Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

[Eaglewings]

Parents send their children to war because they are more fit and more likely to win.

In the case of Jesus or the father, they are both fit and that means that the father should have stepped up.

I guess that since you tried to dodge the question, you would put your life ahead of your own child's. Shame on you.

You prove to all here that Christianity corrupts a parents morals.

Regards
DL

BTW: this was really stupid...

Parents send their children to war because they are more fit and more likely to win.

In the case of Jesus or the father, they are both fit and that means that the father should have stepped up.



.

I see nothing to refute what I said or an argument to the opposite.

My statements stand unopposed and thus true to the lurkers.

Regards
DL

Tell me a bit about your faith, and do you feel that there is a higher power greater than yourself?

If one wishes to be greater than me, all they have to do is show how they are greater.

Jesus, the Jews and I all believe in a Divine Council and the supremacy of man over the Gods.

I am a Gnostic Christian, but our beliefs are not what Christianity says they are. We lost the God wars and they distorted our belief system. The lies have been known since the findings of our scriptures and myths at Nag Hammadi.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

Gnostic Christianity is a teaching system from Jesus but not the one the church ever dares to teach. It frees us from religion and that is of course not what religions want. They never want the student to graduate as they might lose revenue and people.

Here is a bit of history as well as a nutshell version of how that freedom is gained.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define as the best laws and rules to live life with.

We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts. I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

I appreciate your honesty, and the links. I will read them.

I get what you are saying about religion , so many out there have used religion in a self righteous way or for their own
purposes and gain. They have turned people away from God as they feel if this is what a christian is ...forget it...

I understand where you are. Look at these jerks in politics trying to gain votes...pisses me off a lot..
This is not at all what a spiritual relationship with Jesus is..not at all.

Religion has been used since the beginning of time in wars, ect. to gain, money and power.
In our generation alone we will see the people using scripture for their own hatred, like Jerry Farwell saying 9/11 happened because of gays.. What a loser!

In 1992 Pat Robertson ( owner of the 700 club) started a christian ( name only) movement . He is a very political man who blinded so many with lies to sway them to vote a certain way . He uses his TV station to spread his agenda.
This movement opened the door to hatred of gays, drunks, well you know. Twisting the scriptures to fit their agenda.
So many are still blinded ...Hatred of satan runs out of their hearts, to gain money and power.

A personal relationship with Christ is nothing about that..It is called Personal because it is only between you and God.
The Holy spirit guiding your heart to love , we show others by our hearts, not with words of judgement . The bible is a guide to live by , not to hold it up in the air to judge others and make up their man made rules.
All you have to do is ask God to show you the truth and He will.


.

 

[irosie91]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

 

[Fishlore]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

The long-standing consensus of scholars of all Christian denomination about the dates when the New Testament books were composed make it clear that Jesus was not a Christian He was a pious, radical Jew from Galilee who lived and died within the apocalyptic branch of Judaism. The neo-Platonic subtleties debated outside the Jerusalem community led by Jesus' brother, James, are a completely separate issue.

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Thanks for the info. How James was killed does seem important in the story of the disciples after Jesus. Acts describes him as the leader of the Jerusalem group which split with Paul of the new Christology which became the basis of the religion.

 

[emilynghiem]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

spirit of comfort, healing, spiritual harmony and heavenly peace, merciful compassion.
Holy Spirit comes with Jesus
means Heavenly Peace comes with Justice with Mercy
for Salvation of humanity and freedom from worldly strife and suffering in sin and separation.

 

[Fishlore]

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

Constantine was canonized in the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH. His
contribution to CANON LAW----was codified in JUSTINIAN LAW and includes
those laws which legalized the Inquisition. The Inquisition was responsible for
the genocide of something like 100s of millions in that it justified the genocides
that-----POPE FRANCES acknowledged recently that took place in the
Americas. Constantine's contribution also form the basis for the shariah laws
of DHIMMIA and Adolf's Nuremburg laws. <<< Not a nice guy. His mother,
Helen----seems to be the more popular saint amongst the eastern orthodox----
but Constantine is DEFINITELY a big shot saint for the eastern orthodox.
He saw a giant cross in the air------I still remember the picture of that event
in my ninth grade history text book ------in days of very olde, or yore----or
whenever it was that I was in the ninth grade

Thanks for the information. Good to know. By coincidence, I am reading Constantine the Emperor by David Potter, rich in detail about the secular background.

