Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[montelatici]

I see, you think that Wiki is a source for facts regarding the I/P conflict, that's why you are so knowledgeable. Isn't that right MJ. Heh, Heh!

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

There is a huge difference between "establishing colonies" and extending "colonial holdings." There is a difference between:

•• Zionist colonization of Palestine --- or --- the Authority with title and Rights facilitating immigration to establish presence,

•• Palestine as Colonial Holding or a Allied Powers application of colonialism,
​

EXCERPT:

The Zionist colonization of Palestine was recognized as a colonial project from the the beginning, even prior to the Mandate. Trying to claim it was not a colonial is just sheer stupidity on your part Rocco. An article about a Zionist Conference published in 1899 in the New York Times quotes a declaration from the conference indicating that the Zionists “will colonize Palestine."

(COMMENT)

There is no question in that you and I have a very different kind of education. While we us the same words, we have different meanings for those words. I read your news articles and your quotes, and I did not see where it addressed "colonial settlement." In fact I did not see colonialism mentioned in either the 1899 citations or the 1926 citations.

Colonies (Colonization Project) and Colonialism are different in respect to a number of different key point.

The term "colonialism" implies a direct connection back to the nation of origin; an unmistakeable dependency directly governed by a foreign nation of the origin. (Not to be confused with imperialism.) A second major point is that in "colonialism," the established colonies are expected to be a benefit the nation of origin economically, commercially, politically and strategically; with the profits coming back to the country of origin (economic exploitation). Finally, in the case of "colonialism" --- the established colonies represent and extension of the Sovereign Power that made the colonization possible. There is no mistake, in the case of "colonialism," it is a form of conquest were expected to benefit economically and strategically represent a return on the investment.

This is very different from "colonization." The the basic building block of "colonialism" is a "colony;" the colony is tethered back to the country of origin. In the case of pure "colonization," it has none of the characteristic of "colonialism." There is no one nation to which the colonies are tethered; the immigrants come from a multitude of countries. The colonies only reimburse the Mandatory for infrastructure and certain maintenance cost, but benefits and profits are not siphoned-off. In the case of Jewish Colonies, the colonies themselves have no connection to the expansion of sovereignty by the Mandatory. The Title and Rights to the territory were held collectively by the Allied Powers. Jewish settlements have no such relationship.
​

You may not make these distinctions, but I believe that it is important to point-out that the facilitation and encouraged Jewish Immigration establishing settlements to support the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home was not some evil conspiracy to undermine the Title and Rights held by the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Again, you simply make things up that have no basis in fact. (Just like the your claim that the lack of the article "the" somehow changes the meaning of "territories", really silly parroting of Zionist propaganada).

Don't you understand that I see through your bullshit?

The Zionist colonization of Palestine was a settler colonial project undertaken under the precepts of settler colonialism, which seeks to replace the native population with a new society of settlers. Britain was no stranger to settler colonialism having transferred settler populations to replace native populations on nearly every continent over the previous centuries. The U.S. was such a settler colony, too. The British facilitated the transfer of people from all over Europe to their North American colonies.

The new societies need land, and so settler colonialism depends primarily on access to territory. In colonizing Australia, for example, the British implemented the doctrine of “terra nullius” (“land belonging to no one”) to claim sovereignty over the entire continent, declaring it legally uninhabited, despite millennia of Aboriginal occupation.

The settler colony of Palestine was established by the British for the European Jews by a European colonial power, and was tethered to Britain, which was part of Europe. You are making things up to defend an indefensible position. Britain indeed expected to benefit strategically from the establishment of a European colony in Palestine, just the proximity to the Suez canal should give even you a clue. The joint attack by Britain, Israel and France on the canal should also make it clear that their was a strategic reason for Britain to colonize Palestine, even if the effort was unsuccessful.

Colonies, settler or simply conquest type colonies are not necessarily financially profitable for the sponsor of the colonial enterprise, Eritrea, Somalia and Libya were loss leaders for Italy, as were several French, British, Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Colonies are often established for tactical or strategic purposes.

 

[Shusha]

Why are we playing silly word games? Of course, the Jewish people intended to foster Jewish immigration (return) to Israel. Of course, they used the term "colonize" -- that was the common term of the day, used in the sense of "immigrate and inhabit".

But the reason monte uses it now is because it has a negative connotation to our modern ears. It supports his demonization of the Jewish people and their unsavory ways.

There is nothing inherently evil in wanting to return to one's own land and have self-determination there. Just ask the Palestinian "refugees".

