Is the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery?

[Wry Catcher]

The Left has nothing to offer except poor attemps at class warfare; of course, no one is buying it
Believe me, if they could use the "race card" on this, they would. But then the Left is so desperate, they may try yet.

Charles Krauthammer

He himself, as we just heard, said you can’t reduce the deficit to the levels we need without raising revenues. Then he talks about the [tax break for] corporate jets, which he mentioned not once but six times.

I did the math on this. If you collect the corporate jet tax every year for the next 5,000 years, you will cover one year of the debt that Obama has run up. One year.

To put it another way, if you started collecting that tax at the time of John the Baptist and you collected it every year — first in shekels and now in dollars — you wouldn’t be halfway to covering one year of the amount of debt that Obama has run up.

As for the other one, he mentions again and again, the oil depreciation tax break — if you collect that one for 700 years, you won’t cover a year of Obama deficits.

And then here’s my favorite. I worked it out in the car on the way here. If you collect the corporate jets and the oil tax together — get all the bad guys and the fat cats at once — and you collect it for 100 years, it covers the amount of debt Obama added… in February!

And he pretends that he’s the serious adult at the table.​

As you can see the Left and Papa Obama's "math skills" are very poor.

It is not like the Left can run on Papa Obama's record
What give us 4 more years of this .....

By almost any measure you can name, the U.S. economy has gotten much worse since Papa Obama became president.
Of course it is pretty obvious by now that Papa Obama and the Left are completely clueless when it comes to free market economics.

One clue that your post is utter bullshit is that crusaderfrank found it helpful. Suggesting the Demorats are far left and seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole and the fact that an a a hit piece written by the very stange and uber-partisan Krauthammer is offered as evidence is weak indeed.

Why not offer a credible answer to the question at hand? If you disagree and believe Boehenr, McConnell, et al really want our economy to recover before the next general election offer some evidence.

What GOP efforts makes you believe they put country first? Name one and I'll consider they are not engaged in a concerted effort to keep average Americans in a state of fear.

A better clue that he is on the right track is that a tool like you chooses to criticize it.

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

 

[Neotrotsky]

This thread is about the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery. The current effort of the GOP is to focus on the debt ceiling, a strategy employed by the GOP leadership to extort consessons from Obama to benefit those they represent, big oil, big pharma, big farma and the insurance industry.



Daveboy and the other apologists for the GOP continue to deflect from the premise of this thread. That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

As opposed to the statist crony capitalism we have now, give me a break

Do Papa Obama's secret deals with Big Pharma count as part of the Progressive Socialist Utopia ?



If the Left had any economic successes under Papa Obama then they would
not have to push the phony "class struggle" mantra


By the way

Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

Quick comrades, ignore the "man behind the curtain"

We must raise taxes more to save this economy

 

[Neotrotsky]

One clue that your post is utter bullshit is that crusaderfrank found it helpful. Suggesting the Demorats are far left and seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole and the fact that an a a hit piece written by the very stange and uber-partisan Krauthammer is offered as evidence is weak indeed.

Why not offer a credible answer to the question at hand? If you disagree and believe Boehenr, McConnell, et al really want our economy to recover before the next general election offer some evidence.

What GOP efforts makes you believe they put country first? Name one and I'll consider they are not engaged in a concerted effort to keep average Americans in a state of fear.

A better clue that he is on the right track is that a tool like you chooses to criticize it.

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

Anything that Obama and the Left want
Do the opposite- since we know their's is not working


Speaking of
By the way

Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

If only the evil racist Republicans would let Papa Obama raise taxes

He must be right; considering that everything he has tried has failed

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The GOP won't allow another Failed Stimulus which according to Paul Krugman needs to be...$900 Billion, um no $2 Trillion, um no wait, er, $5 Trillion! Yes, $5.8 trillion in carefully target "Shovel Ready" (Laugh) projects, designed to replace bank ATM, airport kiosks, EZ pass Highway Lanes, with real life government employees. In fact Obama will give each American citizen use of a Government employee with an abacus and telephone to replace the cellular phone and personal computer.

Obama is a Clown and a Failure

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43682730
Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

 

[Neotrotsky]

That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

Suggesting the Demorats are...seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole...

