Is There One Sound/valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God?

[Hollie]

Intelligence is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the result of its existence.
Love is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the fruits of its existence.
Wind is not seen by the naked eye but we know it exists when we feel its force.
Electricity isn't seen by the naked eye but the result of its power is known to all.

There are many forces that aren't seen but exist.

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Well, you didn't get these ideas from me. I never said God existed in our minds or that God is hardwired in our minds. I said that the knowledge of God, beginning with the idea of God, is in our minds. The laws of organic logic are universally hardwired, and as result of that the fundamental mathematical axioms from which postulates and theorems are a priori developed are hardwired. In the same way, the understanding via the organic laws of thought that God's existence cannot be logically ruled out and one cannot logically assert that God (the Creator) does not exist without contradicting oneself to the effect that one actually asserts that God does exist are hardwired axioms of human cognition.

Hence:

The Seven Things
1. We exist!
2. The cosmological order exists!
3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!
4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!
5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!
6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Simple.

No God can't be "ruled out". The cosmological order doesn't prove anything, Number 4 your are starting off with "IF" God exists. If if's and buts were candy and nuts...

None of this proves anything. NEXT!

Yes, of course, because if God exists is objective. We have an idea of God as the Creator. But the idea is not the same as God. If that's confusing to you then just read it as "Assuming that there is an actual substance of divinity behind this idea of God. . . .

Simple.

Yes you are simple. I however am not. I don't assume anything. It is you who is assuming a whole hell of a lot.

For example, I read those 7 things you posted and in no way does that make me think, "oh yea then there must be a god", but to a simpleton like you it is all the logic you need.

Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

Do you understand this? That means even your arguments have fatal flaws or more likely explanations.

I don't assume God's existence from these things. I know these things are objectively true, as do you, and it's not logically possible to say/think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist without, in actuality, logically, saying/thinking that he does exist. Period. That's it. There are no flaws in any that. Those are the facts of human cognition regarding the mattes of existence and origin. There's nothing assumed.

THE SEVEN THINGS ARE NOT A PROOF! THEY'RE A STATEMENT OF COGNITIVE FACTS THAT INCLUDES A PROOF REGARDING THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT LOGICALLY POSSIBLE TO SAY GOD DOESN'T EXIST WITHOUT ACTUALLY SAYING THAT HE DOES EXIST.

THAT'S IT. THERE IS NO MORE.

What's really weird about all this is the beliefs of folks who seem to think God is someone far away or mysteriously aloof when He's all around us and in everything. I see God everywhere, in our minds and in our logic and math, in physics. He's talking to us in everything there is. It's so obvious. God's thoughts are everywhere and in everything. Why are people having such a difficult time with all this, even theists imagine Him to be some kind of secretive being who is nothing more to them than their subjective experience. As for the atheists, I'm convinced now that they're the most superstitious people on the planet. It's just seven simple, obvious truths that no one escapes because A = A, the law of contradiction, the law of excluded middle. Do these things tell you anything about God at all? Yes, lots if you think about them. But on the face of them, they're just seven simple logical truths, objectively true and self-evident to everybody, and Fox freaks me out more than anybody. You can tell she hasn't really read or thought about any of the things that matter. She sure likes that cosmological argument though.

You're waxing poetic.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Wow silly boob, Rawlings was brutal... do you need some vaseline?

Well, I'm not trying to be brutal. LOL! But no one escapes "The Seven Things."

 

[Hollie]

Wow silly boob, Rawlings was brutal... do you need some vaseline?

Well, I'm not trying to be brutal. LOL! But no one escapes "The Seven Things."

"The Seven Self-contradictory Things"

 

[G.T.]

Wow silly boob, Rawlings was brutal... do you need some vaseline?

Well, I'm not trying to be brutal. LOL! But no one escapes "The Seven Things."

Which version?

Originally, you said god as an idea, was in our brains. True.

Then, you changed it to the idea of god is "hardwired" into our brains, biologically.

Then, you and your ankle biter Justin accused ME of changing my position.

A bit uncouth, the two of you.

There's also a post of mine that's purposefully being avoided but don't worry about THAT one, I knew it would be.

 

[DriftingSand]

Intelligence is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the result of its existence.
Love is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the fruits of its existence.
Wind is not seen by the naked eye but we know it exists when we feel its force.
Electricity isn't seen by the naked eye but the result of its power is known to all.

There are many forces that aren't seen but exist.

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

True. There are many, many copycat religions but one thing all of them have in common is their belief that there is a power greater than mankind and the universe. There is a truth to be known. One Truth. There is only one way by which mankind came to exist and you, Hollie, don't know that Way (though you're high on your personal speculation).

 

[sealybobo]

Again it is important to acknowledge the difference between 'evidence' and 'proof'. Except for MDR/Justin, there is not one single one of us among the believers, who have claimed that there is proof of God that we can show to another soul. Our only proof is our own experience and relationship with God and that is something we cannot demonstrate to you or anybody else.

But while it is not 'proof', there is evidence and logical arguments re that evidence that deserve to be in the discussion. My personal wish is for a reasoned and amicable discussion with believers and non believers about that evidence and logic, pro and con, that does not involve hateful or childish insults directed at the believers, or hateful insults directed at the non believers. And when you have believers denigrating other believers who believe differently, it gets even more muddled and futile as any kind of constructive exercise.

So the discussion invariably becomes:
--Christians are liars or delusional or brainwashed or pick an uncomplimentary adjective of choice.
--Atheists are the spawn of hell.
--Christians who don't believe as I believe are ignorant or clueless or pick an uncomplimentary adjective of choice.

I wonder if a reasoned and cordial discussion on a religious topic is possible on a message board?

