I don't know what spiritual healing is, and I couldn't begin believing it until I witnessed it with my own two eyes and any tricks or possible mis-drawn conclusions were ALL ruled out. Soundly.Well here's the thing, what you replace it with is the admission that there doesn't currently exist a logical PROOF for god, but instead only subjective arguments which some are good, and some are bad.I think you don't understand something about TAG.Scott Peck started out with this idea, thinking he was going to debunk it,
but ended up getting convinced and changing his mind completely.
What if we replicated his observations into formal research studies?
how about that approach using something that can be quantified in stages using science
and the scientific method?
TAG boasts of BEING proof.
Your examples above are examples of people who started with a hypothesis first (hypothesis, they called it, not proof) and went from there.
TAG *calls the hypothesis proof, instead of *hypothesis.
Yes, some people don't get it, and they state it that way.
GT if we are going to correct this, I find it easier to make that change amenable
by offering to SUBSTITUTE something else
instead of rejecting the whole thing, person and whole approach.
But for each person, they may agree to SUBSTITUTE or change it differently.
Since we are dealing with MD in this case,
what can you suggest we change the starting point to?
It has to be something you, MD Hollie and others here AGREE
will serve the purposes we see as helpful but WITHOUT introducing error or
assumption that doesn't work for whatever reason.
What do you suggest and let's ask MD.
Again, I planned to pursue the spiritual healing proof process anyway.
Since you and I agree that this TAG is rejected is is,
let's go to the next step, and start sharing ideas what to replace it with.
I will post some excerpts from previous study on Spiritual Healing.
the site they were on got moved, so I will look and see if I saved
copies someplace else of the excerpts posted. Otherwise I need time to type it again...
If objective proof for god existed, these conversations wouldn't exist and 100% of people would be religious - - - - - and as humans technologically and scientifically advance, we wouldn't see the down-trend of religion participation - as we actually do see.
I'm an agnostic. I'll look for reasoned approaches to finding god or finding that there is no god. What I will not accept is snake oil, or charlatans attempting to paint a pretty picture with poorly strung together lofty words hoping that lamens don't understand that what he's selling is actually very poor reasoning all the while having the hubris to say "hey, I've got PROOF!!?!!?!!?! GOD EXISTS!!" followed by the TAG argument which begs the question and is circular.....i.e. he wasted every reasonable person's time and only the gullible who are more susceptible to such dogma find it acceptable.
Dear GT
1. First of all no, it doesn't follow that once someone sees enough proof of God to believe it then they become religious.
a. my bf understands what is meant by God and believes it, but is not Christian, not religious and stays secular
b. the patient in Scott Peck's book who received spiritual healing to get rid of demonic schizophrenic voices
dropped her new age religion and went into science and medicine
c. my friend Daron who received spiritual healing still rejects Christianity as an atheist.
he simply does not relate to or like that, and has a negative "allergic" reaction to it, just
like if someone does not like Madonna, Miley or their kind of music and stays away from it.
You do not necessarily "magically convert" to anything.
It is just adding on understanding of what other people mean and experience,
to your own ways and understanding so you expand and include more people and views.
My friend Olivia does all that spiritual healing and God tells her things etc.
but that doesn't change my experience and how I process information and get insights.
I am not going to suddenly convert and start experiencing God the way someone else does.
So my bf and I both talk about and experience life in secular terms just like before.
2. yes I agree not to push any proof that others cannot follow for whatever reason.
I'd like to see what we could start with.
If you and Hollie would like to see proof that secular people like us can
understand spiritual healing and it proves that Christian teachings are real,
but it doesn't make us become religious, we can use the spiritual healing proof for that purpose, too.
To end the rejections and objections on all sides.
if we can demonstrate it works better to prove spiritual healing
and that helps more people anyway
then more Christians would use that proof and quit this circular stuff that isn't making any sense!
For me, personally, extraordinary things require extraordinary proof. I don't accept something that can *possibly* be just a coincidence, as proof. That's too loose.
I don't accept something with other, also NOT ruled out explanations, as proof. That's too loose.
If my daughter were supposed to die and was given two weeks to live, and I happened to pray out of desperation (not because of sudden belief, but because "what if" ), and then she didn't die but was somehow cured?
I would not then begin believing.
Other possibilities are not 100% ruled out. Emotionalism or awe do not and can not replace my rationalism.
And maybe sometimes, I wish they could. But they can't.