Is the Vatican full of Nazis?

[jillian]

*yawn*

 

[pfife]

*yawn*

THe irony of you doing exactly this to me is noted:

That's because you aren't interested in reality and you know the answer doesn't fit with your paradigm.

You're not interested in what I really think because it doesn't fit with your paradigm. So you just conjure up what I think so it fits your paradigm.

 

[Annie]

THe irony of you doing exactly this to me is noted:



You're not interested in what I really think because it doesn't fit with your paradigm. So you just conjure up what I think so it fits your paradigm.

For crying out loud, why can't you just say what you find common? Is that too much to ask? You keep using paradigm, what are you referring to?

 

[pfife]

For crying out loud, why can't you just say what you find common?

I don't know what you're asking me here.

Is that too much to ask? You keep using paradigm, what are you referring to?

Jillian is the one who used it - I don't know what it was in reference to - it was stated that I ignore things that don't fit my paradigm.

I'm still waiting for Jillian to inform me what my paradigm is, as I asked already.

 

[mightypeon]

@ Ravi, iirc, the UNO stated that they had to stop distributing food and medical supplies in Palastine due to Israel not allowing them the get enough food in there at several, also, the Palestinians claimed (something I would pull less weight to then the UNO missives) they did not have enough fuel to run hospitals, something that is a very serious situation.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Timeline: Gaza blockade crisis

I would still label the blockade as quite close to the Berlin blockade.
I would also like to point out that Israels Casus Belli in the 6-day war was that Egypt blockaded them by cutting off Israeli supply lines to their only red sea port.

 

[del]

Gaza was a humanitarian crisis before the current incursion. That's like someone working now to prevent the sinking of the Titanic.

that's an exceptionally stupid statement, imo.

 

[Ravi]

@ Ravi, iirc, the UNO stated that they had to stop distributing food and medical supplies in Palastine due to Israel not allowing them the get enough food in there at several, also, the Palestinians claimed (something I would pull less weight to then the UNO missives) they did not have enough fuel to run hospitals, something that is a very serious situation.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Timeline: Gaza blockade crisis

I would still label the blockade as quite close to the Berlin blockade.
I would also like to point out that Israels Casus Belli in the 6-day war was that Egypt blockaded them by cutting off Israeli supply lines to their only red sea port.

If it was that simple, that Israel started launching rockets at Egypt because of a blockade, they were wrong. I have a feeling it was a bit more complicated.

Out of curiosity, what would you have Israel do to respond to all the rockets launched at them by Hamas?

My understanding is that Hamas was elected into power, kicked any non-Hamas supporters out of the region/power, Israel and Egypt responded by a blockade (not a war) and Hamas responded to the blockade by attacking Israel.

 

[dilloduck]

If it was that simple, that Israel started launching rockets at Egypt because of a blockade, they were wrong. I have a feeling it was a bit more complicated.

Out of curiosity, what would you have Israel do to respond to all the rockets launched at them by Hamas?

My understanding is that Hamas was elected into power, kicked any non-Hamas supporters out of the region/power, Israel and Egypt responded by a blockade (not a war) and Hamas responded to the blockade by attacking Israel.

Hamas doesn't attack---they provoke Israel to attack. Israel responds--Hamas bitches- the world bitches etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

[jillian]

Hamas doesn't attack---they provoke Israel to attack. Israel responds--Hamas bitches- the world bitches etc etc etc etc etc etc.

dunno... i think 3,000 missiles constitutes an attack. no?

 

[DiveCon]

dunno... i think 3,000 missiles constitutes an attack. no?

i think the first rocket/mortar did

especially when Hamas did NOTHING to make it stop
gotta love how the Hamas supporters will claim it was a "splinter group" and show ONE Israeli that tried to fire a rocket into a west bank town as an example, when Israel ARRESTED that Israeli for doing it

 

[dilloduck]

dunno... i think 3,000 missiles constitutes an attack. no?

no it's provocation---they don't have the means to launch an attack. When I see Hamas troops and tanks heading for Israel I will believe it's an attack. Do you seriously think Hamas believes they can launch a full attack on Israel ?

 

[AmericaFirst]

no it's provocation---they don't have the means to launch an attack. When I see Hamas troops and tanks heading for Israel I will believe it's an attack. Do you seriously think Hamas believes they can launch a full attack on Israel ?

That's why Israeli never fully funded them. Just enough to eliminate the PLO and to be the divide among Palastine with Fatah

 

[garyd]

That has to rank up there with the dumbest freaking statements I've ever read in my life dillo. So as long as Israel only drops bombs and fires Artillery they aren't realy attacking Hamas eithewr right?

 

[dilloduck]

That has to rank up there with the dumbest freaking statements I've ever read in my life dillo. So as long as Israel only drops bombs and fires Artillery they aren't realy attacking Hamas eithewr right?

