Jesus on Marriage...

[Newby]

What's your educational background?

Primarily degrees in business with minors in history. I teach business and history classes at the college level in Oregon and previously in Arizona. I have studied the Bible from historical, linguistic, and cultural perspectives for over 25 years

Studied it from a historical, linguistic and culteral perspective under who? Where did you come about the linguistic expertise in order to study it from that perspective?

I have a college education, graduated with a major in Business Information Technology, a minor in Comp. Sci, and I'm working on an MBA. I've studied the Bible for as long as you have, almost, you must be older than I am. But, none of that makes me an expert in Greek linguistics or Greek text to speak in any authority about translations of the text. My point is, you know what you've read somewhere, same as everybody else who's spent any time on this topic and cared to learn more. Who's to say how accurate your sources are?

 

[Newby]

Yes, please. I would like you to discuss Paul's bullshit verses. Mucho gracias.

that's a thread unto itself and I actually went into it very deeply on another thread. Let me just copy what I wrote there. It will save me the time of writing it all out again.

On Paul and culture:

Paul is a very problematic source of information for a lot of reasons (which I will explain thoroughly if anyone is really that interested) and frankly in my research I have gotten to the point that if it's written by Paul I generally take it with a huge grain of salt if not ignore it completely.

But sometimes Paul talks about "the effeminate" and "unnatural sexual acts" and how being effeminate is an affront to God, etc. Again we have have to understand some cultural points here. Paul was a Roman and in Roman culture (or Greek or frankly just about any culture of the time) they distinguished greatly between the dominant role in homosexual activity and the feminine role in homosexual activity. It was perfectly fine and natural to be the dominant male in homosexual activity. But the feminine male was a position reserved for young boys and slaves. It would be considered a social abomination; completely unnatural for a grown man to assume the feminine role.

In other words, in regards to homosexual relations it was no problem at all to be the pitcher; you just couldn't be the catcher. Now in the 21st century we don't distinguish between the two forms of homosexual roles. We tend to lump them together: gay is gay no matter what role you take and to suggest that there is a difference between the dominant role and the feminine role is ridiculous. But that is according to our 21st century perception. To Paul...a Roman....that would make perfect sense and indeed would be the precise way that he was brought up to think.

On Paul and power:



On Paul and inconsistency:

...it's also important to remember that Paul had a real bad habit of changing his story according to what suited him best at the time. For example, when talking to Jews he would claim to be of Jewish descent and then at other times he claimed to be a member of the Sanhedrian, then at other times he claimed to be nothing more than a Roman citizen.

And these weren't simply times in his life where his philosophy had developed to a point where suddenly he found that he identified more with one group than the other. He flipped flopped around more frequently than a porn star based upon what was best for him according to the circumstances he was presently dealing with. So the argument can certainly be made that Paul was at best a bullshit artist, and at worst a lying sack of shit. This is just one problem that I, and a lot of Biblical scholars, have with Paul.

On mistranslations of Paul:

In 1 Corinthians 6:9, for example, Paul used the Greek word "arsenokotai" to describe a group of people that God finds unsavory. The problem is no one knows what "arsenokotai" means. The word is found in no other scriptures or any kind of writing from that time, the context doesn't help because Paul was throwing out a list of things that were unsavory but completely unrelated to each other; we don't know what the fuck it means. We do know that the Greek term for homosexuality at the time was "pederasstie" so it seems that if Paul was referring to homosexuals he simply would have used that word. So why is "arsenokotai" translated into "homosexuals"? Damn good question. No one knows and the church hasn't been too eager to explain itself.