The contradiction in these two posts will be left as an exercise for the student.

Take it easy on the Left Dave

When their dreams start to crash all around them, they tend to get a little more crazy.

They use to have such high hopes

 

[Wry Catcher]

This thread is about the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery. The current effort of the GOP is to focus on the debt ceiling, a strategy employed by the GOP leadership to extort consessons from Obama to benefit those they represent, big oil, big pharma, big farma and the insurance industry.



Daveboy and the other apologists for the GOP continue to deflect from the premise of this thread. That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

As opposed to the statist crony capitalism we have now, give me a break

Do Papa Obama's secret deals with Big Pharma count as part of the Progressive Socialist Utopia ?



If the Left had any economic successes under Papa Obama then they would
not have to push the phony "class struggle" mantra


By the way

Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

Quick comrades, ignore the "man behind the curtain"

We must raise taxes more to save this economy

We might have a serious debate on why Obama has failed to push a strong jobs agenda, but for the fact that daveboy and other Republicans (registered and fellow travelers) use distortions, lies, half-truths, and oft repeated cliches as a desperate attempt to breath life into a failed set of economic theories and the policies predicated on them.

What is telling is your use of the phrase, "statist crony capitalism" and applying that to the left. Either you hope to confuse others or are not informed enough to know that a good definition of Plutocracy might include that very description. And it is not a far cry from wondering if we are on track to take our Plutocracy to the next step, where Freedom and Security, usually thought of as dichotomies, are both surrendered to a new iteraton of corporatism.

Adding a Red Scare element to your post is par for the propaganda - accuse the other side of what you do. In this case accuse others of extremism.

 

[Neotrotsky]

This thread is about the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery. The current effort of the GOP is to focus on the debt ceiling, a strategy employed by the GOP leadership to extort consessons from Obama to benefit those they represent, big oil, big pharma, big farma and the insurance industry.



Daveboy and the other apologists for the GOP continue to deflect from the premise of this thread. That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

As opposed to the statist crony capitalism we have now, give me a break

Do Papa Obama's secret deals with Big Pharma count as part of the Progressive Socialist Utopia ?



If the Left had any economic successes under Papa Obama then they would
not have to push the phony "class struggle" mantra


By the way

Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

Quick comrades, ignore the "man behind the curtain"

We must raise taxes more to save this economy

We might have a serious debate on why Obama has failed to push a strong jobs agenda, but for the fact that daveboy and other Republicans (registered and fellow travelers) use distortions, lies, half-truths, and oft repeated cliches as a desperate attempt to breath life into a failed set of economic theories and the policies predicatee on them.

What is telling is your use of the phrase, "statist crony capitalism" and applying that to the left. Either you hope to confuse others or are not informed enough to know that a good definition of Plutocracy might include that very description. And it is not a far cry from wondering if we are on track to take our Plutocracy to the next step, where Freedom and Security, usually thought of has dichotomies, are both surrendered to a new iteraton of corporatism.

Adding a Red Scare element to your post is par for the propaganda - accuse the other side of what you do. In this case accuse others of extremism.

Policies from either party that unnecessarily increases the economics of scales up, forcing competition out and increasing the size of the remaining companies where lobbying efforts are the only way for them to protect their market share, does not a free market make...



Secret deals with gov't; PapaObama Care waivers dictated by some mysterious bureaucratic process - you are right
nothing statist or crony capitalist about that ....


Red scare?

Not at all, the biggest scare going today and rightly so is
the Left and their slow "bleeding" approach to some fabled socialist statist Utopia

Let's call it a "Pink Scare"
At least the communists were more honest and manned up to what they really wanted

 

[daveman]

That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

Suggesting the Demorats are...seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole...

The contradiction in these two posts will be left as an exercise for the student.

Take it easy on the Left Dave

When their dreams start to crash all around them, they tend to get a little more crazy.

They use to have such high hopes

Oh, the huge manatee!

 

[Liability]

One clue that your post is utter bullshit is that crusaderfrank found it helpful. Suggesting the Demorats are far left and seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole and the fact that an a a hit piece written by the very stange and uber-partisan Krauthammer is offered as evidence is weak indeed.

