Debate Now Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?

[Derideo_Te]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

Libertarianism is fundamentally American...

Really?

Greed and selfishness is fundamentally American?

Explain why the Founding Fathers didn't include that in the Constitution?

I suppose in your mind the Founding Fathers stood for the welfare/warfare/police state we have today.

The FF most certainly embraced the concepts of law and order, defense and general welfare in the Constitution.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

Libertarianism is fundamentally American...

Really?

Greed and selfishness is fundamentally American?

Explain why the Founding Fathers didn't include that in the Constitution?

I suppose in your mind the Founding Fathers stood for the welfare/warfare/police state we have today.

Given the fact the United States isn't a “welfare/warfare/police state,” whatever that's suppose to mean, this question makes no sense. It's more inane hyperbolic idiocy.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

Libertarianism is fundamentally American...

Really?

Greed and selfishness is fundamentally American?

Explain why the Founding Fathers didn't include that in the Constitution?

I suppose in your mind the Founding Fathers stood for the welfare/warfare/police state we have today.

The FF most certainly embraced the concepts of law and order, defense and general welfare in the Constitution.

And the fact that the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, as determined by the Supreme Court.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I do not see libertarians advocating a complete lack of government.

What they are advocating for is a 100% removal of all social services.

That is not the same thing....

It is effectively the same thing.

Sorry,

But since the government isn't the only avenue you can advocate through.....

It most certainly is not the same thing.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

DERIDEO_TE SAID:

'Perhaps the biggest distinction that I see is the stark difference between the social contract of We the People being equal and the Libertarian Utopian concept of "I, the Individual" being accountable to no one but himself.[“]'

For libertarians this would result in an 'equilibrium of selfishness,' or 'equality through selfishness' – where everyone focusing solely on himself, doing what's best for himself, will render everyone prosperous and self-sufficient.

Again, this is unfounded nonsense – and even if one were to concede this had some validity during the 18th and 19th Centuries, libertarian dogma has clearly been devoid of merit for well over 100 years.

Indeed, by the second quarter of the 20th Century the courts recognized the radical change in the nature of the American economy, the significant change in the relationship between employer and employee, where the libertarian socioeconomic paradigm had become an unworkable anachronism, as Federal regulatory policy is clearly necessary and proper:

“Congress, having by the present Act adopted the policy of excluding from interstate commerce all goods produced for that commerce which do not conform to the specified labor standards, it may choose the means reasonably adapted to the attainment of the permitted end, even though they involve control of intrastate activities. P. 121.

Independently of the prohibition of shipment or transportation of the proscribed goods, the provision of the Act for the suppression of their production for interstate commerce is within the commerce power. P. 122.

The Tenth Amendment is not a limitation upon the authority of the National Government to resort to all means for the exercise of a granted power which are appropriate and plainly adapted to the permitted end. P. 123.”

United States v. Darby LII Legal Information Institute

I don't understand what is being argued here.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

Libertarianism is fundamentally American...

Really?

Greed and selfishness is fundamentally American?

Explain why the Founding Fathers didn't include that in the Constitution?

I suppose in your mind the Founding Fathers stood for the welfare/warfare/police state we have today.

The FF most certainly embraced the concepts of law and order, defense and general welfare in the Constitution.

And the fact that the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, as determined by the Supreme Court.

That is true.

And if Libertarians took control, the Constitution would take on a new context.

When the figured out the first one was not working, they did it again.

Not sure what you are referring to here. Care to elucidate?

They created the Articles of Confederation.....

Then scrapped it.

Hardly the same thing at all.

I am becoming somewhat bored with your willingness to determine what does and what does not apply with no argument.

The Federalist Papers were written because there were some who wanted to dissolve THE STANDING GOVERNMENT IN FAVOR OF A MORE WORKABLE FORM (as per their desires)....the issue was not universally perceived by all to be an issue.

It certainly was not a revolution. But the AofC were scrapped (in other words the existing compact was scrapped...albeit necessarily). That is a fact.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

What is un-American about that.

I don't agree with removing all social services, but I don't see how you can classify libertarians as un-American.

I asked if Libertarianism is un-American. Kindly don't twist my words.

The goals of the Constitution include one that states that We the People want to promote the General Welfare of the people. Libertarianism is the opposite of that. It promotes greed and selfishness instead of a "more perfect union". That is why Libertarianism is un-American IMO.

You'll need to argue that the General Welfare clause applies to all aspects of our lives. Which it didn't for a couple of centuries and still doesn't.

As was explained in Federalist #45....it only gives to Congress the powers needed to execute their limited Scope of work.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.