The other main thing to keep in mind about Paul is that his writings are largely letters. Corinthians, for example, was part of a set of letters that he wrote to someone telling him what to teach the people of Corinth. Romans was part of a set of letters about what to teach the people of Rome, etc. The problem is we don't have all of the letters and we don't have any of the letters he received in response. So reading Paul is a little like walking into a room while someone is on the phone, listening to some of their conversation (only hearing one side), leaving the room, and coming back in and listening to them finish their conversation. You kind of get the idea of what they are talking about but you really don't understand what it's in reference to, what the context is, etc. All we're left to do is guess and that makes Paul's writings very ambiguous and easily manipulated because by using Midrash the Church can claim that he was talking about a specific thing but in reality they don't have any idea what he was referring to any more than you or I do. Through Midrash they can literally make up whatever the hell they want and have no need to justify it or back it up with evidence.

I've read many of these same opinions on various websites, the first one talking about the 'dominant male' in a homosexual relationship in Biblical times is almost word for word of what I read.

 

[Foxfyre]

Primarily degrees in business with minors in history. I teach business and history classes at the college level in Oregon and previously in Arizona. I have studied the Bible from historical, linguistic, and cultural perspectives for over 25 years

oops

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

I trust Phantom's scholarship though on this thread alone, I have seen a few things we could have a pretty good debate about.

I trust your scholarship and we probably won't agree on every historical or philosophical or theological issue either.

I trust my own scholarship and have also been studying and teaching this stuff for decades, but I have not agreed 100% on every single point with any one of my mentors, any one of my quite well educated students, or my much-better-educated-than-I-am colleagues. I consider myself educated and holding a certain degree of expertise. I do not consider myself an expert or in no need of further education.

And I think the three of us, plus some others, could have some great discussions over coffee or dinner and all learn from each other.

And I would bet a good steak dinner than none of us claims to know everything involved in the Biblical texts and we all agree that much remains shrouded in mystery and is unknowable. Which does not diminish in the least its importance and influence on our own culture, values, and understanding.

 

[BluePhantom]

Primarily degrees in business with minors in history. I teach business and history classes at the college level in Oregon and previously in Arizona. I have studied the Bible from historical, linguistic, and cultural perspectives for over 25 years

oops

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

 

[Ravi]

Wouldn't it be more valuable to disprove what he's posted instead of just claiming that you don't believe it?

 

[Newby]

Primarily degrees in business with minors in history. I teach business and history classes at the college level in Oregon and previously in Arizona. I have studied the Bible from historical, linguistic, and cultural perspectives for over 25 years

oops

Del, you don't need a master's degree in psychology to understand that Charles Manson was nuts. You don't need a degree in electrical engineering to hook up your TV. Anyone can go out and do independent research on any topic and become very educated and knowledgeable on that topic, and in fact as a teacher I would sometimes argue that it would be your best bet as the education you receive may be far less biased.

It's not difficult to research history, languages, and cultures and relate it to the Bible and the reality is that most evangelists, for example, have done none of that research. These guys you see on TV in these grand churches preaching this and that are completely ignoring the history, the culture, the language probably because they have never bothered to look at it. That's a real piss off because they are essentially brainwashing their followers into a specific line of theological thought that is completely removed from its context.

By the same token one does not need a master's degree in theology to understand all this shit. All they need is to do some serious legitimate research on the topic (and I'd say 25 years of hard research is pretty solid) and the truth is that the Church is hoping like hell that people don't do that research because once they do they find that what the Bible says in English is a lot different than what it says in Hebrew, Greek, etc.

But more to the point....if you don't want to take my word for it, fine. In fact I prefer it that way....I encourage you to go research the history, languages, cultures, traditions, etc yourself and draw your own conclusions. Once you do that my guess is that you will largely agree with me, but that's of little importance. What is important is that you will have done the research and will be in a far better position to draw conclusions on the Bible based upon additional knowledge instead of simply taking what a priest, pastor, or whoever (who has a financial stake in you believing what they tell you to believe) says at face value.

That's what I thought, thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Ravi]

oops

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

It's called confirmation bias and most everyone suffers from it to one degree or another.

Some more than others, of course (*cough* *cough* Newby).

 

[Newby]

oops

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

 

[Newby]

oops

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

I trust Phantom's scholarship though on this thread alone, I have seen a few things we could have a pretty good debate about.