There you go imagining things that aren't real again. The classical proofs are evidence on top of evidence, and logical proofs are . . . logical proofs. Logic is used to prove or disproves things, and according to the proofs of organic logic, the laws of thought, collectively, is God's logic, but to understand why that's necessarily true in organic logic, one must be willing to think the matter through while being intellectually honest and consistent.

"The Seven Things," which they all know to be true, really, except for maybe Hollie, who is not quite right in the head, are logically and objectively true for all with a sound, developmentally mature mind! There're axioms of human cognition, not proofs, except the Transcendental Argument (#6), which is an axiomatic proof for God's existence in organic logic. The denial of the latter's universal ultimacy, though not entirely unreasonable for scientific reasons, maybe, sort of, remains contradictory or paradoxical, given that one must hold that all other a priori knowledge is universal, but not the God axiom, strangely enough, and then go on to do science, again, strangely enough, using the very same kind of a priori knowledge, namely, mathematical axioms, postulates and theorems. Hmm.

But these objective facts of human cognition regarding the imperatives of the problems of existence and origin, including the inherent proofs of the I AM and the ultimate nature of the laws of thought, are intellectually apprehended. The full realization/experience of the divine reality behind them requires a leap of faith based on their testimony, but the divine reality itself is neither the proof nor the evidence, but the ultimate ground or substance of both. And faith is the evidence of the knower's belief in the testimony given.

(In the meantime, the Bible, as an aside, you understand, tells us that God has in fact proven to mankind, with rational and empirical evidence, that He exists via the very logic that is universally apparent to us all, as it is universally impressed on the soul and bioneurologically hardwired.)

The above nonsense is nothing more than the same goofy slogans and cliches' that have been cult and pasted across multiple pages, multiple times.

Really, Bunky, how sad for you that even after your arguments have been thoroughly refuted, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same nonsense in repetitive fashion post after post.

Yeah. I'm going to have to cut you off too.

Here are my 7

1, Us existing doesn't prove a god exists.
2. Science says the cosmological order does not prove a god exists.
3. You would have to meet god to "know" he exists and no one has ever met him. And you would have to be a god yourself to "know" that no god(s) exist.
4. If your all powerful god existed yes he would be amazing.
5. Theists can't prove god exists.
6. The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Okay, so we have you down on #1, #2, #3 and #4 of the origin truths right off the top, and at the same time we have you saying all kinds of false things.

Your #2 is of course false. Nothing can be asserted about God at all by science, and science doesn't prove or disprove things.

Your #3 contradicts your #2, as you simultaneously place yourself above God to make absolute statements about God, which means you assume His existence in order to tell us things about His experiences with others and make the absurd statement that a creature, which presupposes God's existence, would have to turn into to God, which presuppose God's existence again, in order to know that he's no longer a creature but the Creator. That's weird.

Your #5 is a false dilemma because theists don't have to prove God exists at all or even prove He's exists for Him to exist.

Your #6 contradicts the fact that you necessarily acknowledged that you can't logically eliminate God's existence in your various incoherencies.

And because you contradict yourself in your #1 by conceding that you exist, you necessarily hold in organic logic that God (the Creator) does exist. In others words, you say you exist but your existence doesn't prove that the Creator, Who by definition and necessity would have to exist in order to have created you, exists after all. Hmm. That's doesn't work. So we know that we have you down on #6 of the origin truths too.

So the only one we're missing out of the origin truths for you is #5: Science cannot verify or falsify God's existence. Since that's true, we'll just put you down for that one and chalk you up for all seven of the original truths.

See how that works?

Science is an exercise in falsifiability. Unlike religious dogma, which presumes the truth, the scientific method is a self correcting process, an ever sharpening blade. The models used by science to explain observations and make predictions are simply the ‘most correct’ at the time. The greatest skepticism should always be reserved for inflexible positions whose proponents insist that they and their assertions are above question and examination.

Every conceivable argument, including yours, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

Why do we care? Because as a functional member of society it benefits everyone if your decision making process is founded on evidence and reason, not on superstition. Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

And “No belief held by one man, however seemingly trivial the belief, and however obscure the believer, is ever actually insignificant or without its effect on the fate of mankind” – William Clifford

 

[Hollie]

Intelligence is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the result of its existence.
Love is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the fruits of its existence.
Wind is not seen by the naked eye but we know it exists when we feel its force.
Electricity isn't seen by the naked eye but the result of its power is known to all.

There are many forces that aren't seen but exist.

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

True. There are many, many copycat religions but one thing all of them have in common is their belief that there is a power greater than mankind and the universe. There is a truth to be known. One Truth. There is only one way by which mankind came to exist and you, Hollie, don't know that Way (though you're high on your personal speculation).

You should learn some history regarding the invention of christianity.

It's interesting that you would use the term copycat religions when that precisely describes christianity.

I think where you falter is in the futile attempt to un-link your gods from all the earlier human inventions of gods.

But second, you seem to be unable to conceptually wrap your head around the evolutionary origin of the Abrahamic faiths. For some odd reason, you are unable to draw the necessary conceptual conclusion that what is Islam evolved from Christianity, in the same way that Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolved from earlier Canaanite polytheism.

You seem to have further conveniently forgotten the Canaanite pagan polytheism from which Judaism (and hence all the following Abrahamic faiths) originally evolved.

If you insist on trying to un-stick the religions from which yours evolved, you cannot fail to embrace its pagan roots without justifying charges of special pleading. Your superstitions regarding gods have done nothing but to replace superstitions. Are you suggesting that when the Greek gods replaced the more ancient Lares of Rome, that too was not an evolution of religion?