And progressivism is a hell on Earth for the serfs and a wonderful life for the dear leaders. Extremism of any sort is bad. That's the point.

This is a lie, nothing more than hyperbolic nonsense.

Because you said so ?

And it is fascinating that you can accuse anyone of hyperbole when you come to a thread and make such definitive pronouncements absent any kind of support.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

So what ?

I am still not seeing how this is un-American.

Let's also get clear that if Social Services were removed....people would not starve to death.

Really?

1 in 7 people worldwide do not have enough to eat each and every day.

More Than 1 Billion People Are Hungry in the World Foreign Policy

Explain exactly how people earning minimum wages are going to provide themselves with food and shelter for themselves and their families without foodstamps and housing subsidies.

This is no longer a discussion. It has taken on the tone of a Chris Matthews moderated yell-fest.

Point #1: 1 in 7 worldwide...we are talking about the United States. Your original statement has to do with America or being unAmerican.

Point #2: You seem to imply that foodstamps and housing subsidies are a remedy. But people are still hungry (unless you are going to make the claim that no one in the U.S. is part of that 1 in 7), so maybe they are not such a remedy.

Point #3: Your statement also implies that food stamps and housing subsidies are the only way people can be protected from hunger. There are certainly other avenues for caring for the needs of the poor. They have been effectively utilized for centuries. While I don't agree on the removal of social services, I, in no way, accept your attack on libertarians (many of whom I know and respect).

But I am through with this thread.

It is no longer a discussion but rather has become another pathetic game of pin the tail on the opposition.

There are no metrics and the targets keep moving.

In your own mind, you've determined what is un-American. And clearly demonstrated that your definition of un-American is anyone who does not feel the way that you do.

I would more prone to agree with anyone who would argue that your attitude is, by far, more un-American than anything the Libertarians have put forth.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I do not see libertarians advocating a complete lack of government.

What they are advocating for is a 100% removal of all social services.

That is not the same thing....

It is effectively the same thing.

Sorry,

But since the government isn't the only avenue you can advocate through.....

It most certainly is not the same thing.

Advocacy is not the issue here. Libertarians wanting to harm America by the elimination 100% of all social services is the issue.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Libertarianism is fundamentally American...

Really?

Greed and selfishness is fundamentally American?

Explain why the Founding Fathers didn't include that in the Constitution?

I suppose in your mind the Founding Fathers stood for the welfare/warfare/police state we have today.

The FF most certainly embraced the concepts of law and order, defense and general welfare in the Constitution.

And the fact that the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law, as determined by the Supreme Court.

That is true.

And if Libertarians took control, the Constitution would take on a new context.

When the figured out the first one was not working, they did it again.

Not sure what you are referring to here. Care to elucidate?

They created the Articles of Confederation.....

Then scrapped it.

Hardly the same thing at all.

I am becoming somewhat bored with your willingness to determine what does and what does not apply with no argument.

The Federalist Papers were written because there were some who wanted to dissolve THE STANDING GOVERNMENT IN FAVOR OF A MORE WORKABLE FORM (as per their desires)....the issue was not universally perceived by all to be an issue.

It certainly was not a revolution. But the AofC were scrapped (in other words the existing compact was scrapped...albeit necessarily). That is a fact.

Not arguing that the AofC were scrapped as unworkable.

Libertarians are advocating tearing down the current working Constitution and replacing it with something far LESS VIABLE than the AofC.

That is a fact.

PS Your boredom is not my problem since you are not paying me to entertain you.

 

[Derideo_Te]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

What is un-American about that.

I don't agree with removing all social services, but I don't see how you can classify libertarians as un-American.

I asked if Libertarianism is un-American. Kindly don't twist my words.

The goals of the Constitution include one that states that We the People want to promote the General Welfare of the people. Libertarianism is the opposite of that. It promotes greed and selfishness instead of a "more perfect union". That is why Libertarianism is un-American IMO.

You'll need to argue that the General Welfare clause applies to all aspects of our lives. Which it didn't for a couple of centuries and still doesn't.

As was explained in Federalist #45....it only gives to Congress the powers needed to execute their limited Scope of work.

Unless something has radically changed since I last read the Constitution but the Federalist Papers are not part of the Law of the Land.

The Constitution was originally written with the full knowledge that it would be changed in the future as needs of We the People and the government Of the people and For the people evolved. The FF specifically built in a means to change the Constitution itself via Amendments and a system of checks and balances between the 3 branches of government to ensure that all changes would meet the standard of Constitutionality.

