Debate Now Is Liberalism Exhausted?

[candycorn]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals​

believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

What objective criteria is there to support the thesis that "more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative"?

 

[Derideo_Te]

It becomes dishonest when conservatism is accused of not caring about the poor.

And yet we see this evidence of conservatives actively not caring about the poor on a daily basis!

Kansas and Missouri consider welfare laws that stigmatize the poor - Chicago Tribune

 

[Derideo_Te]

But according to Goldberg, more Americans are rejecting that even if they haven't given up the self-identifying label of 'liberal'.

And we have hard statistical evidence to prove that Goldberg is wrong.

 

[Agit8r]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Statism is seen by many of any ideology as a means to the ends they hope for. However, ideologies are almost always about the ends, rather than the means.

Take a couple of our founding fathers for instance. It is beyond question that the ends that the Federalists aimed for were conservative ends:

Restraining the power of the "mob"

Having an economy based on vast accumulations of capital, where prosperity was expected to trickle down to the common people.

Having a well ordered and pious society, revolving around a social hierarchy.

On the other hand, it is equally beyond question that the bulk of their adversaries were in favor of liberal ends.

Political equality

A more equal distribution of wealth

"the total separation of the Church from the State"

Despite this, the means they favored to achieve these ends was somewhat different than "conservative" and "liberal" parties do today.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Logical fallacy!

You made no valid connection between liberalism and statism.

 

[Foxfyre]

It becomes dishonest when conservatism is accused of not caring about the poor.

And yet we see this evidence of conservatives actively not caring about the poor on a daily basis!

Kansas and Missouri consider welfare laws that stigmatize the poor - Chicago Tribune

The thread topic is not what Kansas and Missouri are considering. I can't access the article because I am not registered so have no idea what it says, but I'm guessing that whatever legislation is proposed neither identifies the proposers as conservative nor suggests that conservatism stigmatizes the poor.

If conservatives did not care about the poor, it would not be mostly conservatives working hands on with the poor here and all over the world. Conservatives would not head great institutions devoted to helping those in need, and conservatives would not be more personally generous which study after study shows that they are.

So your comment is off topic and non sequitur and is a pure straw man to divert from the topic of whether liberalism is falling out of favor with Americans.

 

[Foxfyre]

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Logical fallacy!

You made no valid connection between liberalism and statism.

I sure as hell did. Read the definitions again.

 

[Coyote]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

I like the definitions of liberals and conservatives you give - I think that works well to me. But "statism" as you define it - seems to me to be an extreme of the liberal spectrum where as anarchy (individualism trumps state) would be an extreme of the conservative spectrum.

 

[Foxfyre]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Statism is seen by many of any ideology as a means to the ends they hope for. However, ideologies are almost always about the ends, rather than the means.

Take a couple of our founding fathers for instance. It is beyond question that the ends that the Federalists aimed for were conservative ends:

Restraining the power of the "mob"

Having an economy based on vast accumulations of capital, where prosperity was expected to trickle down to the common people.

Having a well ordered and pious society, revolving around a social hierarchy.

On the other hand, it is equally beyond question that the bulk of their adversaries were in favor of liberal ends.

Political equality

A more equal distribution of wealth

"the total separation of the Church from the State"

Despite this, the means they favored to achieve these ends was somewhat different than "conservative" and "liberal" parties do today.

We are not discussing political parties. The thread rules explictly put political parties off the table for discussion. It has already been argued that the political party a person identifies with is not absolute evidence that they are more conservative or more liberal.

But it is true that the Founders strongly promoted what we currently define as conservative principles. And the definition of conservatism as shown in my post #439 very accurately describes a lot of their core philosophy.

I deeply hope more and more people are relearning that philosophy and recognizing the virtues, including concern for the poor, that are part of it.

 

[Foxfyre]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

I like the definitions of liberals and conservatives you give - I think that works well to me. But "statism" as you define it - seems to me to be an extreme of the liberal spectrum where as anarchy (individualism trumps state) would be an extreme of the conservative spectrum.

It is true that extreme statism is the opposite of anarchy. But you can see by those definitions they are not defining the extreme. They are defining statism as the concept which is the belief and practice that a strong central government should be given power to order what the rules and basis for the economy and the social order will be.

Which is exactly the way liberalism is described in that same post.

Our central government has been very liberal and has promoted that philosophy for a very long time now regardless of which political party has been in power. And I think Goldberg's thesis suggests people are now rejecting it as it has not delivered as promised and has created more problems than it solved. So if more people are rejecting statism, rejecting liberalism, then Goldberg is right whether or not they are consciously embracing conservatism as an alternative.