 

[sealybobo]

There you go imagining things that aren't real again. The classical proofs are evidence on top of evidence, and logical proofs are . . . logical proofs. Logic is used to prove or disproves things, and according to the proofs of organic logic, the laws of thought, collectively, is God's logic, but to understand why that's necessarily true in organic logic, one must be willing to think the matter through while being intellectually honest and consistent.

"The Seven Things," which they all know to be true, really, except for maybe Hollie, who is not quite right in the head, are logically and objectively true for all with a sound, developmentally mature mind! There're axioms of human cognition, not proofs, except the Transcendental Argument (#6), which is an axiomatic proof for God's existence in organic logic. The denial of the latter's universal ultimacy, though not entirely unreasonable for scientific reasons, maybe, sort of, remains contradictory or paradoxical, given that one must hold that all other a priori knowledge is universal, but not the God axiom, strangely enough, and then go on to do science, again, strangely enough, using the very same kind of a priori knowledge, namely, mathematical axioms, postulates and theorems. Hmm.

But these objective facts of human cognition regarding the imperatives of the problems of existence and origin, including the inherent proofs of the I AM and the ultimate nature of the laws of thought, are intellectually apprehended. The full realization/experience of the divine reality behind them requires a leap of faith based on their testimony, but the divine reality itself is neither the proof nor the evidence, but the ultimate ground or substance of both. And faith is the evidence of the knower's belief in the testimony given.

(In the meantime, the Bible, as an aside, you understand, tells us that God has in fact proven to mankind, with rational and empirical evidence, that He exists via the very logic that is universally apparent to us all, as it is universally impressed on the soul and bioneurologically hardwired.)

The above nonsense is nothing more than the same goofy slogans and cliches' that have been cult and pasted across multiple pages, multiple times.

Really, Bunky, how sad for you that even after your arguments have been thoroughly refuted, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same nonsense in repetitive fashion post after post.

Yeah. I'm going to have to cut you off too.

Here are my 7

1, Us existing doesn't prove a god exists.
2. Science says the cosmological order does not prove a god exists.
3. You would have to meet god to "know" he exists and no one has ever met him. And you would have to be a god yourself to "know" that no god(s) exist.
4. If your all powerful god existed yes he would be amazing.
5. Theists can't prove god exists.
6. The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Okay, so we have you down on #1, #2, #3 and #4 of the origin truths right off the top, and at the same time we have you saying all kinds of false things.

Your #2 is of course false. Nothing can be asserted about God at all by science, and science doesn't prove or disprove things.

Your #3 contradicts your #2, as you simultaneously place yourself above God to make absolute statements about God, which means you assume His existence in order to tell us things about His experiences with others and make the absurd statement that a creature, which presupposes God's existence, would have to turn into to God, which presuppose God's existence again, in order to know that he's no longer a creature but the Creator. That's weird.

Your #5 is a false dilemma because theists don't have to prove God exists at all or even prove He's exists for Him to exist.

Your #6 contradicts the fact that you necessarily acknowledged that you can't logically eliminate God's existence in your various incoherencies.

And because you contradict yourself in your #1 by conceding that you exist, you necessarily hold in organic logic that God (the Creator) does exist. In others words, you say you exist but your existence doesn't prove that the Creator, Who by definition and necessity would have to exist in order to have created you, exists after all. Hmm. That's doesn't work. So we know that we have you down on #6 of the origin truths too.

So the only one we're missing out of the origin truths for you is #5: Science cannot verify or falsify God's existence. Since that's true, we'll just put you down for that one and chalk you up for all seven of the original truths.

See how that works?

That's remarkable. You exempt yourself from any pwoof of your baseless claims. How cool is that? You grant yourself an exclusive right to make any pointless, baseless you wushu and you're not under any obligation to support your claims with fact or evidence.

It's like, you're a complete moron.

Being open-minded does not mean accepting claims outright, it means demonstrating the willingness to consider new ones. An open-minded person is receptive to new ideas, opinions and arguments and wants to discover their real truth-value before accepting them. Atheists are generally very open-minded.

Unjustified belief in the supernatural does not automatically make someone open-minded and, conversely, disbelief – pending further evidence – does not automatically make someone close-minded.

Athiests simply do not usually exhibit gullibility or credulity. They maintain a standard of evidence proportional to the extraordinary nature of certain claims. They are usually open to the idea of god, but so far unconvinced by any evidence or argument put forward to support it.

We are the ones keeping an open mind. Just not convinced yet.

 

[sealybobo]

Intelligence is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the result of its existence.
Love is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the fruits of its existence.
Wind is not seen by the naked eye but we know it exists when we feel its force.
Electricity isn't seen by the naked eye but the result of its power is known to all.

There are many forces that aren't seen but exist.

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

True. There are many, many copycat religions but one thing all of them have in common is their belief that there is a power greater than mankind and the universe. There is a truth to be known. One Truth. There is only one way by which mankind came to exist and you, Hollie, don't know that Way (though you're high on your personal speculation).

You should learn some history regarding the invention of christianity.

It's interesting that you would use the term copycat religions when that precisely describes christianity.

I think where you falter is in the futile attempt to un-link your gods from all the earlier human inventions of gods.

But second, you seem to be unable to conceptually wrap your head around the evolutionary origin of the Abrahamic faiths. For some odd reason, you are unable to draw the necessary conceptual conclusion that what is Islam evolved from Christianity, in the same way that Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolved from earlier Canaanite polytheism.

You seem to have further conveniently forgotten the Canaanite pagan polytheism from which Judaism (and hence all the following Abrahamic faiths) originally evolved.

