Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course not, and you don't see themselves as terrorist either. It doesn't make your interpretation true.

There in lays the problem with dedicated insurgencies and prolonged conflicts.

I looked up insurgent in the dictionary.

The Palestinians do not fit the description.

(OBSERVATION)

Insurgents seek to gain power to overthrow or force change of a governing authority.

Insurgency is an internal threat that uses subversion and violence to reach political ends. Conversely, counterinsurgents seek to defeat insurgents and address core grievances to prevent insurgency’s expansion or Executive Summary regeneration. Typically the insurgents will solicit or be offered some type of support from state or non-state actors,
which can include transnational terrorists who take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. Affected nations may request United States support in countering an insurgency, which is typically the circumstances under which US forces become involved in counterinsurgency (COIN) operations.

SOURCE: Foundation for Counterinsurgency

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a hoot, Rocco.

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Calling an occupation an authority.

BTW, you have never explained how Hamas fits the definition of international terrorists.

 

[docmauser1]

Calling an occupation an authority.

Than what palistanian authority is, if not the palistanian occupation?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I believe you are mistaken. I have explained it several times.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course not, and you don't see themselves as terrorist either. It doesn't make your interpretation true.

I looked up insurgent in the dictionary.

The Palestinians do not fit the description.

(OBSERVATION)



The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a hoot, Rocco.

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Calling an occupation an authority.

BTW, you have never explained how Hamas fits the definition of international terrorists.

(COMMENT)

In some cases, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

If Israel, as the Occupying Power, is not an authority, then ---- of course, it cannot be held to any standard under the Geneva Convention. It is either an authority, responsible for certain actions and conditions, or it is not. You cannot claim both.

Second, I've copied this section of General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXXV) many times, where Palestine must "refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines." When Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cross a demarcation line to conduct Article 13 Jihadist activities (Covenant) or Article Article 9 Feday'een Activities (Charter), they move from the realm of domestic terrorism to international terrorism.​

You are arguing the border issue, and it doesn't hold water. It is subterfuge to try and claim some justification as to why a Palestinian Organizations, known to hijack aircraft, conduct piracy on the his seas, perform suicide bombings, and initiate indiscriminate ambush and rocket attacks, should not be considered terrorists.

Either the State of Palestine is a "State" as declared by the PLO in 1988, with the Armistice Lines as demarcation; --- OR --- there is no legitimate State of Palestine. And if there is a "State of Palestine," then it has boundaries. But they are not the territorial boundaries with the demarcations it had during the former British Mandate. The State of Israel may be in territory formerly known as Palestine, but it is a sovereignty unto itself and not subject to any claim by the Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

Oh, and, Tinny...

Do you have a map of the boundaries of a Palestinian State, that you and your brethren perceive as minimally acceptable with respect to land-mass controlled by the Palestinians, in order to secure permanent peace with the Jews of the region?

 

[theliq]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I believe you are mistaken. I have explained it several times.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course not, and you don't see themselves as terrorist either. It doesn't make your interpretation true.


(OBSERVATION)



The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a hoot, Rocco.

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Calling an occupation an authority.

BTW, you have never explained how Hamas fits the definition of international terrorists.

(COMMENT)

In some cases, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

If Israel, as the Occupying Power, is not an authority, then ---- of course, it cannot be held to any standard under the Geneva Convention. It is either an authority, responsible for certain actions and conditions, or it is not. You cannot claim both.

Second, I've copied this section of General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXXV) many times, where Palestine must "refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines." When Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cross a demarcation line to conduct Article 13 Jihadist activities (Covenant) or Article Article 9 Feday'een Activities (Charter), they move from the realm of domestic terrorism to international terrorism.​

You are arguing the border issue, and it doesn't hold water. It is subterfuge to try and claim some justification as to why a Palestinian Organizations, known to hijack aircraft, conduct piracy on the his seas, perform suicide bombings, and initiate indiscriminate ambush and rocket attacks, should not be considered terrorists.

Either the State of Palestine is a "State" as declared by the PLO in 1988, with the Armistice Lines as demarcation; --- OR --- there is no legitimate State of Palestine. And if there is a "State of Palestine," then it has boundaries. But they are not the territorial boundaries with the demarcations it had during the former British Mandate. The State of Israel may be in territory formerly known as Palestine, but it is a sovereignty unto itself and not subject to any claim by the Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R

Time will ultimately tell R,thanks for your excellent prose....Unlike those wretches Doc and Kondope.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

Well, let's see, the question was, "Is Israel like South Africa?"