 

[irosie91]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

spirit of comfort, healing, spiritual harmony and heavenly peace, merciful compassion.
Holy Spirit comes with Jesus
means Heavenly Peace comes with Justice with Mercy
for Salvation of humanity and freedom from worldly strife and suffering in sin and separation.

these are "characteristics" ,,,,,,, not entities or beings

 

[irosie91]

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

Constantine was canonized in the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH. His
contribution to CANON LAW----was codified in JUSTINIAN LAW and includes
those laws which legalized the Inquisition. The Inquisition was responsible for
the genocide of something like 100s of millions in that it justified the genocides
that-----POPE FRANCES acknowledged recently that took place in the
Americas. Constantine's contribution also form the basis for the shariah laws
of DHIMMIA and Adolf's Nuremburg laws. <<< Not a nice guy. His mother,
Helen----seems to be the more popular saint amongst the eastern orthodox----
but Constantine is DEFINITELY a big shot saint for the eastern orthodox.
He saw a giant cross in the air------I still remember the picture of that event
in my ninth grade history text book ------in days of very olde, or yore----or
whenever it was that I was in the ninth grade

Thanks for the information. Good to know. By coincidence, I am reading Constantine the Emperor by David Potter, rich in detail about the secular background.

Oh good----that historic player interests me because I believe that his "laws"
had a huge impact on the world. Let me know the exciting parts

 

[emilynghiem]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

spirit of comfort, healing, spiritual harmony and heavenly peace, merciful compassion.
Holy Spirit comes with Jesus
means Heavenly Peace comes with Justice with Mercy
for Salvation of humanity and freedom from worldly strife and suffering in sin and separation.

these are "characteristics" ,,,,,,, not entities or beings

Collectively, these characteristics are symbolized as entities or beings.
Universal laws of all creation of all things "collectively" are symbolized and meant by "God's laws"

Thanks for your explanation of Constantin and the history irosie91
I think this is what my friend meant by how the Roman Empire steered scripture for other purposes

I still believe the words of Jesus in the Bible speak to the right way of enforcing
and establishing truth among us by agreement by Conscience.

So this method prescribed in Matthew can still be used to correct the
"politicized" versions of Christianity and scripture and restore the true meaning and spirit
that applies to and unites all humanity, all tribes from Jews to Gentiles, Muslims and Buddhists,
theists and nontheists alike, including atheists and nonchristians. Universal law by definition means
all people. So for Jesus to represent something universal for humanity means including everyone.
Justice for all would include all people of all nations and tribes. Lasting peace would include everyone.

Whatever these political divisions are, that have corrupted and abused the Bible the Quran etc to wage war, the truly faithful followers of truth are on the path of rebuking and correcting so we can right these wrongs.

Blessed are the Peacemakers who shall be called the children of God

 

[irosie91]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

spirit of comfort, healing, spiritual harmony and heavenly peace, merciful compassion.
Holy Spirit comes with Jesus
means Heavenly Peace comes with Justice with Mercy
for Salvation of humanity and freedom from worldly strife and suffering in sin and separation.

these are "characteristics" ,,,,,,, not entities or beings

Collectively, these characteristics are symbolized as entities or beings.
Universal laws of all creation of all things "collectively" are symbolized and meant by "God's laws"

Thanks for your explanation of Constantin and the history irosie91
I think this is what my friend meant by how the Roman Empire steered scripture for other purposes

I still believe the words of Jesus in the Bible speak to the right way of enforcing
and establishing truth among us by agreement by Conscience.

So this method prescribed in Matthew can still be used to correct the
"politicized" versions of Christianity and scripture and restore the true meaning and spirit
that applies to and unites all humanity, all tribes from Jews to Gentiles, Muslims and Buddhists,
theists and nontheists alike, including atheists and nonchristians. Universal law by definition means
all people. So for Jesus to represent something universal for humanity means including everyone.
Justice for all would include all people of all nations and tribes. Lasting peace would include everyone.