If you insist on trying to un-stick the religions from which yours evolved, you cannot fail to embrace its pagan roots without justifying charges of special pleading. Your superstitions regarding gods have done nothing but to replace superstitions. Are you suggesting that when the Greek gods replaced the more ancient Lares of Rome, that too was not an evolution of religion?

I'm not going to worry about these brainwashed fools. Think about the younger generation today who for the first time are questioning all this. At least they have the internet. I remember when I was young all I had was my friends, family and society telling me god is real, god is real, god is real. I didn't know one atheist growing up. No one questioned god. Not out loud anyways. So growing up all I was told was either believe or go to hell and I didn't have something like this to look at before deciding. Why there is no god I wish I did. It would have saved me years of debating it in my head. So glad I let that shit go.

Oh yea, another benefit we have today is cable tv. Back when I was growing up, they didn't have the Science Channel or other cable channels that might present the atheists side. For example the Cosmos.

 

[sealybobo]

Wow silly boob, Rawlings was brutal... do you need some vaseline?

Did you see yesterday I said you make way better arguments for the existence of a god than he does? This shit is weak compared to you. You at least got me scratching my head a few times at least. But then I realized that we've been wondering this and debating this for 200,000 years and we still don't know. I'm only humans. Humans don't like not knowing things and this is absolutely one of those things we don't know.

Especially if you toss out all the organized religions and their lies about when god visited them. Even you know that's a lie. So I wonder at what point did theists stop believing in generic god like you do and start making up stories about him visiting them? Why did they need to lie? Again, it's because humans hate not knowing. So whoever made up the stories about god visiting them was just providing people with a service.

People need to know and religion provided what they needed.

I myself don't need it. Neither do you but it is so ingrained in your pea head you can't get it out and you actually think this god talks to you. And I'm supposed to believe you or Rawlings could mentally butt fuck me? Ha!

 

[Boss]

There you go imagining things that aren't real again. The classical proofs are evidence on top of evidence, and logical proofs are . . . logical proofs. Logic is used to prove or disproves things, and according to the proofs of organic logic, the laws of thought, collectively, is God's logic, but to understand why that's necessarily true in organic logic, one must be willing to think the matter through while being intellectually honest and consistent.

"The Seven Things," which they all know to be true, really, except for maybe Hollie, who is not quite right in the head, are logically and objectively true for all with a sound, developmentally mature mind! There're axioms of human cognition, not proofs, except the Transcendental Argument (#6), which is an axiomatic proof for God's existence in organic logic. The denial of the latter's universal ultimacy, though not entirely unreasonable for scientific reasons, maybe, sort of, remains contradictory or paradoxical, given that one must hold that all other a priori knowledge is universal, but not the God axiom, strangely enough, and then go on to do science, again, strangely enough, using the very same kind of a priori knowledge, namely, mathematical axioms, postulates and theorems. Hmm.

But these objective facts of human cognition regarding the imperatives of the problems of existence and origin, including the inherent proofs of the I AM and the ultimate nature of the laws of thought, are intellectually apprehended. The full realization/experience of the divine reality behind them requires a leap of faith based on their testimony, but the divine reality itself is neither the proof nor the evidence, but the ultimate ground or substance of both. And faith is the evidence of the knower's belief in the testimony given.

(In the meantime, the Bible, as an aside, you understand, tells us that God has in fact proven to mankind, with rational and empirical evidence, that He exists via the very logic that is universally apparent to us all, as it is universally impressed on the soul and bioneurologically hardwired.)

The above nonsense is nothing more than the same goofy slogans and cliches' that have been cult and pasted across multiple pages, multiple times.

Really, Bunky, how sad for you that even after your arguments have been thoroughly refuted, you're reduced to cutting and pasting the same nonsense in repetitive fashion post after post.

Yeah. I'm going to have to cut you off too.

Here are my 7

1, Us existing doesn't prove a god exists.
2. Science says the cosmological order does not prove a god exists.
3. You would have to meet god to "know" he exists and no one has ever met him. And you would have to be a god yourself to "know" that no god(s) exist.
4. If your all powerful god existed yes he would be amazing.
5. Theists can't prove god exists.
6. The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Okay, so we have you down on #1, #2, #3 and #4 of the origin truths right off the top, and at the same time we have you saying all kinds of false things.

Your #2 is of course false. Nothing can be asserted about God at all by science, and science doesn't prove or disprove things.

Your #3 contradicts your #2, as you simultaneously place yourself above God to make absolute statements about God, which means you assume His existence in order to tell us things about His experiences with others and make the absurd statement that a creature, which presupposes God's existence, would have to turn into to God, which presuppose God's existence again, in order to know that he's no longer a creature but the Creator. That's weird.

Your #5 is a false dilemma because theists don't have to prove God exists at all or even prove He's exists for Him to exist.

Your #6 contradicts the fact that you necessarily acknowledged that you can't logically eliminate God's existence in your various incoherencies.

And because you contradict yourself in your #1 by conceding that you exist, you necessarily hold in organic logic that God (the Creator) does exist. In others words, you say you exist but your existence doesn't prove that the Creator, Who by definition and necessity would have to exist in order to have created you, exists after all. Hmm. That's doesn't work. So we know that we have you down on #6 of the origin truths too.

So the only one we're missing out of the origin truths for you is #5: Science cannot verify or falsify God's existence. Since that's true, we'll just put you down for that one and chalk you up for all seven of the original truths.

See how that works?

Science is an exercise in falsifiability. Unlike religious dogma, which presumes the truth, the scientific method is a self correcting process, an ever sharpening blade. The models used by science to explain observations and make predictions are simply the ‘most correct’ at the time. The greatest skepticism should always be reserved for inflexible positions whose proponents insist that they and their assertions are above question and examination.

