Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[P F Tinmore]

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

Are you for real, what was seen as the Government of palestine from 1922 to 1948. There was no arab muslim Government in place was there, no Jewish government and no Christian government. Just the appointed mandatory Government of palestine

Indeed, and that is how Britain left it. Britain failed to do anything but start a hundred year war.

You need to learn history. The Brits didn't start a "hundred year war" in the islamist occupied territories. It was the Islamist Entity that started wars in 1948, 1967, 1973.... why don't you research the history and let me know if I missed any.

Sure.

Another duck because you dont have a clue, so you resort to islamonazi propaganda talking points

Would you care to refute anything he said?

Of course not.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So, was it or was it not the Islamist Entity™ that started wars in 1948, 1967, 1973... and others I might have missed.

It was not. You are starting your history in the middle of the war.

YES IT WAS

Only if you start history in the middle.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don't get what you are driving at.

Of course you don't. It doesn't match your Israeli propaganda.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Apples and Oranges. You have not posted a proper question, thus you are looking for a flawed answer.

Mid-night, 14/15 May 1948 was a terminator between the end of the Non-International Armed Conflict (NIAC) and the beginning of the International Armed Conflict (IAC).

The definition of an IAC is found in Common Article 2 to the Fourth Geneva Conventions (GCIV). It states that the rules of IAC apply to “all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties . . . . “ Thus, an IAC can only be between two or more states.

After to 14/15 May 1948:

• Israel is a "High Contracting Party (HCP)" having declared independence.
• All the Arab League participants: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, and Egypt, are individually HCP.
• The Arab Palestinians are not constituents of a HCP.
​

Prior to 14/15 May 1948:

• There is no State of Israel. Thus a non-existent Israel could not be a HCP.
• There is no Sate of Palestine. Thus the a non-existent Arab Palestinian State could not be a HCP.
​

THUS, by international Humanitarian Law (IHL) the Arab-Jewish conflict in the territory subject to the Mandate COULD NOT BE an IAC; neither being a HCP. An IAC can only be between two or more HCPs.

HOWEVER, after the Declaration of Independence and recognition by at least one nation, Israel is a HCP, being invaded by elements of several HCPs of the Arab League; making it an IAC.

Therefore:

• Prior to 14/15 May 1948, the Arab-Jewish Conflict in Palestine, as defined by the Allied Powers, was a NAIC.
• After 14/15 May 1948, the Arab-Jewish Conflict becomes an IAC.
​

In 1948, who pointed the gun at who? I believe it was the Arab League that initiated the Armed Aggression.

Don't try to start history in the middle.

(COMMENT)

YOU are wrong!

The Arab Invasion by the Arab League marks the beginning of the NIAC. It is not the middle of the history.

Most Respectfully,
R

Like I have always said: you believe that the Palestinians are exempt from universal rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel is a HCP, being invaded by elements of several HCPs of the Arab League; making it an IAC.

OK, but Israel was not invaded.

 

[Hollie]

So, was it or was it not the Islamist Entity™ that started wars in 1948, 1967, 1973... and others I might have missed.

It was not. You are starting your history in the middle of the war.

YES IT WAS

Only if you start history in the middle.

Already addressed. You're befuddled by events and timelines.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it is entirely the WRONG interpretation.

(COMMENT)

You get this wrong every single time, as if repeating it over and over again will somehow change it.

• Article 16 is in the first Part and first Section of the Treaty. It is called: "TERRITORIAL CLAUSES."

§ This section deals with the disposition of territory for which the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic forfeits. In this case, ALL the territory outside the frontiers of the Turkish Republic. The only exception is territorial arrangements covered by special arrangements arising from some previously honored diplomatic relations.
​

• Article 30 is in the first Part and second Section of the Treaty. It is called "NATIONALITY."

§ This section deals with people who the question of nationality might be considered ambiguous under the operation of its law prior to this treaty. It insures that there si a uniform understanding among the various Mandatories as to how certain people are addressed. Although Article 30 mentions no particular territory, in its application relative to the territory under the Mandate of Palestine applies --- as the nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred: The Government of Palestine. That would be from the Mesopotamian Border to the Mediterranean Sea. The use of the word "State" in this case, insures that the citizenship passes into the follow-on Sovereignty as defined by the Mandatory. In this case, the population East of the Jordan River would become citizens of Trans-Jordan when Britain (the Mandatory) formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state on 15 May 1923 under the leadership of the first Emir (Abdullah).
​

Section I, Article 16, does not determine citizenship, and Section II, Article 30 does not impact the Rights and Title of the Territory. Article 30 says which citizenship the people are assigned based on the territorial determination on Article 16. In the case of Palestine, that authority was delineated in (first) the Palestine Order in Council --- then the Citizenship Order of 1925.

The Territorial Government drives Nationality, NOT the other way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual, you are full of shit Rocco. The Citizenship Order was enacted by the British Government, not by the (territorial) Government of Palestine. Interestingly, this was the only such citizenship order enacted by Great Britain in any of their mandates or territories at that time.