Why not offer a credible answer to the question at hand? If you disagree and believe Boehenr, McConnell, et al really want our economy to recover before the next general election offer some evidence.

What GOP efforts makes you believe they put country first? Name one and I'll consider they are not engaged in a concerted effort to keep average Americans in a state of fear.

A better clue that he is on the right track is that a tool like you chooses to criticize it.

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

Fly Catcher's monumental and endless dishonesty is well known. There's not much point in trying to have a real discussion with a dishonest piece of crap like him.

Still, on the off hope that he might someday find some small shred of integrity:

Roadmap for America's Future, Rep. Ryan.

Next?

 

[Wry Catcher]

As opposed to the statist crony capitalism we have now, give me a break

Do Papa Obama's secret deals with Big Pharma count as part of the Progressive Socialist Utopia ?



If the Left had any economic successes under Papa Obama then they would
not have to push the phony "class struggle" mantra


By the way

Jobs Picture Gets Even Worse as Rate Swells to 9.2%

Quick comrades, ignore the "man behind the curtain"

We must raise taxes more to save this economy

We might have a serious debate on why Obama has failed to push a strong jobs agenda, but for the fact that daveboy and other Republicans (registered and fellow travelers) use distortions, lies, half-truths, and oft repeated cliches as a desperate attempt to breath life into a failed set of economic theories and the policies predicatee on them.

What is telling is your use of the phrase, "statist crony capitalism" and applying that to the left. Either you hope to confuse others or are not informed enough to know that a good definition of Plutocracy might include that very description. And it is not a far cry from wondering if we are on track to take our Plutocracy to the next step, where Freedom and Security, usually thought of has dichotomies, are both surrendered to a new iteraton of corporatism.

Adding a Red Scare element to your post is par for the propaganda - accuse the other side of what you do. In this case accuse others of extremism.

Policies from either party that unnecessarily increases the economics of scales up, forcing competition out and increasing the size of the remaining companies where lobbying efforts are the only way for them to protect their market share, does not a free market make...



Secret deals with gov't - you are right
nothing statist or crony capitalist about that ....

In your first paragraph you seem to get it, to blame it on Obama or the left (and anyone who characterizes Obama as left is either ignorant or a propagandist) is disingenuous. It is a systemic problem and both parties are complicit.

No bid contracts, private armies and corporate influence way beyond lobbying (which has many benefits and is practiced by the left and right, non profits, local, state governments and special districts) are not the exclusive actions of Democrats or the left as you suggest.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled money is tantamount to free speech (CU v. FEC) any chance to prevent our becoming a full scale plutocracy has deminished. That is the type of bloodless coup of which I wrote. You may disagree and I hope to be wrong but I see this first decade of the 21st C as a great threat to the Republic, a Republic which Franklin long ago reportedly said was ours if we could keep it.

 

[daveman]

This thread is about the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery. The current effort of the GOP is to focus on the debt ceiling, a strategy employed by the GOP leadership to extort consessons from Obama to benefit those they represent, big oil, big pharma, big farma and the insurance industry.

No job bills have been discussed in the House of Representatives, they spend more time on vacation (recessed) and giving press conferences than working. Only 18 bills have been passed by the House and 15 of those named Federal Buildings.

Daveboy and the other apologists for the GOP continue to deflect from the premise of this thread. That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy.

Gobama!

That you're incapable of seeing the damage Obama and the Democrats are doing to the economy is meaningless. Once again, a leftist thinks his perceptions define reality. Reality, however, refuses to cooperate.

A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

Wow. It sounds like you need to put these dangerous conservatives into camps or something.

Shall I PM you my address?

That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy. A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

Suggesting the Demorats are...seeking class warfare is idiotic hyperbole...

The contradiction in these two posts will be left as an exercise for the student.

Pretending these two posts don't exist doesn't actually make it so, Wry.

 

[Liability]

We have created a MASSIVE, major and deadly-serious economic problem for the Republic.

We did this by spending tons of money we don't have and have no real prospect of acquiring.

The liberal Dumbocrap way out of the box is to essentially keep doing the very same thing that GOT us here in the first place.

The basic conservative (and to some extent the Republican) proposal to extricate us from this mess is to STOP doing what got us here.