Every conceivable argument, including yours, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

Why do we care? Because as a functional member of society it benefits everyone if your decision making process is founded on evidence and reason, not on superstition. Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

And “No belief held by one man, however seemingly trivial the belief, and however obscure the believer, is ever actually insignificant or without its effect on the fate of mankind” – William Clifford

Science is the worst thing that ever happened to you. It is used as an excuse for you to remain ignorant. It enables you to disbelieve what you instinctively know is true. It is your hiding place, your 'safe harbor' from broader intellectual thought. You pervert science for your own purposes and assume science speaks for your banality. You've forged science into a weapon of war against religion and the religious.

In short, you are a much lesser human being because of science. While science has brought mankind many wondrous discoveries, it has contributed to your personal devolution. Science lifted man out of the Dark Ages but has relegated you to the status of a monkey. You would have ended up a better human being had you never heard of science.

 

[DriftingSand]

Intelligence is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the result of its existence.
Love is unseen by the naked eye but we know it exists by the fruits of its existence.
Wind is not seen by the naked eye but we know it exists when we feel its force.
Electricity isn't seen by the naked eye but the result of its power is known to all.

There are many forces that aren't seen but exist.

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

True. There are many, many copycat religions but one thing all of them have in common is their belief that there is a power greater than mankind and the universe. There is a truth to be known. One Truth. There is only one way by which mankind came to exist and you, Hollie, don't know that Way (though you're high on your personal speculation).

You should learn some history regarding the invention of christianity.

It's interesting that you would use the term copycat religions when that precisely describes christianity.

I think where you falter is in the futile attempt to un-link your gods from all the earlier human inventions of gods.

But second, you seem to be unable to conceptually wrap your head around the evolutionary origin of the Abrahamic faiths. For some odd reason, you are unable to draw the necessary conceptual conclusion that what is Islam evolved from Christianity, in the same way that Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolved from earlier Canaanite polytheism.

You seem to have further conveniently forgotten the Canaanite pagan polytheism from which Judaism (and hence all the following Abrahamic faiths) originally evolved.

If you insist on trying to un-stick the religions from which yours evolved, you cannot fail to embrace its pagan roots without justifying charges of special pleading. Your superstitions regarding gods have done nothing but to replace superstitions. Are you suggesting that when the Greek gods replaced the more ancient Lares of Rome, that too was not an evolution of religion?

Sorry you're so easily duped by so-called "historians" but the "Inventor" of Christianity is Jesus Christ. He was born to a virgin; He was God in the flesh; He learned the ways of men to show how to overcome sin; He taught wise and true tenets concerning man's relationship to Himself (God) and fellow men; He was murdered by folks like you who hated Him and His teachings; He shed His blood to pay for your sins and mine; He died and was buried; He rose from the grave three days later (the Temple made without hands); and He rose in triumphant glory to take His throne in the Kingdom. He will return with His angels to clean up man's mess. He will judge the souls of all mankind. Those who accept (accepted) Him will live for eternity in His Kingdom while those who reject Him will be sent to hell.

There's your history lesson. It can be found in the most read book in mankind's history, the Bible.

 

[Hollie]

You forgot to add supernaturalism and gawds inhabiting magic spirit realms.

True (since I've never heard of a "gawd"). However, I do believe that God exists in the Heavenly realm. We know of His existence because:

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Jeremiah 51:15, ""He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding."

And others, by happenstance of geography and culture, will have competing gawds as inventions of men who wrote competing versions of "holy texts".

We know their gawds are true, thus your gawds are not.

True. There are many, many copycat religions but one thing all of them have in common is their belief that there is a power greater than mankind and the universe. There is a truth to be known. One Truth. There is only one way by which mankind came to exist and you, Hollie, don't know that Way (though you're high on your personal speculation).

You should learn some history regarding the invention of christianity.

It's interesting that you would use the term copycat religions when that precisely describes christianity.

I think where you falter is in the futile attempt to un-link your gods from all the earlier human inventions of gods.

But second, you seem to be unable to conceptually wrap your head around the evolutionary origin of the Abrahamic faiths. For some odd reason, you are unable to draw the necessary conceptual conclusion that what is Islam evolved from Christianity, in the same way that Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolved from earlier Canaanite polytheism.

You seem to have further conveniently forgotten the Canaanite pagan polytheism from which Judaism (and hence all the following Abrahamic faiths) originally evolved.

If you insist on trying to un-stick the religions from which yours evolved, you cannot fail to embrace its pagan roots without justifying charges of special pleading. Your superstitions regarding gods have done nothing but to replace superstitions. Are you suggesting that when the Greek gods replaced the more ancient Lares of Rome, that too was not an evolution of religion?

Sorry you're so easily duped by so-called "historians" but the "Inventor" of Christianity is Jesus Christ. He was born to a virgin; He was God in the flesh; He learned the ways of men to show how to overcome sin; He taught wise and true tenets concerning man's relationship to Himself (God) and fellow men; He was murdered by folks like you who hated Him and His teachings; He shed His blood to pay for your sins and mine; He died and was buried; He rose from the grave three days later (the Temple made without hands); and He rose in triumphant glory to take His throne in the Kingdom. He will return with His angels to clean up man's mess. He will judge the souls of all mankind. Those who accept (accepted) Him will live for eternity in His Kingdom while those who reject Him will be sent to hell.

There's your history lesson. It can be found in the most read book in mankind's history, the Bible.

Umm. Sorry, but you obviously have never studied christianity. Paul was the inventor of Christianity.

Pretty cool how you conceded the evolution of Christianity from earlier pagan polytheism. Those earlier roots are even evident in the polytheistic nature of your three gods.

