like in a zoo or with the President of Sudan saying he wants to rid his country of Black tribes. No Jews are involved, so Georgie Boy can't be bothered with what is happening to Blacks in various places. And, Georgie Boy, even someone like you has to be aware that each country can make up their own immigration laws. I am sure you would not be happy with some of the laws elsewhere either.

Israel is NOT apartheid state, says South African leader's daughter - Israel Today | Israel News

"Equality to all groups under the laws of Israel, really?

"Judicial Practice: Equal Protection Cases

"The Israeli courts – guided by the Supreme Court – have consistently decided that discrimination between Arabs and Jews is legitimate based on the founding principles of Israel as a state for the Jewish people; 'nationality' is considered a legitimate basis for discrimination.

"In the State of Israel vs. Ashgoyev (1988), an Israeli settler was convicted by the Tel Aviv District Court of shooting a Palestinian child. The judge sentenced him to a suspended jail term of six months and community service.

"When challenged by critics, the trial judge, Uri Shtruzman, said: 'It is wrong to demand in the name of equality, equal bearing and equal sentences to two offenders who have different nationalities who break the laws of the State. The sentence that deters the one and his audience, does not deter the other and his community.'”

Since Israel is defined as a state of the Jewish nation world-wide, nationality will always trump citizenship among the "chosen community."

 

[georgephillip]

I kind of feel bad, we kind of ganged up on Tinmore and he stopped posting...

Tinmore, you still there???[/QUOTE
Tinmore will be here long after you're surfing with the sharks.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I kind of feel bad, we kind of ganged up on Tinmore and he stopped posting...

Tinmore, you still there???[/QUOTE
Tinmore will be here long after you're surfing with the sharks.

Indeed, I was trying to choose which Palestinian map to post. Here in one from 1948.

Since Israel was founded in 1948 surely one of y'all can post a 1948 map of Israel.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Tinmore will be here long after you're surfing with the sharks."

Unless he decides to take-up Jihad and head to Gaza or the West Bank to help man the barricades on Eviction Day...

 

[Kondor3]

I kind of feel bad, we kind of ganged up on Tinmore and he stopped posting...

Tinmore, you still there???[/QUOTE
Tinmore will be here long after you're surfing with the sharks.

Indeed, I was trying to choose which Palestinian map to post. Here in one from 1948.

Since Israel was founded in 1948 surely one of y'all can post a 1948 map of Israel.

Thank you, Tinny...

Just to be entirely clear...

Assuming that the beige-colored areas are all Palestinian-controlled...

Is this what you (the Palestinians) need, Tinny, in order to make peace with the Jews of the region?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Indeed, I was trying to choose which Palestinian map to post. Here in one from 1948.

Since Israel was founded in 1948 surely one of y'all can post a 1948 map of Israel.

Thank you, Tinny...

Just to be entirely clear...

Assuming that the beige-colored areas are all Palestinian-controlled...

Is this what you (the Palestinians) need, Tinny, in order to make peace with the Jews of the region?

And after resolution 181, after the end of the mandate, after foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, all of Palestine was still there.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

From time to time, I do make mistakes. And from time to time, your arguments are sound and persuasive. But not this time.

I think you are misusing terms. You classify some Palestinians as insurgents

(COMMENT)

Insurgents can be foreign in origin, domestic, or even a combination. The key element is that it operates in opposition to the establish authority (no matter the source of that authority). There is no question that certain Palestinian activities are behind insurgency movements; to include the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the al-Qassam Brigade (HAMAS).

It appears that insurgents are opposed to their own government and policies. I don't see where this would apply to a foreign military occupation.

(COMMENT)

This is not a prerequisite to the definition. While in general, we say an "insurgency is an internal threat that uses subversion and violence to reach political ends;" in the case of an occupation, you view the insurgency from the perspective of the "Occupation Power." And from the view of the "Occupation Power," the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) is an internal threat to the "Occupation Force" and the adjacent sovereignty from which the occupation originates.

Resolution 2625 does not mention Palestine.

The armistice lines (that are specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries) run through Palestine. Please explain how the Palestinians can violate a line that is Palestine on both sides.​

(COMMENT)

Of course it did not mention "Palestine" (State of or the Territory) specifically. It is a generalized concept that is universally applied.

BTW: The State of Palestine is not on both sides of the Demarcation Line. The State of Palestine (alla 1988) is on one side and the State of Israel (alla 1948) is on the other. While the HAMAS Covenant and the PNC Charter stipulate otherwise, I assure you it is not the case.​

Either the State of Palestine is a "State" as declared by the PLO in 1988, with the Armistice Lines as demarcation; --- OR --- there is no legitimate State of Palestine. And if there is a "State of Palestine," then it has boundaries. But they are not the territorial boundaries with the demarcations it had during the former British Mandate. The State of Israel may be in territory formerly known as Palestine, but it is a sovereignty unto itself and not subject to any claim by the Palestinian.

Bot(h) of these are complicated issues. If you would like to discuss them, post them as separate items.

(COMMENT)

I don't think these are that complicated at all:

• If you cross a "demarcation line" either in Korea or the Middle East, you have violated the international law concept.
  
• If you are part of a Hostile activity that operates against the sovereignty of the State of Israel, then you are in violated the international law concept.