Liberals cannot see their own insanity.

 

[Neotrotsky]

We might have a serious debate on why Obama has failed to push a strong jobs agenda, but for the fact that daveboy and other Republicans (registered and fellow travelers) use distortions, lies, half-truths, and oft repeated cliches as a desperate attempt to breath life into a failed set of economic theories and the policies predicatee on them.

What is telling is your use of the phrase, "statist crony capitalism" and applying that to the left. Either you hope to confuse others or are not informed enough to know that a good definition of Plutocracy might include that very description. And it is not a far cry from wondering if we are on track to take our Plutocracy to the next step, where Freedom and Security, usually thought of has dichotomies, are both surrendered to a new iteraton of corporatism.

Adding a Red Scare element to your post is par for the propaganda - accuse the other side of what you do. In this case accuse others of extremism.

Policies from either party that unnecessarily increases the economics of scales up, forcing competition out and increasing the size of the remaining companies where lobbying efforts are the only way for them to protect their market share, does not a free market make...



Secret deals with gov't - you are right
nothing statist or crony capitalist about that ....

In your first paragraph you seem to get it, to blame it on Obama or the left (and anyone who characterizes Obama as left is either ignorant or a propagandist) is disingenuous. It is a systemic problem and both parties are complicit.

No bid contracts, private armies and corporate influence way beyond lobbying (which has many benefits and is practiced by the left and right, non profits, local, state governments and special districts) are not the exclusive actions of Democrats or the left as you suggest.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled money is tantamount to free speech (CU v. FEC) any chance to prevent our becoming a full scale plutocracy has deminished. That is the type of bloodless coup of which I wrote. You may disagree and I hope to be wrong but I see this first decade of the 21st C as a great threat to the Republic, a Republic which Franklin long ago reportedly said was ours if we could keep it.

The SCOTUS was right.
The problem is the gov't and their improper interventions in the market place.

The question/ problem why would they spend any time or money there, if they thought they never really had a chance to make an impact?

Does unnecessary gov't intervention in the marketplace increase those chances or decrease?


If the gov't was doing the proper job of maintaining a true competitive market place by making it easier, not harder, for resources to enter the market place then we would all be better off.
Instead, we have a gov't that creates protected business groups as long as they serve the gov't desires

Either side, this is bad
Sad thing, you are willing to excuse it for the Left.
Probably, because you feel the goals are more "noble"

Quite often, people want the ends without understanding the means

 

[Wry Catcher]

A better clue that he is on the right track is that a tool like you chooses to criticize it.

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

Fly Catcher's monumental and endless dishonesty is well known. There's not much point in trying to have a real discussion with a dishonest piece of crap like him.

Still, on the off hope that he might someday find some small shred of integrity:

Roadmap for America's Future, Rep. Ryan.

Next?

And how will Ryan's vision put American's back to work? Cut taxes, cut regulation and to cut medicare, medicade and privatize social security are non starters. It is and remains the GOP strategy to stall recovery until the next election, as well as a means to redistribute the wealth in America. Take from the middle class and give to the corporate interests who put the Ryan's into elected office.

It is an old battle, Labor v. Capital; I side with Labor for I believe those who toil are more noble than those who do not.

 

[Neotrotsky]

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

Fly Catcher's monumental and endless dishonesty is well known. There's not much point in trying to have a real discussion with a dishonest piece of crap like him.

Still, on the off hope that he might someday find some small shred of integrity:

Roadmap for America's Future, Rep. Ryan.

Next?

And how will Ryan's vision put American's back to work? Cut taxes, cut regulation and to cut medicare, medicade and privatize social security are non starters. It is and remains the GOP strategy to stall recovery until the next election, as well as a means to redistribute the wealth in America. Take from the middle class and give to the corporate interests who put the Ryan's into elected office.

It is an old battle, Labor v. Capital; I side with Labor for I believe those who toil are more noble than those who do not.