 

[Shusha]

The Christians and Muslims tried to participate in self-governing projects from the outset of the Mandate. The British, to avoid the possibility of non-Jewish (Christian and Muslim) self-government, refused to recognize the Palestinian leadership as representative of the inhabitants of Palestine, in writing and as a matter of policy. Only the Zionist Organization was recognized by the British as representative of the inhabitants.

This comment is too broad and generalized to really stick. Between 1917 and 1947 there were a range of Arab thoughts concerning the Jewish Nationalist Movement from this:

Today we and our subjects are deeply troubled over this Palestine question, and the cause of our disquiet and anxiety is the strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.

'God's Holy Book (the Qur'an) contains God's own word and divine ordinance, and we commend to His Majesty's government to read and carefully peruse that portion which deals with the Jews and especially what is to be their fate in the end. For God's words are unalterable and must be.

'We Arabs believe implicitly in God's revealed word and we know that God is faithful. We care for nothing else in this world but our believe in the One God, His Prophet and our Honour, everything else matters nothing at all, not even death, nor are we afraid of hardship, hunger, lack of this worlds goods etc, etc. and we are quite content to eat camel's meat and dates to the end of our days, provided we hold to the above three things.

'Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus Christ), and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet. It is beyond our understanding how your Government, representing the first Christian power in the world today, can wish to assist and reward these very same Jews who maltreated your Isa (Jesus).

''We Arabs have been the traditional friends of Great Britain for many years, and I, Bin Sa'ud, in particular have been your Government's firm friend all my life, what madness then is this which is leading on our Government to destroy this friendship of centuries, all for the sake of an accursed and stiffnecked race which has always bitten the hand of everyone who has helped it since the world began. King ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia

to this:

We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in having suffered similar oppressions at the hands of powers stronger than themselves, and by a happy coincidence have been able to take the first step towards the attainment of their national ideals together.

We Arabs, especially the educated among us look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through: we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.

With the chiefs of your movement, especially with Dr. Weizmann, we have had and continue to have the closest relations. He has been a great helper of our cause, and I hope the Arabs may soon be in a position to make the Jews some return for their kindness. We are working together for a reformed and revived Near East, and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is national and not imperialist. Our movement is national and not imperialist, and there is room in Syria for us both. Indeed I think that neither can be a real success without the other. Prince Feisal Husseni, King of Syria and Iraq


British response would have been quite different. As would Jewish response, obviously.

So, when you discuss specific British rejection of Arab self-government, it would be helpful to include more details.

 

[montelatici]

The Christians and Muslims tried to participate in self-governing projects from the outset of the Mandate. The British, to avoid the possibility of non-Jewish (Christian and Muslim) self-government, refused to recognize the Palestinian leadership as representative of the inhabitants of Palestine, in writing and as a matter of policy. Only the Zionist Organization was recognized by the British as representative of the inhabitants.

This comment is too broad and generalized to really stick. Between 1917 and 1947 there were a range of Arab thoughts concerning the Jewish Nationalist Movement from this:

Today we and our subjects are deeply troubled over this Palestine question, and the cause of our disquiet and anxiety is the strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.

'God's Holy Book (the Qur'an) contains God's own word and divine ordinance, and we commend to His Majesty's government to read and carefully peruse that portion which deals with the Jews and especially what is to be their fate in the end. For God's words are unalterable and must be.

'We Arabs believe implicitly in God's revealed word and we know that God is faithful. We care for nothing else in this world but our believe in the One God, His Prophet and our Honour, everything else matters nothing at all, not even death, nor are we afraid of hardship, hunger, lack of this worlds goods etc, etc. and we are quite content to eat camel's meat and dates to the end of our days, provided we hold to the above three things.

'Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus Christ), and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet. It is beyond our understanding how your Government, representing the first Christian power in the world today, can wish to assist and reward these very same Jews who maltreated your Isa (Jesus).

''We Arabs have been the traditional friends of Great Britain for many years, and I, Bin Sa'ud, in particular have been your Government's firm friend all my life, what madness then is this which is leading on our Government to destroy this friendship of centuries, all for the sake of an accursed and stiffnecked race which has always bitten the hand of everyone who has helped it since the world began. King ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia

to this:

We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in having suffered similar oppressions at the hands of powers stronger than themselves, and by a happy coincidence have been able to take the first step towards the attainment of their national ideals together.

We Arabs, especially the educated among us look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through: we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.

