Israel & iran

[JStone]

There is a young, well educated pro democracy movement in Iran. Their goal is to oust the dictator, the mullahs & the ayatolahs & bring back the pride that was Persia under Zoroastrian rule.

Just curious, would you still support the pro-democracy movement if whoever's elected still wants to nuke Israel?
(The Shah's looking pretty good about now, lol)

Good point. Everyone supported democracy in Palestine. Then the wrong people got elected and the support for democracy went out the window.

Palestine is Israel. The Romans invented "palestine" to rename Israel under the Roman Empire.

Israel is a democracy.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There is a young, well educated pro democracy movement in Iran. Their goal is to oust the dictator, the mullahs & the ayatolahs & bring back the pride that was Persia under Zoroastrian rule.

Just curious, would you still support the pro-democracy movement if whoever's elected still wants to nuke Israel?
(The Shah's looking pretty good about now, lol)

Good point. Everyone supported democracy in Palestine. Then the wrong people got elected and the support for democracy went out the window.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections. Neither condition holds true with the Palestinian Arabs, so while you may claim some democratic gestures or aspirations for them, you cannot legitimately claim they have a democracy nor would you support it if it meant Hamas would lose power.

Supporting democracy does not mean you have to support the policies of the winner of an election.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Just curious, would you still support the pro-democracy movement if whoever's elected still wants to nuke Israel?
(The Shah's looking pretty good about now, lol)

Good point. Everyone supported democracy in Palestine. Then the wrong people got elected and the support for democracy went out the window.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections. Neither condition holds true with the Palestinian Arabs, so while you may claim some democratic gestures or aspirations for them, you cannot legitimately claim they have a democracy nor would you support it if it meant Hamas would lose power.

Supporting democracy does not mean you have to support the policies of the winner of an election.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections.

That is true. However it was not the Palestinians who screwed up the democracy there. After Fatah lost the elections they wanted to stay in power. With the assistance of the US and Israel, Fatah attempted a coup against the elected government. They failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank. There has not been an election since.

 

[JStone]

Good point. Everyone supported democracy in Palestine. Then the wrong people got elected and the support for democracy went out the window.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections. Neither condition holds true with the Palestinian Arabs, so while you may claim some democratic gestures or aspirations for them, you cannot legitimately claim they have a democracy nor would you support it if it meant Hamas would lose power.

Supporting democracy does not mean you have to support the policies of the winner of an election.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections.

That is true. However it was not the Palestinians who screwed up the democracy there. After Fatah lost the elections they wanted to stay in power. With the assistance of the US and Israel, Fatah attempted a coup against the elected government. They failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank. There has not been an election since.

Gaza is democratic?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVWk8qjsU8]Hamas Imposing Sharia Law In Gaza - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wolverine1984]

Good point. Everyone supported democracy in Palestine. Then the wrong people got elected and the support for democracy went out the window.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections. Neither condition holds true with the Palestinian Arabs, so while you may claim some democratic gestures or aspirations for them, you cannot legitimately claim they have a democracy nor would you support it if it meant Hamas would lose power.

Supporting democracy does not mean you have to support the policies of the winner of an election.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections.

That is true. However it was not the Palestinians who screwed up the democracy there. After Fatah lost the elections they wanted to stay in power. With the assistance of the US and Israel, Fatah attempted a coup against the elected government. They failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank. There has not been an election since.

Your real funny , so suddenly Fatah are not Palestinians anymore ?
There is no evidence of Israel's or the US involvement, and even if they were involved Fatah are still Palestinians. Instead of conversing they chose to fight with the Hamas.

Fatah & Hamas had disagreement and instead of conversing they started shooting at each other , that doesn't happen in a free and democratic society.

What's more Hamas are imposing sharia law in Gaza , which is the opposite of democracy and freedom.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections. Neither condition holds true with the Palestinian Arabs, so while you may claim some democratic gestures or aspirations for them, you cannot legitimately claim they have a democracy nor would you support it if it meant Hamas would lose power.

Supporting democracy does not mean you have to support the policies of the winner of an election.