Whatever these political divisions are, that have corrupted and abused the Bible the Quran etc to wage war, the truly faithful followers of truth are on the path of rebuking and correcting so we can right these wrongs.

Blessed are the Peacemakers who shall be called the children of God

I agree with you that the words actually expressed by Jesus----which can be
discerned only by KNOWING something about the reality of the times,
the prevalent beliefs and the what seem to me as OBVIOUS distortions
by the EMPEROR OF ROME et al (Constantine and his lackeys)------are
very fine.

 

[Penelope]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

THat is the Rc view. Take or leave it. The Jews had Jesus killed. I have quoted you from ewtn. I think they should know!

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

The long-standing consensus of scholars of all Christian denomination about the dates when the New Testament books were composed make it clear that Jesus was not a Christian He was a pious, radical Jew from Galilee who lived and died within the apocalyptic branch of Judaism. The neo-Platonic subtleties debated outside the Jerusalem community led by Jesus' brother, James, are a completely separate issue.

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[irosie91]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

The long-standing consensus of scholars of all Christian denomination about the dates when the New Testament books were composed make it clear that Jesus was not a Christian He was a pious, radical Jew from Galilee who lived and died within the apocalyptic branch of Judaism. The neo-Platonic subtleties debated outside the Jerusalem community led by Jesus' brother, James, are a completely separate issue.

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

right----according to the writings in the NT------and the accepted catholic partyline ----the REASON that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus in approximately 30 AD was because they did not have the POWER to do so. The ALTERNATE explanation is that they WOULD have executed him but were afraid to do so
because he was so "popular"------so they "forced" Pilate to do it. James----
according to the Catholic church was executed in 62 AD ----"by the Sanhedrin"----
which had no power to engage in executions by then. (James---not Stephen) Your source---penny dear----does
not support your conclusions or the claims of the catholic church. Your source
makes the claim that the Sanhedrin was not permitted to engage in execution by
30 AD and the standard party line is the reason that Jesus was not murdered
by "the jews" is because he was so popular with the general public that the
evil jooos were AFRAID to do it. Make up your minds. In fact----what is
a far more realistic conclusion based on reality is that the Romans wanted
DA JOOOOS to do it------but even the roman shill sadducees refused because
Jesus was not guilty of a crime warranting execution according to Jewish law.
The only way Pilate could get rid of him was by DOING IT HIMSELF

 

[GreatestIam]

So you do not need a savior but accept him as such anyway, while changing the term. Rather semantic and hypocritical as seen from here.

If God/Jesus is divine then he cannot die.

Jesus also offered nothing as he was chosen and had no choice and he confirms that in scriptures by saying he was doing his fathers will and not his own.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Without Jesus and his so called sacrifice. Catholics have no religion and no salvation which they say we need.

If you want to chat, do not lie or distort your dogma as you tried to do here.

Regards
DL

Dear GreatestIam
1. Jesus means Salvation in spiritual terms, or Justice in secular terms.
Don't people need to receive forgiveness and healing in order to maintain PEACE.
Don't all people need to work together to establishment agreement on JUSTICE.

Saying we don't need Jesus is like saying we don't need to forgive in order to receive Peace and Justice.
I find people cannot fully forgive all things WITHOUT DIVINE HELP.

2. Jesus can follow God's will and accept that his life is for the purpose of divine sacrifice
to break the vicious cycle of retribution

Why are you saying it cannot be both? Both God's will and a sacrifice?

3. RE: hiding immorality
GreatestIam are you projecting onto me?
Are you hiding some fault on your side, but telling yourself I am hiding something?
Is that a form of hiding your own?

I have answered fully and transparently
If you see something "immoral" in what I say or how I explain it,
can you please point it out SPECIFICALLY so it is NOT HIDDEN.

I would like all faults to be addressed openly so they can be fixed.
GreatestIam if you see something contradictory, please point it out
SPECIFICALLY so I can correct it. What do you see wrong in what I said?

Thanks GreatestIam

How do you figure that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow justice?

Is that how you think our legal system should work?

Regards
DL

GreatestIam Did you read my post?
No, it's not, it's injustice.
That's why we need redemption in Restorative Justice
to correct the wrongs CAUSING the injustice. So this injustice doesn't happen again,
the cycle of abuse is BROKEN.