In the OP, the definition of apartheid as defined in some 'conference' is trotted out and the OP makes the very lame case that what the Israeli's are doing to the Palestinians is in the same vein as what the whites did to the blacks in South Africa.

Jerry Lewis? Jew. Sammy Davis Jr? Jew. Leonard Nimoy? Jew. Adam Sandler? Jew. Drake? Jew. And how many Jews in Ethiopia (black) where they say the Ark of the Covenant has been resting inside a temple for the last 3,000 years? Last count, about 1 Million.

The last gasp of trying to point a boney finger at someone and label them as "EVIL!" is to try and also label them as RACIST! Thus the completely bankrupt exercise in trying to equate the state of Israel with the South African regime.

This exercise is a complete and total failure. I'm embarrassed FOR the Op and remind everyone, that if the Palestinians simply gave up their weapons, publicly stated that Israel has the RIGHT TO EXIST, and sat down in earnest with the Israeli government, they could have an internationally recognized state of Palestine in less than 6 months.

But of course they won't. I mean it's so important that the Palestinians try to keep their space program going. Launching hundred of rockets, with a goal to get to the moon, but they always unfortunately fall into Israeli villages and blow up women and children. And of course, the Palestinian Olympic sport of seeing how many Israeli border guards you can blow up by strapping an explosive vest to 8 year old children. And what about that unique sport of executing women and children on deserted Israeli streets in the middle of the night? Yeah, that is MUCH more important that seeking a peaceful, SANE solution...

 

[Coyote]

Thread has been cleaned of litter and spitballs (17 posts guys in just one night!). Hopefully, folks have cooled off a little now and can remember that IP is a Zone 2 forum, some insults are ok but you must provide content that addresses the discussion.

We are serious about maintaining a civil debate here and further violations will be met with creativity and the virtual equivalent of sitting in a chair for a time out and no TV.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I believe you are mistaken. I have explained it several times.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Of course not, and you don't see themselves as terrorist either. It doesn't make your interpretation true.

(OBSERVATION)

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Most Respectfully,
R

You are a hoot, Rocco.

The Occupation Force (Israel) and the State of Israel are "governing authorities."

Calling an occupation an authority.

BTW, you have never explained how Hamas fits the definition of international terrorists.

(COMMENT)

In some cases, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

If Israel, as the Occupying Power, is not an authority, then ---- of course, it cannot be held to any standard under the Geneva Convention. It is either an authority, responsible for certain actions and conditions, or it is not. You cannot claim both..​

I think you are misusing terms. You classify some Palestinians as insurgents

in·sur·gent [in súrjənt]
n (plural in·sur·gents)
1. rebel: somebody who rebels against authority or leadership, especially somebody who belongs to a group involved in an uprising
2. political rebel: a member of a political party who rebels against the party leaders or policies

It appears that insurgents are opposed to their own government and policies. I don't see where this would apply to a foreign military occupation.

Second, I've copied this section of General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXXV) many times, where Palestine must "refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines." When Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cross a demarcation line to conduct Article 13 Jihadist activities (Covenant) or Article Article 9 Feday'een Activities (Charter), they move from the realm of domestic terrorism to international terrorism.​

Resolution 2625 does not mention Palestine.

The armistice lines (that are specifically not to be political or territorial boundaries) run through Palestine. Please explain how the Palestinians can violate a line that is Palestine on both sides.

You are arguing the border issue, and it doesn't hold water. It is subterfuge to try and claim some justification as to why a Palestinian Organizations, known to hijack aircraft, conduct piracy on the his seas, perform suicide bombings, and initiate indiscriminate ambush and rocket attacks, should not be considered terrorists.

Either the State of Palestine is a "State" as declared by the PLO in 1988, with the Armistice Lines as demarcation; --- OR --- there is no legitimate State of Palestine. And if there is a "State of Palestine," then it has boundaries. But they are not the territorial boundaries with the demarcations it had during the former British Mandate. The State of Israel may be in territory formerly known as Palestine, but it is a sovereignty unto itself and not subject to any claim by the Palestinian.