I trust your scholarship and we probably won't agree on every historical or philosophical or theological issue either.

I trust my own scholarship and have also been studying and teaching this stuff for decades, but I have not agreed 100% on every single point with any one of my mentors, any one of my quite well educated students, or my much-better-educated-than-I-am colleagues. I consider myself educated and holding a certain degree of expertise. I do not consider myself an expert or in no need of further education.

And I think the three of us, plus some others, could have some great discussions over coffee or dinner and all learn from each other.

And I would bet a good steak dinner than none of us claims to know everything involved in the Biblical texts and we all agree that much remains shrouded in mystery and is unknowable. Which does not diminish in the least its importance and influence on our own culture, values, and understanding.

And I completely trust and respect you Fox, I always have. Blue sounds like a person with an ax to grind, so I will keep my reservations with regards to him.

 

[Foxfyre]

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

I trust Phantom's scholarship though on this thread alone, I have seen a few things we could have a pretty good debate about.

I trust your scholarship and we probably won't agree on every historical or philosophical or theological issue either.

I trust my own scholarship and have also been studying and teaching this stuff for decades, but I have not agreed 100% on every single point with any one of my mentors, any one of my quite well educated students, or my much-better-educated-than-I-am colleagues. I consider myself educated and holding a certain degree of expertise. I do not consider myself an expert or in no need of further education.

And I think the three of us, plus some others, could have some great discussions over coffee or dinner and all learn from each other.

And I would bet a good steak dinner than none of us claims to know everything involved in the Biblical texts and we all agree that much remains shrouded in mystery and is unknowable. Which does not diminish in the least its importance and influence on our own culture, values, and understanding.

And I completely trust and respect you Fox, I always have. Blue sounds like a person with an ax to grind, so I will keep my reservations with regards to him.

Thanks Newby, but my experience with Blue is that he does his homework. He just comes from a somewhat different school of theology than I do, but I am familiar with it and it deserves its place within the debate. We don't have to agree with somebody to have some productive discussions.

 

[BDBoop]

What's your educational background?

Primarily degrees in business with minors in history. I teach business and history classes at the college level in Oregon and previously in Arizona. I have studied the Bible from historical, linguistic, and cultural perspectives for over 25 years

Are you a Greek scholar, do you know the Greek language?

Do you?

 

[BluePhantom]

Studied it from a historical, linguistic and culteral perspective under who? Where did you come about the linguistic expertise in order to study it from that perspective?

I have a college education, graduated with a major in Business Information Technology, a minor in Comp. Sci, and I'm working on an MBA. I've studied the Bible for as long as you have, almost, you must be older than I am. But, none of that makes me an expert in Greek linguistics or Greek text to speak in any authority about translations of the text. My point is, you know what you've read somewhere, same as everybody else who's spent any time on this topic and cared to learn more. Who's to say how accurate your sources are?

I understand your point...essentially "one's opinion is only as good as the source information." It's a fair question and I don't have an issue with it.

My sources have been varied and many. My purpose for studying history in college and pursuing the study of history after graduation through further college courses, reading, etc was for the purpose of understanding history to further an understanding of the Bible. When I discuss the "history, languages, cultures, etc" my personal point of expertise is in the history and cultures part. That is where I have performed the majority of formal and independent study. But I quickly learned that understanding history and culture was not enough. Understanding the languages was important, understanding traditions was important, etc

For the languages part I historically relied on various sources. In college I developed a circle of professors who were experts in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc who were willing to assist me with the linguistics. I maintained those relationships after I graduated and have relied upon them ever since. Through time I have met others who have expertise and are willing to assist me. When I became a teacher I pulled many of my colleagues from the university into that circle. So I have a large group of people who understand what I am trying to do and are willing to assist me in furthering my "search for the real God" so to speak and throughout my life they have been willing to lend me their expertise in specific areas that apply.