There is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. To have democracy you have to hold elections as scheduled and the losers have to respect the results of the elections.

That is true. However it was not the Palestinians who screwed up the democracy there. After Fatah lost the elections they wanted to stay in power. With the assistance of the US and Israel, Fatah attempted a coup against the elected government. They failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank. There has not been an election since.

Your real funny , so suddenly Fatah are not Palestinians anymore ?
There is no evidence of Israel's or the US involvement, and even if they were involved Fatah are still Palestinians. Instead of conversing they chose to fight with the Hamas.

Fatah & Hamas had disagreement and instead of conversing they started shooting at each other , that doesn't happen in a free and democratic society.

What's more Hamas are imposing sharia law in Gaza , which is the opposite of democracy and freedom.

Fatah and the PA are the Vichy government in Palestine. And yes, they did attempt a coup in Gaza with the assistance of the US and Israel. And yes, they still rule in the West Bank even though they lost the elections.

Funny, nobody questions how that happened.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That is true. However it was not the Palestinians who screwed up the democracy there. After Fatah lost the elections they wanted to stay in power. With the assistance of the US and Israel, Fatah attempted a coup against the elected government. They failed in Gaza but succeeded in the West Bank. There has not been an election since.

Your real funny , so suddenly Fatah are not Palestinians anymore ?
There is no evidence of Israel's or the US involvement, and even if they were involved Fatah are still Palestinians. Instead of conversing they chose to fight with the Hamas.

Fatah & Hamas had disagreement and instead of conversing they started shooting at each other , that doesn't happen in a free and democratic society.

What's more Hamas are imposing sharia law in Gaza , which is the opposite of democracy and freedom.

Fatah and the PA are the Vichy government in Palestine. And yes, they did attempt a coup in Gaza with the assistance of the US and Israel. And yes, they still rule in the West Bank even though they lost the elections.

Funny, nobody questions how that happened.

Bottom line is that there is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Your real funny , so suddenly Fatah are not Palestinians anymore ?
There is no evidence of Israel's or the US involvement, and even if they were involved Fatah are still Palestinians. Instead of conversing they chose to fight with the Hamas.

Fatah & Hamas had disagreement and instead of conversing they started shooting at each other , that doesn't happen in a free and democratic society.

What's more Hamas are imposing sharia law in Gaza , which is the opposite of democracy and freedom.

Fatah and the PA are the Vichy government in Palestine. And yes, they did attempt a coup in Gaza with the assistance of the US and Israel. And yes, they still rule in the West Bank even though they lost the elections.

Funny, nobody questions how that happened.

Bottom line is that there is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

 

[JStone]

Fatah and the PA are the Vichy government in Palestine. And yes, they did attempt a coup in Gaza with the assistance of the US and Israel. And yes, they still rule in the West Bank even though they lost the elections.

Funny, nobody questions how that happened.

Bottom line is that there is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

The West Bank that the Jews controlled dating back 3000 years when the land was known as Judea and Samaria, before the arab foreigners invaded Israel and changed the name.

Hamas Minister of the Interior Fathi Hammad, Al-Hekma TV [Egypt]

Brothers, there are 1.8 million of us in Gaza.Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots and every Palestinian in Gaza and throughout Palestine can prove his Arab roots--whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere.

Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that.

More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called Al-Masri [Egyptian]

Brothers, half of the Palestiniains are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis

Who are the Palestinians? we have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. we are Arabs. We are Muslims

Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad Slams Egypt over Fuel Shortage in Gaza Strip, and Says: "Half of the Palestinians Are Egyptians and the Other Half Are Saudis"

 

[toomuchtime_]

Fatah and the PA are the Vichy government in Palestine. And yes, they did attempt a coup in Gaza with the assistance of the US and Israel. And yes, they still rule in the West Bank even though they lost the elections.

Funny, nobody questions how that happened.