It's all semantics. You understand Israel is going after gnats with nukes don't you ?


( not really nukes----it was just a good word )

 

[DiveCon]

It's all semantics. You understand Israel is going after gnats with nukes don't you ?


( not really nukes----it was just a good word )

so, should Israel respond by launching inaccurate rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Gaza and target civilians like Hamas?

 

[dilloduck]

so, should Israel respond by launching inaccurate rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Gaza and target civilians like Hamas?

I wouldn't presume to tell anyone over there what to do. Why does the US tell Israel what to do. Or is it the other way around ?
Being involved at all seems a bit seedy.

 

[DiveCon]

I wouldn't presume to tell anyone over there what to do. Why does the US tell Israel what to do. Or is it the other way around ?
Being involved at all seems a bit seedy.

well, it seemed like you were using that tired old "proportional force" argument crap
sorry, if you tease a bear with a stick, you wont just get teased with a stick in return

 

[dilloduck]

well, it seemed like you were using that tired old "proportional force" argument crap
sorry, if you tease a bear with a stick, you wont just get teased with a stick in return

like I've been saying---Hamas knows full well it's what kind of retaliation it is provoking.

It's like an American election without the bullets, bombs and rockets.

 

[mightypeon]

@ Ravi:
What I would do in Israels stead? I am by no means an experts, but my more or less common sense based guesses:

In my opinion the blockade did/does more to unite the Gazans behind Hamas then to divide them into a pro Israel and a pro hamas block. My reasoning for this is that there were nearly no communism supporters left in west Berlin after/during the Berlin blockade either.

A) Stike very preferential deals with Fatah. Showing that Palestinians under Fatah are much better of than those under Hamas is propably a very good idea.
B) I think that giving control of the humanitarian aid to the UNO was not that smart of Israel, if possible, they should try to do it themselfs. If Hamas shoots Israeli supplies intended for Gaza in Gaza (they cannot shoot in an accurate way anywhere else), they will likely have a hard time in explaining that to their population.
C) Get a better grip over the media. At the moment, Israel blocked access to the international media, which means that the only ones actually sending material from Gaza are arabian media services which are influenced by Hamas. I would guess that Hamas does quite a lot of censorhip f.e. there are suspiciously few pictures of Hamas fighters actually fighting, other pictures do not look very plausible too.
If the international media would be allowed in, Israel would gain some more postive media, especially if they manage to embedd selected journalists in a decent matter.
Georgia did a fairly good job in creating favourable PR for example, for a long time they managed to sell a Georgian war of aggression as an act of evil Russian oppression, even though their interpretation was quite adverse to the facts.
D) Have some fun with transmitting totally false information.
One example would be to release prisoners, and spread rumors about their level of cooperation with Israel. I think that succesfully "blaming" a hamas leader to be working for Israel (especially if he was not) would hurt Hamas more than killing one.
Groups like Hamas die of treason, not of martyrs.

So basically:
-Tight border controls, not blockades, collective punishment always introduces a sense of unity in those punished. This is diametrally opposed to the aim of severing Hamas from their public support.
-Create divisions and distrust within Gaza
-Use the press instead of surrendering much of the source-PR-field to Hamas

A more detailed explanation of why the collective punishment approach is unlikely to work:
Collective punishment is sometimes used in bootcamps. If one screws up, the entire Squad/Platoon etc. gets punished a bit. The goal is to create a sense of unity in the punished unit while also removing deviations, as militaries like to be uniform.
In a military situation, this works because of 2 reasons.
1: The Soldier who screwed up is inferior in "power" to the majority
2: The unit is a whole has no means of averting/fighting/contesting the collective punishment

In Gaza, hamas would be the "screw up" Soldier, while the inhabitants would be the other "Soldiers" and Israel would be the "evil seargent".
One can easily see the differences: The population of Gaza would likely be hard pressed to remove hamas even if they would want too, in addition, it does not seem as if the Gazans consider their "collective punishment" as unavoidable and unfightable.
However, due to a "common evil blockading foe", the sense of unity in Gaza is still increased, and the state of war/confusion may allow Hamas to deal with some dissenters and blame the fog of war thus increasing the "uniformity" of the Gazans.

A difference to the Boot camp example is the stipulation that Hamas fighting proficiency is significantly decreased due to the blockades. I am not sure that an unblockaded Hamas could fight Israel mutch better than their blockaded incarnation. I daresay that it would be actually good for Israel if hamas becomes a more conventional force, since I would guess that the Israeli army can deal with Tanks better than it can deal with improvised explosive devices and the like.

Cheers,

Mightypeon

 

[Ravi]

no it's provocation---they don't have the means to launch an attack. When I see Hamas troops and tanks heading for Israel I will believe it's an attack. Do you seriously think Hamas believes they can launch a full attack on Israel ?

Kind of like 9/11? Not a military attack but a terrorist attack.