The point of Christ Jesus is to BREAK the cycle of wrongful retribution!
NOT to continue it.
Got it? Get it, good!

I will only tolerate your ignorance when you actually answer my questions.

But thanks for showing all the lurkers here how ignorant and ill mannered a Christian can be.

Regards
DL

Hi DL GreatestIam
1. I did answer your assertions as best I could, but I will clarify again, see below
Please let me know if this answers your questions more clearly.
2. I did not see anyone here being ignorant or ill mannered
I think we are misunderstanding each other's questions or meanings
but this is not out of ill manners. This is very common for people of
different backgrounds to interpret things differently, and think the other
person means something else.
3. I am saying you misunderstand the CORRECT teaching of Jesus
as BREAKING the cycle of injustice
not promoting the injustice of punishing the innocent.

Am I allowed to say that question is already loaded?
GreatestIam
You ASSUME that faith in Jesus means supporting punishing the innocent.
I am saying you set up that question to be loaded.
So I asked to UNLOAD the question.

If you are asking if I support that IDEA of punishing the innocent as justice,
of course, I answer NO I don't believe in that either!

But this isn't what Jesus means in the context of Restorative Justice.
Can we start by separating those two?
The false teachings YOU are pointing out as unjust.
vs the true type of justice you and I should both believe in (and
it appears we do by your questions and mine, we both reject the injustice)

Can we agree there are two different interpretations of Jesus
and the one YOU POINT OUT is wrongful, I agree. That IS unjust as you describe it.

So to answer your question
NO I do NOT agree with the idea of punishing the innocent as justice.

Is that answering more clearly?
Thanks! And sorry if any of us came across as ignorant or ill mannered.
I disagree with that assertion also.

I think we all have the right intentions "of establishing truth" but we miscommunicate
and misunderstand because our backgrounds are clearly different.
This happens all the time, and is not meant to be disrespectful.

"not promoting the injustice of punishing the innocent."

God is promoting the punishing of the innocent when demanding a sacrifice of an innocent man.

Only the most foolish will think otherwise and ignore the precedent set by God.

Recognize that or go away.

Regards
DL

 

[Indeependent]

Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

The long-standing consensus of scholars of all Christian denomination about the dates when the New Testament books were composed make it clear that Jesus was not a Christian He was a pious, radical Jew from Galilee who lived and died within the apocalyptic branch of Judaism. The neo-Platonic subtleties debated outside the Jerusalem community led by Jesus' brother, James, are a completely separate issue.

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

right----according to the writings in the NT------and the accepted catholic partyline ----the REASON that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus in approximately 30 AD was because they did not have the POWER to do so. The ALTERNATE explanation is that they WOULD have executed him but were afraid to do so
because he was so "popular"------so they "forced" Pilate to do it. James----
according to the Catholic church was executed in 62 AD ----"by the Sanhedrin"----
which had no power to engage in executions by then. (James---not Stephen) Your source---penny dear----does
not support your conclusions or the claims of the catholic church. Your source
makes the claim that the Sanhedrin was not permitted to engage in execution by
30 AD and the standard party line is the reason that Jesus was not murdered
by "the jews" is because he was so popular with the general public that the
evil jooos were AFRAID to do it. Make up your minds. In fact----what is
a far more realistic conclusion based on reality is that the Romans wanted
DA JOOOOS to do it------but even the roman shill sadducees refused because
Jesus was not guilty of a crime warranting execution according to Jewish law.
The only way Pilate could get rid of him was by DOING IT HIMSELF

The fascinating fact is that Jews don't give a sh!t about Jesus; just the behavior of his believers who won't leave us alone.

 

[GreatestIam]

Parents send their children to war because they are more fit and more likely to win.

In the case of Jesus or the father, they are both fit and that means that the father should have stepped up.

I guess that since you tried to dodge the question, you would put your life ahead of your own child's. Shame on you.

You prove to all here that Christianity corrupts a parents morals.

Regards
DL

BTW: this was really stupid...

Parents send their children to war because they are more fit and more likely to win.

In the case of Jesus or the father, they are both fit and that means that the father should have stepped up.