Bottom line is that there is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. Keep in mind that the only two elections the Palestinian Arabs held were forced upon them by the US, and since the US lost influence in Gaza no further elections have been held.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Bottom line is that there is no democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. Keep in mind that the only two elections the Palestinian Arabs held were forced upon them by the US, and since the US lost influence in Gaza no further elections have been held.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

 

[JStone]

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. Keep in mind that the only two elections the Palestinian Arabs held were forced upon them by the US, and since the US lost influence in Gaza no further elections have been held.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

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P F Tinmore Rep Power: 0
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,512
"PF Tinmore is off the scale

Former Gazan Nonie Darwish, Human Rights Activist, Founder, Arabs For Israel
An Arab-Made Misery - WSJ.com

International donors pledged almost $4.5 billion in aid for Gaza earlier this month. It has been very painful for me to witness over the past few years the deteriorating humanitarian situation in that narrow strip where I lived as a child in the 1950s.

It is Hamas, an Islamist terror organization supported by Iran, which is using and abusing Palestinians... While Hamas leaders hid in the well-stocked bunkers and tunnels they prepared before they provoked Israel into attacking them, Palestinian civilians were exposed and caught in the deadly crossfire between Hamas and Israeli soldiers.

Both Israel and Egypt are fearful of terrorist infiltration from Gaza -- all the more so since Hamas took over -- and have always maintained tight controls over their borders with Gaza. The Palestinians continue to endure hardships because Gaza continues to serve as the launching pad for terror attacks against Israeli citizens. Those attacks come in the form of Hamas missiles that indiscriminately target Israeli kindergartens, homes and businesses.

And Hamas continued these attacks more than two years after Israel withdrew from Gaza in the hope that this step would begin the process of building a Palestinian state, eventually leading to a peaceful, two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There was no "cycle of violence" then, no justification for anything other than peace and prosperity. But instead, Hamas chose Islamic jihad. Gazans' and Israelis' hopes have been met with misery for Palestinians and missiles for Israelis.

Hamas, an Iran proxy, has become a danger not only to Israel, but also to Palestinians as well as to neighboring Arab states, who fear the spread of radical Islam could destabilize their countries.

Arabs claim they love the Palestinian people, but they seem more interested in sacrificing them. If they really loved their Palestinian brethren, they'd pressure Hamas to stop firing missiles at Israel. In the longer term, the Arab world must end the Palestinians' refugee status and thereby their desire to harm Israel. It's time for the 22 Arab countries to open their borders and absorb the Palestinians of Gaza who wish to start a new life. It is time for the Arab world to truly help the Palestinians, not use them.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Not as long as the US and Israel control the west Bank.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. Keep in mind that the only two elections the Palestinian Arabs held were forced upon them by the US, and since the US lost influence in Gaza no further elections have been held.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

The US did not trash the elections, it opposed the policies of the group, Hamas, that won. Supporting democracy does not mean supporting the policies of the party that wins the election. Had the US retained influence in Gaza, there would have been new elections three years later and the Palestinian Arabs would have had the chance to reconsider their decisions. As it is, the elections scheduled for May will probably not take place because of Hamas' opposition. The Palestinian Arabs do not have democracy because they are clearly not capable of managing such a system.

 

[P F Tinmore]

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs. Keep in mind that the only two elections the Palestinian Arabs held were forced upon them by the US, and since the US lost influence in Gaza no further elections have been held.

On the contrary, if the US controlled both the West Bank and Gaza, there would be democracy among the Palestinian Arabs.

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

The US did not trash the elections, it opposed the policies of the group, Hamas, that won. Supporting democracy does not mean supporting the policies of the party that wins the election. Had the US retained influence in Gaza, there would have been new elections three years later and the Palestinian Arabs would have had the chance to reconsider their decisions. As it is, the elections scheduled for May will probably not take place because of Hamas' opposition. The Palestinian Arabs do not have democracy because they are clearly not capable of managing such a system.

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

 

[JStone]

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

The US did not trash the elections, it opposed the policies of the group, Hamas, that won. Supporting democracy does not mean supporting the policies of the party that wins the election. Had the US retained influence in Gaza, there would have been new elections three years later and the Palestinian Arabs would have had the chance to reconsider their decisions. As it is, the elections scheduled for May will probably not take place because of Hamas' opposition. The Palestinian Arabs do not have democracy because they are clearly not capable of managing such a system.