(SIDEBAR)

It is understood that a "claim" made by the Palestinians is still outstanding and requires wither litigations or settlement; towit:

That the territory of a State shall not be violated by being the object, even temporarily, of military occupation or of other measures of force taken by another State in contravention of the Charter, and that it shall not be the object of acquisition by another State resulting from such measures or the threat thereof.​

This is a question on two points:

• Defensible Borders; multiple Wars initiated, instigated by, or provoked by, foreign Arab Armies.
• The active threat and demonstrated attempts to undermine the sovereignty of Israel.

The State of Israel has not yet been afforded the opportunity to openly defend itself in litigation over the two decades of terrorism it was subject to before occupation, and the following 40 years of terrorism (albeit diminished) after occupation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...And after resolution 181, after the end of the mandate, after foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, all of Palestine was still there."

Forgive me, Tinny, but I did not ask for a history lesson nor the basis for the dispute.

What I asked was...

"Is this (Palestinian-controlled areas marked as beige-colored, in the map) what you (the Palestinians) require, in order to make permanent peace with the Jews of the region?"

It's your basic 'Yes/No' question.

You can always add qualifiers afterwards.

But your words, coupled with the image, should inform your colleagues as to exactly what it is that you-and-yours seek.

Please answer the question.

Thanks.

 

[toastman]

Thank you, Tinny...

Just to be entirely clear...

Assuming that the beige-colored areas are all Palestinian-controlled...

Is this what you (the Palestinians) need, Tinny, in order to make peace with the Jews of the region?

And after resolution 181, after the end of the mandate, after foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, all of Palestine was still there.

In the area that Israel declared to be Israel in 1948, there was no more Palestine there anymore.
Remember, the Palestinians rejected the partition plan, expecting things to work out in their favor.
I think it goes without saying that it did NOT work in their favor, and they have Syria, Jordan and Egypt to thank for that

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

From time to time, I do make mistakes. And from time to time, your arguments are sound and persuasive. But not this time.

I think you are misusing terms. You classify some Palestinians as insurgents

(COMMENT)

Insurgents can be foreign in origin, domestic, or even a combination. The key element is that it operates in opposition to the establish authority (no matter the source of that authority). There is no question that certain Palestinian activities are behind insurgency movements; to include the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the al-Qassam Brigade (HAMAS).

It appears that insurgents are opposed to their own government and policies. I don't see where this would apply to a foreign military occupation.

(COMMENT)

This is not a prerequisite to the definition. While in general, we say an "insurgency is an internal threat that uses subversion and violence to reach political ends;" in the case of an occupation, you view the insurgency from the perspective of the "Occupation Power." And from the view of the "Occupation Power," the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) is an internal threat to the "Occupation Force" and the adjacent sovereignty from which the occupation originates.

That could be true if you look at it from the criminal's perspective. I don't view a military occupation as an authority. It is just force at the point of a gun.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

And after resolution 181, after the end of the mandate, after foreigners declared themselves to be the state of Israel, and after the 1948 war, all of Palestine was still there.

In the area that Israel declared to be Israel in 1948, there was no more Palestine there anymore.
Remember, the Palestinians rejected the partition plan, expecting things to work out in their favor.
I think it goes without saying that it did NOT work in their favor, and they have Syria, Jordan and Egypt to thank for that

Israel never declared any territory. Israel has no defined territory.

 

[toastman]

The problem with you Tinmore is that you constantly try to portray' YOUR' view, as factual information.

 

[toastman]

In the area that Israel declared to be Israel in 1948, there was no more Palestine there anymore.
Remember, the Palestinians rejected the partition plan, expecting things to work out in their favor.
I think it goes without saying that it did NOT work in their favor, and they have Syria, Jordan and Egypt to thank for that

Israel never declared any territory. Israel has no defined territory.

Of course they don't

 

[Kondor3]

What do YOU claim for territory, Tinny?

Is it the beige-colored portion of the map that you showed to us?

Is that what you need, in order to make peace with the Jews of the region?

A simple 'Yes' or 'No'? will do nicely.

Thank you.

 

[toastman]

All the territory in white is ISRAELI TERRITORY. Deal with it

 

[Kondor3]

But Tinny gets to have his say as well...

And nuthin-says-lovin' like full disclosure...

Tinny continually advocates for the return of Palestinian territories 'stolen' by Israel...

In order to have that conversation, we need to know the EXTENT of those territories...

A simple 'Yes/No' answer to the earlier question will put to rest any concerns on the part of the audience, pertaining to Tinny's expectations and those of his brethren for whom he advocates...

Let's give him a chance to show us what he wants, by imagery, and to confirm that, using the written word...

That way, we all have a basis and point-of-departure and understanding, for future discussion...

C'mon, Tinny, your audience of colleagues awaits...

 

[toastman]

Get ready to take a trip back to 1922 !

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel never declared any territory. Israel has no defined territory.

Of course they don't

Why don't you post an agreement showing where Israel legally acquired any Palestinian territory?

 

[toastman]

Again with this Jibberish ??

Show me where you read that Israel needed permission from the Palestinians in order to declare independence in the area allotted to them in the partition plan
Show me where is says that if the Arabs rejected the partition plan, then ISrael would have no right to create a state in that area.

I don't need documents to prov anything. I have reality on my side.
Go on google, look for yourself. Type in 'Map of ISrael' and you will find an endless amount of websites with a clearly defined map of the State of Israel.

Also, Israel is a FULL member of the U.N Do you really think the U.N would give full membership to a country with no territory ?
Get real now