The Ryan Plan is actually the first adult plan to come out of Congress in a long time.
People having more control over the money is a desirable goal and brings more market elements in not out ; unless you believe/ prefer that politicians and bureaucrats can do a better job

The current poor economic state is only part of the problem and short run. Because of years and years of poor leadership from both parties, we as a gov't are now reaching a critical mass where the "luxury" of spending or doing whatever we want in the short run, is gone. Indeed, current fiscal policy NOW and for the next several generations, will have to deal with and be limited by the reality of what we have created. ie we have serious long term issues

Sustained and real economic growth in the long run would be the best solution. Even Keynes called for his policies to be temporary solutions, not long term planning. Gov't can not create wealth, it can only move it around.

This will require hard choices, however, by the American people and politicians.
Short run solutions to long run problems will not work.

We are, my friend, more away from what any one tax increase/decrease or deficit spending program can really fix in the long run.

Sadly, the party is over or in the words of Papa Obama's pastor of 20 years,
the "chickens are coming home to roost"

---------------------------------

Playing the phony class struggle does not help your argument

I suggest it may be time to pull out the "race card"

 

[Liability]

And a glib comment from LIEability, and let it be noted not one bit of evidence offered as to what efforts by the GOP have been made to mitigate the economic disaster inherited by Obama from Booooooooooooooosh.

As a member of the bar, LIEability, and in a sober moment - if you have one - be so kind as to offer an example of Boehner or McConnell or any Republican (there are a couple in Congress who actually think and act independently) offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis? Just one.

Fly Catcher's monumental and endless dishonesty is well known. There's not much point in trying to have a real discussion with a dishonest piece of crap like him.

Still, on the off hope that he might someday find some small shred of integrity:

Roadmap for America's Future, Rep. Ryan.

Next?

And how will Ryan's vision put American's back to work? Cut taxes, cut regulation and to cut medicare, medicade and privatize social security are non starters. It is and remains the GOP strategy to stall recovery until the next election, as well as a means to redistribute the wealth in America. Take from the middle class and give to the corporate interests who put the Ryan's into elected office.

It is an old battle, Labor v. Capital; I side with Labor for I believe those who toil are more noble than those who do not.

Let's stop you for one second, genius.

You are moving the goal-posts.

The topic of this dopey thread is whether or not the GOP is attempting to prevent a recovery. That is such a stupid faux question, it's a shame the thread got any bites.

One of the major problems in the Republic is that our economy is endangered to the point of disaster by the debt and deficit problems.

Trying to get a handle on that serious (very deadly serious) problem may be difficult, but it's an effort that could pay off WITH a recovery.

Nobody gives a crap that you are a socialist blah blah blah economic pink lefty or whatever you libs like to label yourselves these days. That was not the question.

You asked me to name ANY (even just one) Republican "offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis?" I answered and then you offered your deflection.

So, steering it back to the actual topic, I shall now quote myself:

We have created a MASSIVE, major and deadly-serious economic problem for the Republic.

We did this by spending tons of money we don't have and have no real prospect of acquiring.

The liberal Dumbocrap way out of the box is to essentially keep doing the very same thing that GOT us here in the first place.

The basic conservative (and to some extent the Republican) proposal to extricate us from this mess is to STOP doing what got us here.

Liberals cannot see their own insanity.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Policies from either party that unnecessarily increases the economics of scales up, forcing competition out and increasing the size of the remaining companies where lobbying efforts are the only way for them to protect their market share, does not a free market make...



Secret deals with gov't - you are right
nothing statist or crony capitalist about that ....

In your first paragraph you seem to get it, to blame it on Obama or the left (and anyone who characterizes Obama as left is either ignorant or a propagandist) is disingenuous. It is a systemic problem and both parties are complicit.

No bid contracts, private armies and corporate influence way beyond lobbying (which has many benefits and is practiced by the left and right, non profits, local, state governments and special districts) are not the exclusive actions of Democrats or the left as you suggest.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled money is tantamount to free speech (CU v. FEC) any chance to prevent our becoming a full scale plutocracy has deminished. That is the type of bloodless coup of which I wrote. You may disagree and I hope to be wrong but I see this first decade of the 21st C as a great threat to the Republic, a Republic which Franklin long ago reportedly said was ours if we could keep it.

The SCOTUS was right. Why?
The problem is the gov't and their improper interventions in the market place.Define improper
The question/ problem why would they spend any time or money there, if they thought they never really had a chance to make an impact?Who is they?