With the chiefs of your movement, especially with Dr. Weizmann, we have had and continue to have the closest relations. He has been a great helper of our cause, and I hope the Arabs may soon be in a position to make the Jews some return for their kindness. We are working together for a reformed and revived Near East, and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is national and not imperialist. Our movement is national and not imperialist, and there is room in Syria for us both. Indeed I think that neither can be a real success without the other. Prince Feisal Husseni, King of Syria and Iraq


British response would have been quite different. As would Jewish response, obviously.

So, when you discuss specific British rejection of Arab self-government, it would be helpful to include more details.

The British simply refused to negotiate with the Muslim and Christian Palestinian leaders, what some goat herding Bedouins from Saudi Arabia and Syria had to say about the issue is irrelevant.

 

[Hollie]

The Christians and Muslims tried to participate in self-governing projects from the outset of the Mandate. The British, to avoid the possibility of non-Jewish (Christian and Muslim) self-government, refused to recognize the Palestinian leadership as representative of the inhabitants of Palestine, in writing and as a matter of policy. Only the Zionist Organization was recognized by the British as representative of the inhabitants.

This comment is too broad and generalized to really stick. Between 1917 and 1947 there were a range of Arab thoughts concerning the Jewish Nationalist Movement from this:

Today we and our subjects are deeply troubled over this Palestine question, and the cause of our disquiet and anxiety is the strange attitude of your British Government, and the still more strange hypnotic influence which the Jews, a race accursed by God according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation hereafter, appear to wield over them and the English people generally.

'God's Holy Book (the Qur'an) contains God's own word and divine ordinance, and we commend to His Majesty's government to read and carefully peruse that portion which deals with the Jews and especially what is to be their fate in the end. For God's words are unalterable and must be.

'We Arabs believe implicitly in God's revealed word and we know that God is faithful. We care for nothing else in this world but our believe in the One God, His Prophet and our Honour, everything else matters nothing at all, not even death, nor are we afraid of hardship, hunger, lack of this worlds goods etc, etc. and we are quite content to eat camel's meat and dates to the end of our days, provided we hold to the above three things.

'Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus Christ), and their subsequent rejection later of His chosen Prophet. It is beyond our understanding how your Government, representing the first Christian power in the world today, can wish to assist and reward these very same Jews who maltreated your Isa (Jesus).

''We Arabs have been the traditional friends of Great Britain for many years, and I, Bin Sa'ud, in particular have been your Government's firm friend all my life, what madness then is this which is leading on our Government to destroy this friendship of centuries, all for the sake of an accursed and stiffnecked race which has always bitten the hand of everyone who has helped it since the world began. King ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia

to this:

We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in having suffered similar oppressions at the hands of powers stronger than themselves, and by a happy coincidence have been able to take the first step towards the attainment of their national ideals together.

We Arabs, especially the educated among us look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through: we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.

With the chiefs of your movement, especially with Dr. Weizmann, we have had and continue to have the closest relations. He has been a great helper of our cause, and I hope the Arabs may soon be in a position to make the Jews some return for their kindness. We are working together for a reformed and revived Near East, and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is national and not imperialist. Our movement is national and not imperialist, and there is room in Syria for us both. Indeed I think that neither can be a real success without the other. Prince Feisal Husseni, King of Syria and Iraq


British response would have been quite different. As would Jewish response, obviously.

So, when you discuss specific British rejection of Arab self-government, it would be helpful to include more details.

The British simply refused to negotiate with the Muslim and Christian Palestinian leaders, what some goat herding Bedouins from Saudi Arabia and Syria had to say about the issue is irrelevant.

I'm afraid we're left, as usual, with you and PFTinmore desperately looking for excuses to accommodate the failure of Arabs-Moslems to effectively take control of their lives and map their own future.

Not surprisingly, we see that dynamic in play throughout the Islamist Middle East.

 

[montelatici]

We are talking about Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And, the British refused to negotiate with them, in writing.

 

[MJB12741]

We are talking about Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And, the British refused to negotiate with them, in writing.

Aw, bless you Monte for wanting to discuss Palestinian Christian & Muslim relations. Sure looks like even more Muslim Palestinian hatred for the Christian Palestinians thus causing this result.

Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop

 

[Shusha]

The British simply refused to negotiate with the Muslim and Christian Palestinian leaders, what some goat herding Bedouins from Saudi Arabia and Syria had to say about the issue is irrelevant.

Come now. Be specific. Which Christian leaders? During what time frame? Which Muslim leaders? During what time frame?