The General Welfare clause as it pertains today and all laws that fall under it are fully Constitutional.

Limitations that existed in the past applied to muzzle loading muskets. Today we have weapons that far exceed that capacity. Are you advocating that only muskets should be allowed under the 2nd Amendment?

 

[Derideo_Te]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

So what ?

I am still not seeing how this is un-American.

Let's also get clear that if Social Services were removed....people would not starve to death.

Really?

1 in 7 people worldwide do not have enough to eat each and every day.

More Than 1 Billion People Are Hungry in the World Foreign Policy

Explain exactly how people earning minimum wages are going to provide themselves with food and shelter for themselves and their families without foodstamps and housing subsidies.

This is no longer a discussion. It has taken on the tone of a Chris Matthews moderated yell-fest.

Point #1: 1 in 7 worldwide...we are talking about the United States. Your original statement has to do with America or being unAmerican.

Point #2: You seem to imply that foodstamps and housing subsidies are a remedy. But people are still hungry (unless you are going to make the claim that no one in the U.S. is part of that 1 in 7), so maybe they are not such a remedy.

Point #3: Your statement also implies that food stamps and housing subsidies are the only way people can be protected from hunger. There are certainly other avenues for caring for the needs of the poor. They have been effectively utilized for centuries. While I don't agree on the removal of social services, I, in no way, accept your attack on libertarians (many of whom I know and respect).

But I am through with this thread.

It is no longer a discussion but rather has become another pathetic game of pin the tail on the opposition.

There are no metrics and the targets keep moving.

In your own mind, you've determined what is un-American. And clearly demonstrated that your definition of un-American is anyone who does not feel the way that you do.

I would more prone to agree with anyone who would argue that your attitude is, by far, more un-American than anything the Libertarians have put forth.

Resorting to personal attacks because you cannot refute any of the facts in the links provided?

The Libertarian Party's own website clearly stipulates that it will eliminate all social programs that are essential for providing welfare and income to the poor and elderly.

That is irrefutable and if the Libertarians were to gain power and enact those policies there is no doubt that many Americans would die as a result just as tens of thousands died every year for lack of affordable healthcare prior to the ACA.

Libertarians need to explain how it is not un-American to let people die for lack of food, shelter and healthcare in the wealthiest nation in the world.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

The final claim, in it's entirety is beyond response.

If a majority of the country were to vote libertarian....nobody really knows what would happen.

 

[dblack]

Libertarians need to explain how it is not un-American to let people die for lack of food, shelter and healthcare in the wealthiest nation in the world.

I think it is un-American, if by that you mean undesirable and something we should do something about.

So, how about you? How many people did you let die today? Why?

 

[Agit8r]

A "libertarian" economic system has only been tried under dictatorship. I think that tells the whole story right there.

Chicago Boys - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

http://www.ub.edu/graap/bel_Italy_fascist.pdf

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Libertarians need to explain how it is not un-American to let people die for lack of food, shelter and healthcare in the wealthiest nation in the world.

I think it is un-American, if by that you mean undesirable and something we should do something about.

So, how about you? How many people did you let die today? Why?

Yes, by that same logic all of us are unamerican.

I still can't find where libertarians have ever allowed this to happen.

Removing social services does not equate to people dying.

 

[Dot Com]

Libertarianism is not only against the Constitution, it is unworkable in the real world. When I think of countries practicing libertarianism, Somalia comes to mind or Honduras where the strong prey on the weak and there is little-to-no gov't.

One of our own USMB libertarians once opined that the doctrine of eminent domain was 'wrong,' that a railroad being built pursuant to the public interest should be 'forced' to 'go around' the property of a landowner who refused to sell his land to allow for the railroad's construction.

Can one imagine what America would be like if every railroad, interstate highway, and major roadway were compelled to 'go around' private property – that would indeed render us a third world Nation.

Such is the ridiculous extremism of most libertarians, where the Framers clearly authorized the doctrine of eminent domain in the Fifth Amendment.

agree completely.

 

[Dot Com]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

that is pretty much what would happen.

 

[dblack]

Libertarians need to explain how it is not un-American to let people die for lack of food, shelter and healthcare in the wealthiest nation in the world.

I think it is un-American, if by that you mean undesirable and something we should do something about.

So, how about you? How many people did you let die today? Why?

Yes, by that same logic all of us are unamerican.

I still can't find where libertarians have ever allowed this to happen.

Removing social services does not equate to people dying.

Exactly. I think it starts with equating society with government. The assumption seems to be that law enforcement is the only way society can express and act on its values.