Does unnecessary gov't intervention in the marketplace increase those chances or decrease?What is necesseary/unnecessary? Whose chance for success?


If the gov't was doing the proper job of maintaining a true competitive market place by making it easier, not harder, for resources to enter the market place then we would all be better off.Let the buyer beware? No EPA, FDA, etc?
Instead, we have a gov't that creates protected business groups as long as they serve the gov't desiresgreen energy initiatives?

Either side, this is bad
Sad thing, you are willing to excuse it for the Left.
Probably, because you feel the goals are more "noble"
Actully I'm not left. I don't support PETA or the rioters at WTO meeings; I don't support McVeigh, or Rudolph or the idiot fringe on the right either.

Quite often, people want the ends without understanding the means

As a moderate who believes in evolution not revolution I understand very well that the process is important; ends never justify evil, hatful or violent means.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Policies from either party that unnecessarily increases the economics of scales up, forcing competition out and increasing the size of the remaining companies where lobbying efforts are the only way for them to protect their market share, does not a free market make...



Secret deals with gov't - you are right
nothing statist or crony capitalist about that ....

In your first paragraph you seem to get it, to blame it on Obama or the left (and anyone who characterizes Obama as left is either ignorant or a propagandist) is disingenuous. It is a systemic problem and both parties are complicit.

No bid contracts, private armies and corporate influence way beyond lobbying (which has many benefits and is practiced by the left and right, non profits, local, state governments and special districts) are not the exclusive actions of Democrats or the left as you suggest.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled money is tantamount to free speech (CU v. FEC) any chance to prevent our becoming a full scale plutocracy has deminished. That is the type of bloodless coup of which I wrote. You may disagree and I hope to be wrong but I see this first decade of the 21st C as a great threat to the Republic, a Republic which Franklin long ago reportedly said was ours if we could keep it.

The SCOTUS was right.
The problem is the gov't and their improper interventions in the market place.

The question/ problem why would they spend any time or money there, if they thought they never really had a chance to make an impact?

Does unnecessary gov't intervention in the marketplace increase those chances or decrease?


If the gov't was doing the proper job of maintaining a true competitive market place by making it easier, not harder, for resources to enter the market place then we would all be better off.
Instead, we have a gov't that creates protected business groups as long as they serve the gov't desires

Either side, this is bad
Sad thing, you are willing to excuse it for the Left.
Probably, because you feel the goals are more "noble"

Quite often, people want the ends without understanding the means

Fly Catcher's monumental and endless dishonesty is well known. There's not much point in trying to have a real discussion with a dishonest piece of crap like him.

Still, on the off hope that he might someday find some small shred of integrity:

Roadmap for America's Future, Rep. Ryan.

Next?

And how will Ryan's vision put American's back to work? Cut taxes, cut regulation and to cut medicare, medicade and privatize social security are non starters. It is and remains the GOP strategy to stall recovery until the next election, as well as a means to redistribute the wealth in America. Take from the middle class and give to the corporate interests who put the Ryan's into elected office.

It is an old battle, Labor v. Capital; I side with Labor for I believe those who toil are more noble than those who do not.

Let's stop you for one second, genius.

You are moving the goal-posts.

The topic of this dopey thread is whether or not the GOP is attempting to prevent a recovery. That is such a stupid faux question, it's a shame the thread got any bites.

One of the major problems in the Republic is that our economy is endangered to the point of disaster by the debt and deficit problems.

Trying to get a handle on that serious (very deadly serious) problem may be difficult, but it's an effort that could pay off WITH a recovery.

Nobody gives a crap that you are a socialist blah blah blah economic pink lefty or whatever you libs like to label yourselves these days. That was not the question.

You asked me to name ANY (even just one) Republican "offering a a viable pragmatic solution to our economic crisis?" I answered and then you offered your deflection.

So, steering it back to the actual topic, I shall now quote myself:

We have created a MASSIVE, major and deadly-serious economic problem for the Republic.

We did this by spending tons of money we don't have and have no real prospect of acquiring.

The liberal Dumbocrap way out of the box is to essentially keep doing the very same thing that GOT us here in the first place.