You are trying to make the claim that Arab "Palestinian" sovereignty and self-determination was actively prevented prior to 1947 because the British refused to negotiate with them. Support your claim.

 

[montelatici]

We are talking about Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And, the British refused to negotiate with them, in writing.

Aw, bless you Monte for wanting to discuss Palestinian Christian & Muslim relations. Sure looks like even more Muslim Palestinian hatred for the Christian Palestinians thus causing this result.

Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop

Dear, dear MJ, you are certainly the entertainer. Did you actually read the article?

 

[MJB12741]

We are talking about Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And, the British refused to negotiate with them, in writing.

Aw, bless you Monte for wanting to discuss Palestinian Christian & Muslim relations. Sure looks like even more Muslim Palestinian hatred for the Christian Palestinians thus causing this result.

Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop

Dear, dear MJ, you are certainly the entertainer. Did you actually read the article?[

Yes indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Just curious, why can't they even get along with Palestinian Christians?

 

[MJB12741]

We are talking about Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And, the British refused to negotiate with them, in writing.

Aw, bless you Monte for wanting to discuss Palestinian Christian & Muslim relations. Sure looks like even more Muslim Palestinian hatred for the Christian Palestinians thus causing this result.

Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop

Dear, dear MJ, you are certainly the entertainer. Did you actually read the article?[

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

 

[MJB12741]

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

 

[montelatici]

The British simply refused to negotiate with the Muslim and Christian Palestinian leaders, what some goat herding Bedouins from Saudi Arabia and Syria had to say about the issue is irrelevant.

Come now. Be specific. Which Christian leaders? During what time frame? Which Muslim leaders? During what time frame?

You are trying to make the claim that Arab "Palestinian" sovereignty and self-determination was actively prevented prior to 1947 because the British refused to negotiate with them. Support your claim.

From 1922

"the Secretary of State is anxious to discuss his present proposals informally with recognised representatives, such as yourselves, of any important section of the community, he is not in a position to negotiate officially with you or with any other body which claims to represent the whole or, part of the people of Palestine.....

"Mr. Churchill has already explained in paragraph 4 of this letter why His Majesty's Government are not prepared at the present stage to provide for the creation of a national independent Government in Palestine..."

"Mr. Churchill is unable for the reasons stated above to regard your Delegation as officially representing the People of Palestine."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

Of the six members of the Palestinian Delegation to London, 2 were Christians.

 

[montelatici]

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

You really are bewildered. There are no Muslims involved in the article, you moron. It's difficult to believe that you really are that stupid. And, I even gave you the chance to shut up and not highlight your comprehension problem. But, no you insist on proving your stupidity.

 

[Hollie]

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

You really are bewildered. There are no Muslims involved in the article, you moron. It's difficult to believe that your really that stupid. And, I even gave you the chance to shut up and not highlight your comprehension problem. But, know you prove the point as to your stupidity.

With all your cutting and pasting of the same articles which you have cut and pasted before, we're still left to question why it is that the Arab-Moslem invaders never found the ability for self-government and self-determination when others have.

 

[montelatici]

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

You really are bewildered. There are no Muslims involved in the article, you moron. It's difficult to believe that your really that stupid. And, I even gave you the chance to shut up and not highlight your comprehension problem. But, know you prove the point as to your stupidity.

With all your cutting and pasting of the same articles which you have cut and pasted before, we're still left to question why it is that the Arab-Moslem invaders never found the ability for self-government and self-determination when others have.

With your reading comprehension problem, it's no wonder you are so bewildered.

 

[Hollie]

Yes Indeed. So sorry for this bad news for Muslim Palestinians. Why can't they even get along with Christian Palestinians?

You really are bewildered. There are no Muslims involved in the article, you moron. It's difficult to believe that your really that stupid. And, I even gave you the chance to shut up and not highlight your comprehension problem. But, know you prove the point as to your stupidity.

With all your cutting and pasting of the same articles which you have cut and pasted before, we're still left to question why it is that the Arab-Moslem invaders never found the ability for self-government and self-determination when others have.

With your reading comprehension problem, it's no wonder you are so bewildered.

I'm left to read the same cut and paste articles you cut and paste multiple times across multiple threads. Dumping the same cut and paste material is pointless as a means for you to dance around questions you're unable to address.

Why is it that the Jewish people, those in Hong Kong, South Korea, Vietnam and elsewhere were able to establish self-determination and build their futures without the whining and moaning you offer as excuses for Arab-Moslem incompetence and ineptitude?

 

[montelatici]

Oh, you mean reading facts rather than propaganda. LOL