Why do you think Paul, in his invention of Christianity, needed to steal the theology of Judaism and even stole Hebrew scripture before assigning the polytheistic christian gods?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

We came up with that theory a long time ago when we weren't that educated. We were also very curious, superstitious animals and we don't like not knowing what we don't know.

One thing we don't know is how we all got here. But theists came up with an answer. Not a very good one. Not one based on proof but on speculation. Bottom line is all you know and believe is that something must have created us. That's all you are really saying. But that's not true. At least it doesn't have to be a "god".

And when you say "god", do you mean "something" that created us or is it the god in the bible or koran? Do you think god ever visited any human on this planet?

If the answer is yes then I guess you are too gullible to even talk sense to.

But if you are talking about a generic "something" that created us? I can tell you that science has given that question a lot of thought and so far they have not found a god yet. They have figured out all the things you guys use to think were god ended up not being god. You didn't get cancer because god was angry with you or because you were bad. The eclipse wasn't god. The flood or tornado wasn't god. Glass the invention wasn't god or magic as our ancestors believed.. The hot air balloon they invented in the 1700's wasn't god. None of the things you thought were god were.

So you are basically swallowing an ancient superstition that our uneducated ancestors passed on to us. Nice.

See. Justin is right. You atheists are superstitious. None of your meanderings hold up under the scrutiny of the objective facts or logic of human cognition.

No on escapes "The Seven Things"!

Theists came up with this. Theists came up with that.

No, gullible one, superstitious one, self-deluded one, pseudoscientific one, pseudo-philosophical one, pseudo-theological one, pathologically irrational one, make-things-up-out-of-thin-air one: it is you who lives in a world of dreams and magic. No one escapes "The Seven Things"! They are in your mind just like they're in everybody else's mind! And these objective, absolute and universal facts of human cognition falsify everything you just spouted.

Bottom line: this is why the atheists on this thread will not honestly and openly concede the obvious, what we all know to be true logically, as they belie every doctrine of these superstitious, dogmatically obtuse fanatics.

Every time the atheist opens his yap and declares "God does not exist!", in that one statement alone, he necessarily acknowledges that every one of "The Seven Things" are objectively true for all human beings!

The idea of God is a figment of human culture, a mere human invention, imagination run amuck, not, at the very least a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition?!

Really?

Talk about pseudoscientific claptrap! The very first artifact of belief, the foundation, for everything else the atheist spouts as if from on high (a tiny little, finite mind of a god in the gap fallacy), is sheer fairy dust, a unicorn, a spaghetti monster, a boogie man.

Say "God doesn't exist" again! I dare you! Say it again!

Tell us again about how this idea that's obviously hardwired in your head has no substance behind it. How did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? Where did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? How could an idea that's obviously hardwired in your head be a mere figment of human culture?

Quite obviously superstitious one, pseudoscientific one: it's always been an artifact of human culture because the idea is a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition!

Say "God doesn't exist" again. Concede the fact of "The Seven Things" in that one statement alone again!


Folks are turning the ABCs of a very simple matter into rocket science. Everybody with a sound, developmentally mature mind knows or apprehends these things about the problems of existence and origin:

The Seven Things
1. We exist!
2. The cosmological order exists!
3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!
4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!
5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!
6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!​

Those are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for His existence. Take the leap of faith now or don't. It's your decision, not mine.

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow that or will even try because they've made up their minds about things they know nothing about or have never thought about.

But what all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the reality of the construct of God would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of being unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite minds are in no position to rationally presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be an apriority of a purely subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness and, therefore, absolute perfection.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do apprehend the meaning of a highest conceivable standard of perfection whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent, i.e., non-contingent, sentient Being of infinitely absolute perfection!

Earlier it was wrongfully asserted, in my opinion, that the objective standard was not biblical. Well, goody, but even if that were true, that would be the interposition of a purely subjective standard of belief that is not going to wash with any person who recognizes the objectively uncontestable standard that doesn't beg the question. In short, objectively, it's the only standard that leaves the matter open-ended without any conceivable allegation of preconceived bias.
___________________________

Note: Both the Bible and the objectively apparent facts of human cognition strongly recommend that God is a Being of infinite greatness/perfection.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

The idea of god existing in our minds =\= the idea of god is "biologically hardwired in our minds."

Surely, you know there is a difference there. Nice try on the "okie doke," but developmentally mature minds (sic) don't fall for shit like that.

See. Justin is right. You atheists are superstitious. None of your meanderings hold up under the scrutiny of the objective facts or logic of human cognition.

No on escapes "The Seven Things"!

Theists came up with this. Theists came up with that.

No, gullible one, superstitious one, self-deluded one, pseudoscientific one, pseudo-philosophical one, pseudo-theological one, pathologically irrational one, make-things-up-out-of-thin-air one: it is you who lives in a world of dreams and magic. No one escapes "The Seven Things"! They are in your mind just like they're in everybody else's mind! And these objective, absolute and universal facts of human cognition falsify everything you just spouted.

Bottom line: this is why the atheists on this thread will not honestly and openly concede the obvious, what we all know to be true logically, as they belie every doctrine of these superstitious, dogmatically obtuse fanatics.

Every time the atheist opens his yap and declares "God does not exist!", in that one statement alone, he necessarily acknowledges that every one of "The Seven Things" are objectively true for all human beings!

The idea of God is a figment of human culture, a mere human invention, imagination run amuck, not, at the very least a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition?!

Really?

Talk about pseudoscientific claptrap! The very first artifact of belief, the foundation, for everything else the atheist spouts as if from on high (a tiny little, finite mind of a god in the gap fallacy), is sheer fairy dust, a unicorn, a spaghetti monster, a boogie man.

Say "God doesn't exist" again! I dare you! Say it again!