Bot of these are complicated issues. If you would like to discuss them, post them as separate items.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

Tinny...

Do you have a map of the boundaries of a Palestinian State, that you and your brethren perceive as minimally acceptable with respect to land-mass controlled by the Palestinians, in order to secure permanent peace with the Jews of the region?

 

[toastman]

I have typed in 'Current Palestine Borders' on google and can't fine anything.
I found Israels current borders quite easily however. Weird...I learned through Tinnie that Israel doesnt have any borders

 

[Kondor3]

I have typed in 'Current Palestine Borders' on google and can't fine anything.
I found Israels current borders quite easily however. Weird...I learned through Tinnie that Israel doesnt have any borders

Yeah...

But it would be a big help to the rest of the audience who follows some of these discussions if Tinny... one of the more prolific pro-Palestinian advocates around here... would supply the appropriate visual aid to discussion, and show us his idea of what the borders of Palestine must look like, in order for the Jews of the region to have permanent peace.

Words are one thing... cut-and-dry... but images are quite another; much easier for the human mind to grasp; for clarification's sake.

I'm sure that Tinny has in-mind, any of several maps of HIS (and the Palestinians) vision of Palestine, in its final configuration; the minimum that they would be happy with; the minimum required by them, to make peace with the Jews of the region.

So, it's just a matter of Tinny favoring us with his (and the Palestinian's) vision, as an aid to discussion.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I have typed in 'Current Palestine Borders' on google and can't fine anything.
I found Israels current borders quite easily however. Weird...I learned through Tinnie that Israel doesnt have any borders

Yeah...

But it would be a big help to the rest of the audience who follows some of these discussions if Tinny... one of the more prolific pro-Palestinian advocates around here... would supply the appropriate visual aid to discussion, and show us his idea of what the borders of Palestine must look like, in order for the Jews of the region to have permanent peace.

Words are one thing... cut-and-dry... but images are quite another; much easier for the human mind to grasp; for clarification's sake.

I'm sure that Tinny has in-mind, any of several maps of HIS (and the Palestinians) vision of Palestine, in its final configuration; the minimum that they would be happy with; the minimum required by them, to make peace with the Jews of the region.

So, it's just a matter of Tinny favoring us with his (and the Palestinian's) vision, as an aid to discussion.

His map would include all of what is now called Israel, together with the West Bank and Gaza.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have typed in 'Current Palestine Borders' on google and can't fine anything.
I found Israels current borders quite easily however. Weird...I learned through Tinnie that Israel doesnt have any borders

Yeah...

But it would be a big help to the rest of the audience who follows some of these discussions if Tinny... one of the more prolific pro-Palestinian advocates around here... would supply the appropriate visual aid to discussion, and show us his idea of what the borders of Palestine must look like, in order for the Jews of the region to have permanent peace.

Words are one thing... cut-and-dry... but images are quite another; much easier for the human mind to grasp; for clarification's sake.

I'm sure that Tinny has in-mind, any of several maps of HIS (and the Palestinians) vision of Palestine, in its final configuration; the minimum that they would be happy with; the minimum required by them, to make peace with the Jews of the region.

So, it's just a matter of Tinny favoring us with his (and the Palestinian's) vision, as an aid to discussion.

His map would include all of what is now called Israel, together with the West Bank and Gaza.

I have always said that everything inside Israel's borders goes to Israel and everything inside Palestine's borders goes to Palestine.

Problem solved.

 

[toastman]

Yeah...

But it would be a big help to the rest of the audience who follows some of these discussions if Tinny... one of the more prolific pro-Palestinian advocates around here... would supply the appropriate visual aid to discussion, and show us his idea of what the borders of Palestine must look like, in order for the Jews of the region to have permanent peace.

Words are one thing... cut-and-dry... but images are quite another; much easier for the human mind to grasp; for clarification's sake.

I'm sure that Tinny has in-mind, any of several maps of HIS (and the Palestinians) vision of Palestine, in its final configuration; the minimum that they would be happy with; the minimum required by them, to make peace with the Jews of the region.

So, it's just a matter of Tinny favoring us with his (and the Palestinian's) vision, as an aid to discussion.

His map would include all of what is now called Israel, together with the West Bank and Gaza.