Are you for real, what was seen as the Government of palestine from 1922 to 1948. There was no arab muslim Government in place was there, no Jewish government and no Christian government. Just the appointed mandatory Government of palestine

Indeed, and that is how Britain left it. Britain failed to do anything but start a hundred year war.

BULLSHIT as Britain did what it could under its remit, it was the arab muslims that refused to talk so they lost. The Jews followed the rules and gained a nation

The Palestinians contacted Britain many times but were ignored. It was Britain who refused to negotiate.

Those "Poor oppressed Arabs-Moslems". Incompetence on their part par is always someone else's fault.

 

[montelatici]

Well, the facts confirm that the British were at fault, dear little Hollie.

 

[Hollie]

Well, the facts confirm that the British were at fault, dear little Hollie.

Not surprisingly, your claim to "facts" are always limited to your goofy ".... because I say so", nonsense. As expected, your whining leaves us with Arab-Moslem ineptitude and incompetence is always someone else's fault.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

At fault for what?

You are implying that the British had a duty or responsibility that is claim to have been exercised unsatisfactory.

Well, the facts confirm that the British were at fault, dear little Hollie.

(COMMENT)

Don't be ambiguous! I want to understand this?

What exactly is the allegation! Exactly what did the Mandatory fail to negotiate? And under what binding directive required the British to negotiate?

Ny understand was that the Arab Palestinian rejected the opportunity to participate and cooperated with the British in the development of self-governing programs, And please, don't drag-up those old 1922 Exchange of Letters with Downing Street.

Where does some binding document require the Treaty Parties representing the Title and Rights to the territory to negotiate with the Arabs; amd over what issues?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

The British elected not to negotiate with the Christians and Muslims of Palestine in the development of self-governing programs. The Covenant of the League of Nations, article 22 required that the Mandatory provide the tutelage to enable the "inhabitants" to achieve self-government. What in the hell do you not understand, dimwit?

 

[Shusha]

This effort to prevent the Christian and Muslim Palestinians for exercising this right was adopted by the United Nations at the end of the Mandate through the Partition Plan which placed 1/3 of the Christians and Muslims (over 400 thousand) under Jew rule with no possible way to exercise self-determination.

Wait. What?

There were a million Jewish people placed under Arab Muslim rule with no possible way to exercise self-determination by the formation of the States of Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon. Do you know how the Arabs solved that problem? They expelled them. The Jewish people, taking a moral high ground, refused to do that and have instead attempted to build a society which is inclusive and equal.

What is your point here? That people CAN'T be under the rule of another ethnic group? How the hell do you propose to solve that problem?

I mean, seriously, the NERVE that there would be Muslims under "Jewish" rule and being forced to live in a "Jewish" country. I call foul. How DARE they ever suggest such a thing.

 

[Shusha]

The British elected not to negotiate with the Christians and Muslims of Palestine in the development of self-governing programs. The Covenant of the League of Nations, article 22 required that the Mandatory provide the tutelage to enable the "inhabitants" to achieve self-government. What in the hell do you not understand, dimwit?

Wait. Applied equally, that means the LoN was required to provide tutelage to enable the Jewish inhabitants of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq to develop their own self-governments. There should be FIVE Jewish States and not just one.

Well, let's get on that immediately. When do we start removing Arab settlers from Jewish land in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq?

 

[Shusha]

The sad part is that you actually believe that crap. Here is a brief overview of the problem. Of course I would happily discuss anything she says that you feel is not true.

So when a Syrian immigrates to Palestine, he magically becomes a Palestinian and everyone is excited to see him. He even becomes a national hero.

But we refuse to live next to a JEW!


I'm sorry, but how, exactly, does that video support your case? It seems to support mine in spades.

 

[Shusha]

Israel is a HCP, being invaded by elements of several HCPs of the Arab League; making it an IAC.

OK, but Israel was not invaded.

You're kidding, yes? Jordan and Egypt used military force to take and hold territory clearly not under their sovereignty. They crossed a boundary defined by international treaty into land which was not theirs and asserted their sovereignty on it. That is an invasion.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So when a Syrian immigrates to Palestine, he magically becomes a Palestinian

Not so. All people, be they Muslim, Christian, or Jew, who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine would be Palestinian citizens. (Article 30, Treaty of Lausanne) All others had to apply for citizenship.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Wait. Applied equally, that means the LoN was required to provide tutelage to enable the Jewish inhabitants of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq to develop their own self-governments.

Where do you get this shit?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You're kidding, yes? Jordan and Egypt used military force to take and hold territory clearly not under their sovereignty.

They entered Palestine. They did not invade Israel. The UN established armistice lines that were not borders and did not change the international borders.

 

[Hollie]

So when a Syrian immigrates to Palestine, he magically becomes a Palestinian

Not so. All people, be they Muslim, Christian, or Jew, who normally resided in the territory that became Palestine would be Palestinian citizens. (Article 30, Treaty of Lausanne) All others had to apply for citizenship.

And the Jewish people chose self-determination. You have previously stated that is a right all people (peoples) have.

 

[Hollie]

Wait. Applied equally, that means the LoN was required to provide tutelage to enable the Jewish inhabitants of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq to develop their own self-governments.

Where do you get this shit?

Nice dodge™