Tell us again about how this idea that's obviously hardwired in your head has no substance behind it. How did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? Where did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? How could an idea that's obviously hardwired in your head be a mere figment of human culture?

Quite obviously superstitious one, pseudoscientific one: it's always been an artifact of human culture because the idea is a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition!

Say "God doesn't exist" again. Concede the fact of "The Seven Things" in that one statement alone again!


Folks are turning the ABCs of a very simple matter into rocket science. Everybody with a sound, developmentally mature mind knows or apprehends these things about the problems of existence and origin:

The Seven Things
1. We exist!
2. The cosmological order exists!
3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!
4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!
5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!
6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Those are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for His existence. Take the leap of faith now or don't. It's your decision, not mine.

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow that or will even try because they've made up their minds about things they know nothing about or have never thought about.

But what all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the reality of the construct of God would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of being unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite minds are in no position to rationally presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be an apriority of a purely subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness and, therefore, absolute perfection.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do apprehend the meaning of a highest conceivable standard of perfection whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent, i.e., non-contingent, sentient Being of infinitely absolute perfection!

Earlier it was wrongfully asserted, in my opinion, that the objective standard was not biblical. Well, goody, but even if that were true, that would be the interposition of a purely subjective standard of belief that is not going to wash with any person who recognizes the objectively uncontestable standard that doesn't beg the question. In short, objectively, it's the only standard that leaves the matter open-ended without any conceivable allegation of preconceived bias.
___________________________

Note: Both the Bible and the objectively apparent facts of human cognition strongly recommend that God is a Being of infinite greatness/perfection.

 

[Hollie]

We came up with that theory a long time ago when we weren't that educated. We were also very curious, superstitious animals and we don't like not knowing what we don't know.

One thing we don't know is how we all got here. But theists came up with an answer. Not a very good one. Not one based on proof but on speculation. Bottom line is all you know and believe is that something must have created us. That's all you are really saying. But that's not true. At least it doesn't have to be a "god".

And when you say "god", do you mean "something" that created us or is it the god in the bible or koran? Do you think god ever visited any human on this planet?

If the answer is yes then I guess you are too gullible to even talk sense to.

But if you are talking about a generic "something" that created us? I can tell you that science has given that question a lot of thought and so far they have not found a god yet. They have figured out all the things you guys use to think were god ended up not being god. You didn't get cancer because god was angry with you or because you were bad. The eclipse wasn't god. The flood or tornado wasn't god. Glass the invention wasn't god or magic as our ancestors believed.. The hot air balloon they invented in the 1700's wasn't god. None of the things you thought were god were.

So you are basically swallowing an ancient superstition that our uneducated ancestors passed on to us. Nice.

See. Justin is right. You atheists are superstitious. None of your meanderings hold up under the scrutiny of the objective facts or logic of human cognition.

No on escapes "The Seven Things"!

Theists came up with this. Theists came up with that.

No, gullible one, superstitious one, self-deluded one, pseudoscientific one, pseudo-philosophical one, pseudo-theological one, pathologically irrational one, make-things-up-out-of-thin-air one: it is you who lives in a world of dreams and magic. No one escapes "The Seven Things"! They are in your mind just like they're in everybody else's mind! And these objective, absolute and universal facts of human cognition falsify everything you just spouted.

Bottom line: this is why the atheists on this thread will not honestly and openly concede the obvious, what we all know to be true logically, as they belie every doctrine of these superstitious, dogmatically obtuse fanatics.

Every time the atheist opens his yap and declares "God does not exist!", in that one statement alone, he necessarily acknowledges that every one of "The Seven Things" are objectively true for all human beings!

The idea of God is a figment of human culture, a mere human invention, imagination run amuck, not, at the very least a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition?!

Really?

Talk about pseudoscientific claptrap! The very first artifact of belief, the foundation, for everything else the atheist spouts as if from on high (a tiny little, finite mind of a god in the gap fallacy), is sheer fairy dust, a unicorn, a spaghetti monster, a boogie man.

Say "God doesn't exist" again! I dare you! Say it again!

Tell us again about how this idea that's obviously hardwired in your head has no substance behind it. How did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? Where did you get this idea that has no substance behind it? How could an idea that's obviously hardwired in your head be a mere figment of human culture?

Quite obviously superstitious one, pseudoscientific one: it's always been an artifact of human culture because the idea is a bio-neurologically hardwired fact of human cognition!

Say "God doesn't exist" again. Concede the fact of "The Seven Things" in that one statement alone again!


Folks are turning the ABCs of a very simple matter into rocket science. Everybody with a sound, developmentally mature mind knows or apprehends these things about the problems of existence and origin:

The Seven Things
1. We exist!
2. The cosmological order exists!
3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!
4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!
5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!
6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!
7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!​

Those are the facts of human cognition regarding the problems of existence and origin. The objective facts of human cognition report, you decide. God just might be waiting for you on the other side of that leap of faith. There's plenty of rational and empirical evidence for His existence. Take the leap of faith now or don't. It's your decision, not mine.

All the rest of the things I've talked about go to the apprehensible details of #4. Not everybody can follow that or will even try because they've made up their minds about things they know nothing about or have never thought about.

But what all can and should logically understand, that which is self-evident, regarding #4: to assume that the reality of the construct of God would be anything less than the very highest conceivable standard of being unjustifiably begs the question. From an objective standpoint, finite minds are in no position to rationally presuppose anything less, as such a thing would necessarily be an apriority of a purely subjective standard of belief. An objective standard presupposes nothing less than infinitely unparalleled greatness and, therefore, absolute perfection.