I have always said that everything inside Israel's borders goes to Israel and everything inside Palestine's borders goes to Palestine.

Problem solved.

Take a look at this map. Everything that is white is ISRAEL. This is not up for debate. no matter how hard you try, it will not change the fact. No matter how hateful you are towards Israel, it will not change.
So, if the Palestinians want any piece of that land, they would have to do so by conventional warfare. Until then, nothing will change in the sense that Israeli land that is clearly marked on this map is ISRAEL'S LAND.

DEAL WITH IT

 

[Kondor3]

Yeah...

But it would be a big help to the rest of the audience who follows some of these discussions if Tinny... one of the more prolific pro-Palestinian advocates around here... would supply the appropriate visual aid to discussion, and show us his idea of what the borders of Palestine must look like, in order for the Jews of the region to have permanent peace.

Words are one thing... cut-and-dry... but images are quite another; much easier for the human mind to grasp; for clarification's sake.

I'm sure that Tinny has in-mind, any of several maps of HIS (and the Palestinians) vision of Palestine, in its final configuration; the minimum that they would be happy with; the minimum required by them, to make peace with the Jews of the region.

So, it's just a matter of Tinny favoring us with his (and the Palestinian's) vision, as an aid to discussion.

His map would include all of what is now called Israel, together with the West Bank and Gaza.

I have always said that everything inside Israel's borders goes to Israel and everything inside Palestine's borders goes to Palestine.

Problem solved.

No, Tinny, don't do it with words...

Do it with imagery...

Please...

Show us where you (the Palestinians) consider Israel's borders to be...

Show us where you (the Palestinians) consider Palestine's borders to be...

Borders guaranteed to make peace with the Jews of the Region...

There are plenty of maps handy...

Please favor us with imagery, rather than words, to clarify those words...

Thank you...

 

[toastman]

He's going to bring up some documents from 1922, I just know it

 

[Kondor3]

He's going to bring up some documents from 1922, I just know it

That's OK... just so long as we get an honest and understandable 'visual' of his (their) position on the matter, as a point of departure...

Given past pronouncements about 'borders' and 'no borders' and retrograde understandings...

It's absolutely critical to have clarification of those words...

Which, by itself, might very well prove to be a 'first'...

Don't DESCRIBE the vision, because words can be re-interpreted and re-spun at any time...

SHOW US with the absolute precision of imagery...

 

[Kondor3]

Here, Tinny, let me help you to get started...

Is THIS the sort of map that you (the Palestinians) have in mind?

 

[georgephillip]

"...free and fair elections for all Semites living under Jewish laws between the River and the sea..."

You should have thought of that in 1948.

Or any time, prior to the 1967 War, before "you" proved yourselves forevermore untrustworthy and collectively insane, and forced the Israelis to harden their hearts, in order to survive.

Too late now.

Forty-six years too late.

Hell, the Palestinians aren't even Israeli citizens... by their own poor choice.

And now, with their tails between their legs, and having had their raggedy asses kicked time and again, after stupidly suicide-bombing and rocketing Israel to no substantive avail, and with your land-pockets shrinking down to nothingness at the speed of light...

All of a sudden, you're soooooooo interested in becoming Good Citizens and getting The Vote?

In the Israelis' shoes, I'd be inclined to say: "No chance" .

Better luck in an Alternative Universe or another life.

No means no.

Next slide, please...

It's never too late

"SOME MONTHS before the outbreak of the Six-Day War, I (Uri Avnery) met a high-ranking member of the Egyptian regime. The meeting took place in Paris through the auspices of a mutual friend. Throughout the years, I have met many leaders of the different Arab states, exchanging opinions and trading ideas for a settlement. But this meeting was different.

"At the outset, I said to my new-found friend: 'Let's make a list of all possible solutions to the Israeli-Arab conflict. Let's analyze every solution in turn and see where we get.'

"Taking a pen, we wrote the following list on the paper cloth on our table in the Paris restaurant:

(A) Annihilation by war
(B) The destruction of Israel by political and economic isolation
(C) Status quo
(D) A Semitic federation.'"

Pax Semitica by Uri Avnery

 

[Hossfly]

He's going to bring up some documents from 1922, I just know it

I was gonna say that, killjoy!