In addition I read a LOT and I never take one point of view as gospel. I make sure I read the opposing point of view as well, compare it to what I have discovered to that point, look for evidence that supports or refutes a given point, discuss the results with my colleagues to gain multiple points of view, etc.

So let's say I want to do some research on Pilate's role in the crucifixion. Well first I will read the English translation in the Bible. Then I will research it from a historical perspective through my existing education, additional course work if available, discussions with colleagues and friends who are experts in Roman history, further reading, etc. I will look for information on Pilate specifically (not much there), but I will also look at what Roman Prefects were like in general. What was their role? What did they do? What were their attitudes? Pilate was under Tiberius...what was he like? Did he demand certain things? What was going on in Judea during the reign of Tiberius? How did that impact the culture and perspectives? Etc, etc.

Once I have a pretty good handle on that then I will look at it from a cultural perspective to get an understanding of why a given historical event may have happened in a given way. For example it's a pretty good bet that when Pilate talked to Jesus he was in a fucking shitty mood to begin with. Pilate was almost certainly pulled from a nice comfy estate where his every need was fulfilled to the middle of a city that he probably considered a shithole, was a political powder keg, he knew the Jews were going to be "uppity", etc....BUT he would have had to have been a man who applied Roman law appropriately or Tiberius would have had his head. The Jews are going to be raising all hell and pushing the limits of what they can get away with because it's Passover in a holy city that is occupied by pagans. So I get a handle on that.

Then I will get in touch with my experts in linguistics and we'll discuss what the Bible has to say from a linguistic point of view (and I will use multiple sources and experts to ensure I get multiple perspectives). We will discuss passages in the Bible pertaining to Pilate and discuss the significance of this word vs. that word. What the multiple meaning for this word are...did that meaning change over time? How many ways could it be interpreted?

A lot of this will cross over because history, culture, language, traditions, etc are all somewhat intertwined so I will constantly be referring back to notes I have taken here, a class I have taken there, a conversation with this professor, a conversation with that other professor.

And once it's all done I will think about it....for about a year. Then I will wrap it all up into a conclusion and sit down with all those people and discuss it at length. I will check for accuracy, make sure I understand the contrary points of view, etc.

Now will that be the end of it? No...over time I will gain new insights and new learning and you may see my conclusion adjust a bit here and a bit there....sometimes it changes completely.

So does that make me an "expert"? You are free to reach your own conclusion on that (and frankly I am really not concerned whether you do or not)....but I will say that I feel pretty confident that I have a far greater understanding than the person who stands when he is told to stand, kneels when he is told to kneel, sings when he is told to sing, prays using words he is told to use, and believes what he is told to believe by a guy wearing a robe.

 

[BluePhantom]

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

I think you misunderstand. I have no problem at all with Christianity. I think it's awesome. I have a very big problem with organized churches who misrepresent things (often knowingly) in order to keep their pockets lined and maintain the obedience of the people...and I hate to tell you this sister...but that is not uncommon.

I never said that every preacher or pastor is out to deceive. Some of them are fantastic...but a lot of them aren't. Some of them do study ancient languages and cultures....most of them don't.

Furthermore, as a college professor I will be quick to point out that course work is great but it should not be taken by itself. Professors are going to teach according to their own biases just like anyone else...and they learned what they know from people with other biases just like everyone else.

So no....I have no problem with Christians or Christianity in general. I love the Lord and my search in life has been to become closer with Her. I love Jesus and praise His name....but what Jesus said and what Paul said are sometimes completely opposite. What Jesus said and what Billy Graham says are often polar opposites.

From my experience and research, I have concluded that Christianity as it is practiced today is FAR different than what Jesus was talking about and how it was practiced shortly after his death. You are perfectly free to conclude something else. At the end of the day I really don't care what someone else believes so long as they believe it because they have reached their conclusion through research, meditation, prayer, communication with the spirit, whatever. If it works for someone and gives them meaning in their lives then who am I to tell them they are wrong? What annoys the hell out of me is when people believe what they do because someone in a robe told them to believe it, they never questioned it, they never challenged it, they never researched it, and they go around hammering the shit out of everyone else as a result.