 

[Agit8r]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Statism is seen by many of any ideology as a means to the ends they hope for. However, ideologies are almost always about the ends, rather than the means.

Take a couple of our founding fathers for instance. It is beyond question that the ends that the Federalists aimed for were conservative ends:

Restraining the power of the "mob"

Having an economy based on vast accumulations of capital, where prosperity was expected to trickle down to the common people.

Having a well ordered and pious society, revolving around a social hierarchy.

On the other hand, it is equally beyond question that the bulk of their adversaries were in favor of liberal ends.

Political equality

A more equal distribution of wealth

"the total separation of the Church from the State"

Despite this, the means they favored to achieve these ends was somewhat different than "conservative" and "liberal" parties do today.

We are not discussing political parties. The thread rules explictly put political parties off the table for discussion. It has already been argued that the political party a person identifies with is not absolute evidence that they are more conservative or more liberal.

But it is true that the Founders strongly promoted what we currently define as conservative principles. And the definition of conservatism as shown in my post #439 very accurately describes a lot of their core philosophy.

I deeply hope more and more people are relearning that philosophy and recognizing the virtues, including concern for the poor, that are part of it.

Are you going to deny that desired ends are what defines an ideology, rather than accepted means? If so, you are ignoring all recent history as well.

 

[Coyote]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

I like the definitions of liberals and conservatives you give - I think that works well to me. But "statism" as you define it - seems to me to be an extreme of the liberal spectrum where as anarchy (individualism trumps state) would be an extreme of the conservative spectrum.

It is true that extreme statism is the opposite of anarchy. But you can see by those definitions they are not defining the extreme. They are defining statism as the concept which is the belief and practice that a strong central government should be given power to order what the rules and basis for the economy and the social order will be.

Which is exactly the way liberalism is described in that same post.

No, I disagree.

...believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights...

vs

political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs

It's a difference in degree.

Compare conservatism and anarchy:


Meriam-Webster: Anarchism: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

Are they the same? Or, is the difference one of degree?

Liberals believe in more state involvement then conservatives but that does not necessarily mean "substantial centralized control". Even conservatives believe in a certain amount of government control - they just choose different areas to use it - inserting the state into private decisions on abortion and marriage.

 

[Agit8r]

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

​

​

Then conservatism is exhausted, because the bulk of politicians and average joes who call themselves conservative are eager to use state power to accomplish their ends:

Prohibition of herbs they find unsavory

Banning abortion

Police immunity from any laws

Unprovoked warfare

You talk to the average person who calls themselves conservative, and they will agree with one or more of these. And these are FAR closer to any classical definition of tyranny than the regulation of light bulbs is

 

[candycorn]

Did she ever answer the question about what objective data is being used to state that people are embracing conservatism?

 

[Derideo_Te]

It becomes dishonest when conservatism is accused of not caring about the poor.

And yet we see this evidence of conservatives actively not caring about the poor on a daily basis!

Kansas and Missouri consider welfare laws that stigmatize the poor - Chicago Tribune

The thread topic is not what Kansas and Missouri are considering. I can't access the article because I am not registered so have no idea what it says, but I'm guessing that whatever legislation is proposed neither identifies the proposers as conservative nor suggests that conservatism stigmatizes the poor.

If conservatives did not care about the poor, it would not be mostly conservatives working hands on with the poor here and all over the world. Conservatives would not head great institutions devoted to helping those in need, and conservatives would not be more personally generous which study after study shows that they are.

So your comment is off topic and non sequitur and is a pure straw man to divert from the topic of whether liberalism is falling out of favor with Americans.

Missouri Senate Overrides Veto Of Welfare Restrictions Bill

Kansas To Impose Unprecedented Restriction On Welfare Recipients ThinkProgress

 

[Derideo_Te]

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

Logical fallacy!

You made no valid connection between liberalism and statism.

I sure as hell did. Read the definitions again.

Both definitions are for statism only. Neither mentions liberalism.

Ergo there is no valid connection.

 

[Derideo_Te]

It is true that extreme statism is the opposite of anarchy. But you can see by those definitions they are not defining the extreme. They are defining statism as the concept which is the belief and practice that a strong central government should be given power to order what the rules and basis for the economy and the social order will be.

Which is exactly the way liberalism is described in that same post.

No, it isn't!

 

[Derideo_Te]

Did she ever answer the question about what objective data is being used to state that people are embracing conservatism?