The basic conservative (and to some extent the Republican) proposal to extricate us from this mess is to STOP doing what got us here.

Liberals cannot see their own insanity.

You ignore (intentionally I suppose) PRAGMATIC solution. Ryan's message, and I admit I haven't studied its detail, seems to be more demagoguery from the right, and not a practical soluton to a long term problem. Cutting spending is imperative, cutting blindly without evaluating the consequences - both intended and unexpected - is stupid and a hysterical response not a reasoned one. Cutting it in one year is absurd and an election tactic.

A very simple analogy is in order. It makes sense to spend to put a new roof on a house even if the money must be borrowed. Failing to take care of manditory needs to cut spending can result in greater costs down the road.

 

[Neotrotsky]

In your first paragraph you seem to get it, to blame it on Obama or the left (and anyone who characterizes Obama as left is either ignorant or a propagandist) is disingenuous. It is a systemic problem and both parties are complicit.

No bid contracts, private armies and corporate influence way beyond lobbying (which has many benefits and is practiced by the left and right, non profits, local, state governments and special districts) are not the exclusive actions of Democrats or the left as you suggest.

Now that the Supreme Court has ruled money is tantamount to free speech (CU v. FEC) any chance to prevent our becoming a full scale plutocracy has deminished. That is the type of bloodless coup of which I wrote. You may disagree and I hope to be wrong but I see this first decade of the 21st C as a great threat to the Republic, a Republic which Franklin long ago reportedly said was ours if we could keep it.

The SCOTUS was right. Why?
Property rights are fundamental to our Republic; (you had no problem with Unions, right)
The problem is the gov't and their improper interventions in the market place.Define improper
PapaObama Care; Bush Medicare D

The question/ problem why would they spend any time or money there, if they thought they never really had a chance to make an impact?Who is they?
corporate people, non profits etc


Does unnecessary gov't intervention in the marketplace increase those chances or decrease?What is necesseary/unnecessary? Whose chance for success?

not allowing competition across state lines

If the gov't was doing the proper job of maintaining a true competitive market place by making it easier, not harder, for resources to enter the market place then we would all be better off.Let the buyer beware? No EPA, FDA, etc?
Yes indeed, buyer beware- Post Office, Public School, DMV etc

Instead, we have a gov't that creates protected business groups as long as they serve the gov't desiresgreen energy initiatives?

Either side, this is bad
Sad thing, you are willing to excuse it for the Left.
Probably, because you feel the goals are more "noble"
Actully I'm not left. I don't support PETA or the rioters at WTO meeings; I don't support McVeigh, or Rudolph or the idiot fringe on the right either.

Not left, well it that makes you feel better, lets just say you are Not right

Quite often, people want the ends without understanding the means

As a moderate who believes in evolution not revolution I understand very well that the process is important; ends never justify evil, hatful or violent means.

If you really understood the means then you would never call for some of the things you want


Kevin Williamson:

"One insidious aspect of socialist governments’ wealth redistribution policies is that they allow for the redistribution of political rights. Because property rights are fundamental to any liberal society, the disruption of those bedrock rights invites the truncation of many other political rights."
​

I know, the Left will get it right this time

 

[Neotrotsky]

This thread is about the GOP intentionally preventing a recovery. The current effort of the GOP is to focus on the debt ceiling, a strategy employed by the GOP leadership to extort consessons from Obama to benefit those they represent, big oil, big pharma, big farma and the insurance industry.

No job bills have been discussed in the House of Representatives, they spend more time on vacation (recessed) and giving press conferences than working. Only 18 bills have been passed by the House and 15 of those named Federal Buildings.

Daveboy and the other apologists for the GOP continue to deflect from the premise of this thread. That being the GOP hopes for at least a double dip, and potentially a full collapse of our economy.

Gobama!

That you're incapable of seeing the damage Obama and the Democrats are doing to the economy is meaningless. Once again, a leftist thinks his perceptions define reality. Reality, however, refuses to cooperate.

A bloodless coup to establish a Plutocracy is their ulitimate goal, a 21st C form of Corporatism.

Wow. It sounds like you need to put these dangerous conservatives into camps or something.

Shall I PM you my address?

It amazing and sad how these same failed policies keep coming back

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