It doesn’t matter that we can't comprehend the totality of that. We can and do apprehend the meaning of a highest conceivable standard of perfection whatever that may entail. In other words, logically, nothing created could be greater than the Creator of all other things, and what is the highest conceivable standard of being in this regard: an eternally and transcendentally self-subsistent, i.e., non-contingent, sentient Being of infinitely absolute perfection!

Earlier it was wrongfully asserted, in my opinion, that the objective standard was not biblical. Well, goody, but even if that were true, that would be the interposition of a purely subjective standard of belief that is not going to wash with any person who recognizes the objectively uncontestable standard that doesn't beg the question. In short, objectively, it's the only standard that leaves the matter open-ended without any conceivable allegation of preconceived bias.
___________________________

Note: Both the Bible and the objectively apparent facts of human cognition strongly recommend that God is a Being of infinite greatness/perfection.

See, I was right. Your arguments are so thoroughly bankrupt, you can't defend them. You're reduced to cutting and pasting the same tired slogans , cliches' and entire paragraphs of your refuted blathering.

 

[G.T.]

1. We exist!

Sure we do. That doesn't presuppose sentient creation as opposed to Natural & eternal processes.

2. The cosmological order exists!

Sure it does, but we don't fully understand it yet. In fact, the very top experts in the field would agree that we barely know dick in the grand scope of things.

3. The idea that God exists as the Creator of everything else that exists, exists in our minds! So the possibility that God exists cannot be logically ruled out!

Not necessarily biologically hardwired though. It could also be in our minds simply because "we've heard of it from other people."

This is, in effect, meaningless bumblejargain.

4. If God does exist, He would necessarily be, logically, a Being of unparalleled greatness!

Doesn't matter. The *if* is a pretty large qualifier there.

Try this on for size: if eternal non-sentient external multi-verses created our universe, thus our knowledge, any argument launched against them proves they are true! (sic)

/TAG is the dumbest shit ever

5. Currently, science cannot verify whether or not God exists!

whether or not. meaning? Meaning, NOTHING. Does nothing to advance the conversation in either direction.

6. It is not logically possible to say or think that God (the Creator) doesn't exist, whether He actually exists outside the logic of our minds or not (See Posts 2599 and 2600)!

This is not a fact. Calling this a fact means that you do not respect the ideals of Reason. It's not impossible to "think that god doesn't exist." This is a mere opinion. You have to presuppose god exists in order for it to be impossible to "think that god doesn't exist."

Does everyone presuppose god actually exists? No, so this is a bunch of horseshit on your part.

7. All six of the above things are objectively, universally and logically true for human knowers/thinkers!

Except, they're not. You don't respect what "objectively" means, so you're not a very respected "thinker" from my vantage point.



You avoid every post which really calls into question, in a valid way, the "TAG" argument as a proof.

It is viciously circular and begs the question, and an "argument launched against it" does not "prove its true!!" unless you DOUBLY beg the question. Since the argu(er) AGAINST it does not presuppose God as the source of Truth, using "truth," for them, is not asserting that god exists. This is why you're called a blow hard because it is mere hubris.

Dodge that, though.

 

[G.T.]

[

Justin, your facts of logic are not facts of logic, at least what you glean from them. It is presupper bullshit.

In logic, you cannot make a proof if your premises are not absolute.

The premise 'god created knowledge' is not absolute because:

1. Existence hasn't been proven to have been created.
2. Knowledge hasn't been proven to have been created, and there been shown no rational dismissal of 'existence before sentience.'




Want to see who's been dipping, ducking, and dodging? OK. Pony up. Explain to the room how 'god created knowledge' can be universally accepted (axiomatic) when the above two points have not been ruled out and when so many atheists and agnostics do exist.





Or, keep on with the tired ad hom crutch as we know you will.

There's a reason for that. Vampires don't see their reflection

Presupper dipduckdodge[/QUOTE]
presupper, dipduckdodge.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

At some point theists went from trying to use logic to prove God exists to lying about him visiting them. Why did they start lying? Maybe your arguments don't hold water? Because I have heard many scientists talk about the possible reasons why our universe is here, how long it too, the process, the evolution, the mind blowing amount of time that existed from when the big bang happened and us puny humans appeared on earth. Were Dionosaurs gods mistake?

Anyways, you are trying to prove that "something" created all this. Ok maybe something did. Why does that something have to be a god? And why the lies? Why lie and say god visited your ancestors? I know! It's because will all 7 "truths" you keep putting out there as proofs, even though they aint, even with all those 7 points, that still doesn't prove a god that cares about you put you here, cares about you and is waiting for you in heaven. That's a dumb pathetic humans wishful thinking. Grow up. And point number two is wrong:

Complexity/Order proves god exists.
The Teleological argument, or Argument from Design, is a non sequitur. Complexity does not imply design and does not prove the existence of a god. Even if design could be established we cannot conclude anything about the nature of the designer (Aliens?). Furthermore, many biological systems have obvious defects consistent with the predictions of evolution by means of natural selection.

The appearance of complexity and order in the universe is the result of spontaneous self-organization and pattern formation, caused by chaotic feedback between simple physical laws and rules. All the complexity of the universe, all its apparent richness, even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years. Current scientific theories are able to clearly explain how complexity and order arise in physical systems. Any lack of understanding does not immediately imply ‘god’.

Bull! I've already falsified that rash of nonsense on this very thread! The atheist's claim about what the Teleological Argument asserts is utterly false, a straw man. Let me know when you're ready to deal with the actual thrust of the argument. Why are you still lying about the nature of "The Seven Things", arguing against a straw man?

Tell me something, little man, why do you always attack straw men? Don't you have the balls to face the real article and refute that? Of course not, because the real deals would compel you to state the obvious.