.

I see nothing to refute what I said or an argument to the opposite.

My statements stand unopposed and thus true to the lurkers.

Regards
DL

Tell me a bit about your faith, and do you feel that there is a higher power greater than yourself?

If one wishes to be greater than me, all they have to do is show how they are greater.

Jesus, the Jews and I all believe in a Divine Council and the supremacy of man over the Gods.

I am a Gnostic Christian, but our beliefs are not what Christianity says they are. We lost the God wars and they distorted our belief system. The lies have been known since the findings of our scriptures and myths at Nag Hammadi.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

Gnostic Christianity is a teaching system from Jesus but not the one the church ever dares to teach. It frees us from religion and that is of course not what religions want. They never want the student to graduate as they might lose revenue and people.

Here is a bit of history as well as a nutshell version of how that freedom is gained.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers after God. God here I define as the best laws and rules to live life with.

We believe that those laws and rules, as Jesus said, are found in our minds/hearts. I use the following to try to illustrate this notion. A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do what I promote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

I appreciate your honesty, and the links. I will read them.

I get what you are saying about religion , so many out there have used religion in a self righteous way or for their own
purposes and gain. They have turned people away from God as they feel if this is what a christian is ...forget it...

I understand where you are. Look at these jerks in politics trying to gain votes...pisses me off a lot..
This is not at all what a spiritual relationship with Jesus is..not at all.

Religion has been used since the beginning of time in wars, ect. to gain, money and power.
In our generation alone we will see the people using scripture for their own hatred, like Jerry Farwell saying 9/11 happened because of gays.. What a loser!

In 1992 Pat Robertson ( owner of the 700 club) started a christian ( name only) movement . He is a very political man who blinded so many with lies to sway them to vote a certain way . He uses his TV station to spread his agenda.
This movement opened the door to hatred of gays, drunks, well you know. Twisting the scriptures to fit their agenda.
So many are still blinded ...Hatred of satan runs out of their hearts, to gain money and power.

A personal relationship with Christ is nothing about that..It is called Personal because it is only between you and God.
The Holy spirit guiding your heart to love , we show others by our hearts, not with words of judgement . The bible is a guide to live by , not to hold it up in the air to judge others and make up their man made rules.
All you have to do is ask God to show you the truth and He will.


.

Thanks for this.

When you follow the links I gave you, google to the Vatican's painting of creation painted by Michelangelo. Note the background God sits in and see that it looks exactly like the right hemisphere of your brain. That is where God resides. While at the Vatican, note that the largest sculpture they own is of the pineal gland that is said to activate our third eye. Jesus uses the term single eye.

Now apply that to these quotes.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I hope all this work does not discourage you.

Let me know what you think.

Regards
DL

 

[irosie91]

RC's do not believe in Substitutionary Atonement.

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

it is not entirely clear to me that "James" is an historic figure in the minds of
all or most Christian scholars

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

right----according to the writings in the NT------and the accepted catholic partyline ----the REASON that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus in approximately 30 AD was because they did not have the POWER to do so. The ALTERNATE explanation is that they WOULD have executed him but were afraid to do so
because he was so "popular"------so they "forced" Pilate to do it. James----
according to the Catholic church was executed in 62 AD ----"by the Sanhedrin"----
which had no power to engage in executions by then. (James---not Stephen) Your source---penny dear----does
not support your conclusions or the claims of the catholic church. Your source
makes the claim that the Sanhedrin was not permitted to engage in execution by
30 AD and the standard party line is the reason that Jesus was not murdered
by "the jews" is because he was so popular with the general public that the
evil jooos were AFRAID to do it. Make up your minds. In fact----what is
a far more realistic conclusion based on reality is that the Romans wanted
DA JOOOOS to do it------but even the roman shill sadducees refused because
Jesus was not guilty of a crime warranting execution according to Jewish law.
The only way Pilate could get rid of him was by DOING IT HIMSELF

The fascinating fact is that Jews don't give a sh!t about Jesus; just the behavior of his believers who won't leave us alone.