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

Pestilinians are the most fucked up losers in the history of the world

 

[toomuchtime_]

No there wouldn't. They already tried that once and the wrong people won. So the US went in and trashed the whole thing. There can be no elections until the elected government regains control.

The US did not trash the elections, it opposed the policies of the group, Hamas, that won. Supporting democracy does not mean supporting the policies of the party that wins the election. Had the US retained influence in Gaza, there would have been new elections three years later and the Palestinian Arabs would have had the chance to reconsider their decisions. As it is, the elections scheduled for May will probably not take place because of Hamas' opposition. The Palestinian Arabs do not have democracy because they are clearly not capable of managing such a system.

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

More bullshit. The elections that you claim, dishonestly, give the Hamas government legitimacy were held under exactly those conditions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The US did not trash the elections, it opposed the policies of the group, Hamas, that won. Supporting democracy does not mean supporting the policies of the party that wins the election. Had the US retained influence in Gaza, there would have been new elections three years later and the Palestinian Arabs would have had the chance to reconsider their decisions. As it is, the elections scheduled for May will probably not take place because of Hamas' opposition. The Palestinian Arabs do not have democracy because they are clearly not capable of managing such a system.

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

More bullshit. The elections that you claim, dishonestly, give the Hamas government legitimacy were held under exactly those conditions.

All international observers judged the last elections to be free and fair. The polls were saying that Fatah was going to sweep the elections like they always had. So there was little intervention. The rest is history.

Since then Abbas has illegally changed the election laws that would eliminate almost anyone but Fatah from running. Of course other parties including Hamas reject having elections under those circumstances. There will be no fair elections as long as the illegal government in the West Bank is calling the shots.

 

[JStone]

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

More bullshit. The elections that you claim, dishonestly, give the Hamas government legitimacy were held under exactly those conditions.

All international observers judged the last elections to be free and fair. The polls were saying that Fatah was going to sweep the elections like they always had. So there was little intervention. The rest is history.

Since then Abbas has illegally changed the election laws that would eliminate almost anyone but Fatah from running. Of course other parties including Hamas reject having elections under those circumstances. There will be no fair elections as long as the illegal government in the West Bank is calling the shots.

Gaza democracy

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GncVr9hNZGM]Hamas bans Gaza's lingerie displays - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toomuchtime_]

If they have elections now with the illegal government in the West Bank calling the shots they will only be a sham. That is why they are not being held.

More bullshit. The elections that you claim, dishonestly, give the Hamas government legitimacy were held under exactly those conditions.

All international observers judged the last elections to be free and fair. The polls were saying that Fatah was going to sweep the elections like they always had. So there was little intervention. The rest is history.

Since then Abbas has illegally changed the election laws that would eliminate almost anyone but Fatah from running. Of course other parties including Hamas reject having elections under those circumstances. There will be no fair elections as long as the illegal government in the West Bank is calling the shots.

There have been no changes in the election laws that would eliminate other candidates and international observers could be present if Hamas wanted them. The fact is that Hamas has refused to allow any outside observers, including Palestinian Arabs not affiliated with Hamas. Clearly, free and fair elections could and would be held if not for Hamas' opposition to them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

More bullshit. The elections that you claim, dishonestly, give the Hamas government legitimacy were held under exactly those conditions.

All international observers judged the last elections to be free and fair. The polls were saying that Fatah was going to sweep the elections like they always had. So there was little intervention. The rest is history.

Since then Abbas has illegally changed the election laws that would eliminate almost anyone but Fatah from running. Of course other parties including Hamas reject having elections under those circumstances. There will be no fair elections as long as the illegal government in the West Bank is calling the shots.

There have been no changes in the election laws that would eliminate other candidates and international observers could be present if Hamas wanted them. The fact is that Hamas has refused to allow any outside observers, including Palestinian Arabs not affiliated with Hamas. Clearly, free and fair elections could and would be held if not for Hamas' opposition to them.

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