Nope!

 

[Spare_change]

The topic is not abortion or any other social issue or anybody's particular position on it.

But Jarhead is right. There will always be people with positions that are so far out of the mainstream that they cannot be taken seriously and that is true of the left/liberals and right/conservatives. Those individuals are not representative of the whole group and cannot be used to define the whole group.

To say that liberalism mostly promotes and defends the welfare state as the moral position is a fair statement and can be defended.

To say that conservativism mostly promotes and defends limited government and economic policies that result in opportunity and prosperity for all as the moral position is a fair statement and can be defended.

It becomes dishonest when liberalism is accused of being opposed to opportunity and prosperity.

It becomes dishonest when conservatism is accused of not caring about the poor.

What defines both groups is the difference in how we go about achieving prosperity and helping the poor and disadvantaged. Liberalism looks to government initiative to do that. Conservatism looks to private initiative to do that. And both see that the other as producing unacceptable results and causing more harm than good.

What Goldberg is arguing is that more people are beginning to reject liberalism that they don't see as delivering as advertised. Going issue by issue, value by value, more people will choose the conservative point of view overall than will choose the liberal one regardless of how they self identify themselves.

BS.

Conservatives would want to get rid of FEMA. Its not in the constitution.
Liberals would want to keep FEMA. It's done wonders in helping towns and regions recover. Yes they have had their share of boondoggles.

Was anyone at CPAC talking about getting rid of FEMA? No.

Liberalism wins.

Conservatives would want to get rid of the FDIC. It's not in the constitution.
Liberal would want to keep the FDIC. So a nefarious bank employee or robber wouldn't wipe out your life savings.

Any conservatives at CPAC talking about getting rid of the FDIC? No.

Liberalism wins.

The victories of liberalism are all around and are self evident in everything from knowing your money is safe in the bank to knowing that there will be help on the way if an earthquake or massive storm hits your community to knowing your drinking water is safe to knowing you have the right to privacy if you're of the female gender.

Conservatives have lost ground every year (they opposed all of the above or at least the government having a hand in it) and will continue to do so.

Hmmmm .... life is like a box of chocolates ...

 

[Foxfyre]

An interested watcher (not participant) on this thread just referred me to the following:

And I do believe that Goldberg is right that more people are embracing the beliefs and values of the conservative these days. Are enough embracing them to elect true conservatives to government? I doubt it. But I think the trend is going in that direction.

Liberals
believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need. Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

NOTE: The terms “left” and “right” define opposite ends of the political spectrum. In the United States, liberals are referred to as the left or left-wing and conservatives are referred to as the right or right-wing. . . .
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs​

Free dictionary definition of Statism:
The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.


Oxford dictionary definition of Statism:
political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

So obviously, in modern American vernacular, liberals are statists and/or statists are liberals. And that makes them synonymous.

I like the definitions of liberals and conservatives you give - I think that works well to me. But "statism" as you define it - seems to me to be an extreme of the liberal spectrum where as anarchy (individualism trumps state) would be an extreme of the conservative spectrum.

It is true that extreme statism is the opposite of anarchy. But you can see by those definitions they are not defining the extreme. They are defining statism as the concept which is the belief and practice that a strong central government should be given power to order what the rules and basis for the economy and the social order will be.

Which is exactly the way liberalism is described in that same post.

No, I disagree.

...believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights...

vs

political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs

It's a difference in degree.

Compare conservatism and anarchy:


Meriam-Webster: Anarchism: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

Are they the same? Or, is the difference one of degree?

Liberals believe in more state involvement then conservatives but that does not necessarily mean "substantial centralized control". Even conservatives believe in a certain amount of government control - they just choose different areas to use it - inserting the state into private decisions on abortion and marriage.

When is the last time you saw a liberal say the federal government should butt out of this or that social program? That the people should work that out and government should stay out of it? That it is okay for states to have the ability to pass their own laws about social matters rather than make it a federal affair? Who don't cheer if this or that court strikes down the people's ability to implement their own beliefs and value that go contrary to the liberal beliefs and values?

It is the statist view that morality and equality and justice for all and programs that help people must be uniform everywhere and the only way that can be done is via federal mandates and it is wrong to allow a state or a group of people to reject that. The federal government must have the power and authority to intervene in most social concerns.

It doesn't have to be extreme. It is just the difference between how conservatives and liberals believe that the best common good is accomplished.

I think more people are going with the conservative ideas on that these days even if they don't know that such ideas fit under the conservative label.