It fascinates me even more that Christians seem to have a deep animosity
to Jesus which they PROJECT onto jews who, they claim were DESPERATE
to murder him out simple baseless HATRED----but somehow could not figure
out HOW to do it. Some how it had something to do with TAXES as if
Jesus was somehow responsible for TAXES

 

[Indeependent]

Yes they do. That was drilled into me as a R C for many years.

Are you saying that they did not and do not believe that they need a savior?

Regards
DL

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose

That is very interesting. There are, as I am sure you know, several key references to James as a member of the inner circle of disciples and as the leader of the Jerusalem followers after the death of Jesus. Are the scholars you mention denying the accuracy of these passages, or what?

The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

right----according to the writings in the NT------and the accepted catholic partyline ----the REASON that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus in approximately 30 AD was because they did not have the POWER to do so. The ALTERNATE explanation is that they WOULD have executed him but were afraid to do so
because he was so "popular"------so they "forced" Pilate to do it. James----
according to the Catholic church was executed in 62 AD ----"by the Sanhedrin"----
which had no power to engage in executions by then. (James---not Stephen) Your source---penny dear----does
not support your conclusions or the claims of the catholic church. Your source
makes the claim that the Sanhedrin was not permitted to engage in execution by
30 AD and the standard party line is the reason that Jesus was not murdered
by "the jews" is because he was so popular with the general public that the
evil jooos were AFRAID to do it. Make up your minds. In fact----what is
a far more realistic conclusion based on reality is that the Romans wanted
DA JOOOOS to do it------but even the roman shill sadducees refused because
Jesus was not guilty of a crime warranting execution according to Jewish law.
The only way Pilate could get rid of him was by DOING IT HIMSELF

The fascinating fact is that Jews don't give a sh!t about Jesus; just the behavior of his believers who won't leave us alone.

It fascinates me even more that Christians seem to have a deep animosity
to Jesus which they PROJECT onto jews who, they claim were DESPERATE
to murder him out simple baseless HATRED----but somehow could not figure
out HOW to do it. Some how it had something to do with TAXES as if
Jesus was somehow responsible for TAXES

If the Sanhedrin wanted you dead, they put you in a room and came back a month later to check up on you.
No joke; they took care of people whom they knew were guilty even if they couldn't prove it.

 

[GreatestIam]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

The original and most of the trinity concepts were father, mother, son.

Christianity has worked hard to vilify women starting with changing the moral of the Eden story from the elevation of man that Jews had to the fall of man and blaming it all on women.

The Church also never speaks of the disciples that were women.

The Church took woman out of their Trinity and had to replace her with something so they chose Holy spirit.

They also took the male out of the Jewish view of Satan and if you google Michelangelo's Eden painting, you will see that the church made Satan a female.

Not too surprising then to see why Christianity is such a misogynous religion.

If I was a woman, I would be some pissed and you would never find me putting any coin in a Christian basket.

Regards
DL

 

[Indeependent]

can someone tell me who "the holy spirit" is?

The original and most of the trinity concepts were father, mother, son.

Christianity has worked hard to vilify women starting with changing the moral of the Eden story from the elevation of man that Jews had to the fall of man and blaming it all on women.

The Church also never speaks of the disciples that were women.

The Church took woman out of their Trinity and had to replace her with something so they chose Holy spirit.

They also took the male out of the Jewish view of Satan and if you google Michelangelo's Eden painting, you will see that the church made Satan a female.

Not too surprising then to see why Christianity is such a misogynous religion.

If I was a woman, I would be some pissed and you would never find me putting any coin in a Christian basket.

Regards
DL

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
The Roman Empire couldn't deal with a Single, Unknowable God.

 

[irosie91]

the eastern Orthodox canonized Constantine-----the man whose
The scholarly evaluation of James refers to the account of james in the NT---which
seems to state that he was judged by the "SANHEDRIN" to be executed by stoning, --------at a time when Christian scholars INSIST that the Sanhedrin had
been deprived of the right to execute ANYONE by the ruling romans. My reading
of the NT however------deficient though it might be is that what it really says
is that James was stoned by something like a lynch mob. I cannot name names
for you

Josephus said James was killed in Jerusalem . You may be thinking of Steven who was stoned at the feet of Paul. Yes and right again, Romans ruled Jews could not execute as of 30 AD according to the jewish library and John:


John 18:31New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

31 At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,”[a]

Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said: 'If so, they would have multiplied murderers in Israel.'" Instructive though this is, it is merely an academic discussion, the right of imposing capital punishment having been taken from the Sanhedrin by the Romans a century before, "40 years before the Destruction of the Temple" (Sanh. 41a; TJ, Sanh. 1:18a).

Capital Punishment | Jewish Virtual Library

right----according to the writings in the NT------and the accepted catholic partyline ----the REASON that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus in approximately 30 AD was because they did not have the POWER to do so. The ALTERNATE explanation is that they WOULD have executed him but were afraid to do so
because he was so "popular"------so they "forced" Pilate to do it. James----
according to the Catholic church was executed in 62 AD ----"by the Sanhedrin"----
which had no power to engage in executions by then. (James---not Stephen) Your source---penny dear----does
not support your conclusions or the claims of the catholic church. Your source
makes the claim that the Sanhedrin was not permitted to engage in execution by
30 AD and the standard party line is the reason that Jesus was not murdered
by "the jews" is because he was so popular with the general public that the
evil jooos were AFRAID to do it. Make up your minds. In fact----what is
a far more realistic conclusion based on reality is that the Romans wanted
DA JOOOOS to do it------but even the roman shill sadducees refused because
Jesus was not guilty of a crime warranting execution according to Jewish law.
The only way Pilate could get rid of him was by DOING IT HIMSELF

The fascinating fact is that Jews don't give a sh!t about Jesus; just the behavior of his believers who won't leave us alone.

It fascinates me even more that Christians seem to have a deep animosity
to Jesus which they PROJECT onto jews who, they claim were DESPERATE
to murder him out simple baseless HATRED----but somehow could not figure
out HOW to do it. Some how it had something to do with TAXES as if
Jesus was somehow responsible for TAXES

If the Sanhedrin wanted you dead, they put you in a room and came back a month later to check up on you.
No joke; they took care of people whom they knew were guilty even if they couldn't prove it.

At that time-----one did not NEED a Sanhedrin to get rid of anyone------the disorder
was EXTREME The story of this HATRED unfulfilled-----makes no sense----lots
of other people seem to have died out of -----"dislike"

 

[GreatestIam]

why would "they know"??? ----they rely on a book written and edited by a
tyrannical murderer who just happened to be an apologist for all things roman---
like "lion lunch for fun and amusement" and barbaric exploitation of conquered
people and enslavement there of. -----and crucifixtion. The NT is an excellent
source-------for people who can manage to accept the fact that it did not fall from
heaven and just WHO wrote it and why-------EXCELLENT

Who is this tyrannical murderer??

You don't know? Constantine,,,,,,,,<<such a bloody roman barbarian that there
are some Christian theologians who refuse to accept him as a Christian.....
or a "saint"

I didn't know Constantine was canonized by anyone. His story, as far as I remember, comes to us from Eusebius and doesn't present the guy as very spiritual. His various dreams and visions, including the famous cross in the sky, fit in much better with contemporary pagan beliefs than with the teachings of the Christian churches.

Constantine was canonized in the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH. His
contribution to CANON LAW----was codified in JUSTINIAN LAW and includes
those laws which legalized the Inquisition. The Inquisition was responsible for
the genocide of something like 100s of millions in that it justified the genocides
that-----POPE FRANCES acknowledged recently that took place in the
Americas. Constantine's contribution also form the basis for the shariah laws
of DHIMMIA and Adolf's Nuremburg laws. <<< Not a nice guy. His mother,
Helen----seems to be the more popular saint amongst the eastern orthodox----
but Constantine is DEFINITELY a big shot saint for the eastern orthodox.
He saw a giant cross in the air------I still remember the picture of that event
in my ninth grade history text book ------in days of very olde, or yore----or
whenever it was that I was in the ninth grade

Thanks for the information. Good to know. By coincidence, I am reading Constantine the Emperor by David Potter, rich in detail about the secular background.

You might like this piece. It speaks of Constantine's deeper motivations and plans to overshadow or become a new Jesus.

He died just a touch too soon.

[MOVIE] Secrets of Christianity – Selling Christianity

Regards
DL