 

[del]

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

 

[BluePhantom]

I trust Phantom's scholarship though on this thread alone, I have seen a few things we could have a pretty good debate about.

Well....I could be wrong. I don't think I am, but if I look at it from a purely scientific perspective I have to concede that yeah.....I could be wrong.

But I think there is a larger point to be made here and you touched on it with the other things you said. And IL was going this direction as well.....everyone is going to have variances in their interpretations and those variances will be based on so many things: their upbringing, their culture, the filter of their experiences. Ravi talked about confirmation bias and yeah that's a part of it too.

I think we forget that the authors of the Bible were subject to those same forces and because of all the problems with the Bible; mistranslations, translations of translations, holes in the parchment at a critical point, historical and cultural misunderstanding, Midrash, sometimes just flat out corruption and deceit, a copy of a book that says one thing and another copy of the same book dated 100 years earlier that says different things......you know, when you look at all of this it will make your head spin and at the end of the day who knows what is "the word of God" and what is "the word of man"?

Personally (just for myself) I believe (or am willing to believe) that the first drafts of these documents and these scriptures may have indeed been "the true word of God"....but because of all these problems the only conclusion I can reach is that if they indeed were the word of God, they are not anymore because they don't say the same things. At that point all we are left with is our best guess and like anything, if you want to get to the truth it makes sense to me to attack the topic from as many angles as possible, drawing on as much data as can possibly be accumulated.

So at the end of the day everyone is going to have their own take, and from my perspective...that's just fine because in my opinion a person's relationship with God should be based upon what they and God can agree upon. I want my relationship with God to be based upon MY relationship with God; not what someone tells me my relationship with God must or should be. When thought of that way, it's natural and appropriate that everyone should reach different conclusions about the teachings of the Bible because everyone's relationship with Him will be unique.

What I think is not appropriate (and frankly one of the main teachings of the Bible and of Jesus) is to insist that everyone else must abide by the terms of your relationship with God. THAT'S the problem I have with organized religion, the Church, the televangelists, etc. It's that they demand that we have a relationship with God on their terms and not the terms that we as individuals develop ourselves.

So when it comes to homosexuals....you know....I can't find anywhere in scriptures where it says "oppress the gays". I can't see anything in the teachings of Jesus that says "make gays second class citizens", "take away their dignity as human beings", etc. I see a lot written in the scriptures about "mind your own damned business and let God sort it out".

So from my perspective, drawing on a lifetime of research I have to say: "let people develop the relationship that they choose to develop" and if homosexuality is truly an abomination to God I have faith in Her that she will be able to sort that out by Herself. Until then, mine is to be tolerant, to be patient, and to focus on my own character defects and my own relationship with the Lord. I believe that is what Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Lao-Tzu, etc....the great masters of life and of God would tell me to do.

 

[Foxfyre]

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

No, I defend Blue because I trust him to be coming from a place he arrived at through study and considerable thought whether or not I agree with his conclusionsl (Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.)

But I will also defend Newby as having an open mind and a willingness to speak it--maybe not as prolificly as some of the rest of it--and who has been more than tolerant with some of my more unorthodox interpretations of scripture whether or not she agreed with it. I think maybe she misinterpreted Blue's point, but both have a point of view and I suspect will be able to work it out.

 

[BluePhantom]

No, I defend Blue because I trust him to be coming from a place he arrived at through study and considerable thought whether or not I agree with his conclusionsl (Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.)

And that's the value I think. As I said earlier....I don't want people to listen to what I have to say and treat it as gospel. I have done my own research and through it reached my own conclusions. But Foxfyre, perhaps you have reached different conclusions and those are just as valid as mine.

Again what is important, I think, is the quest for God and understanding of His teaching. I have total tolerance for those who have undertaken that quest and reached different conclusions...in fact I welcome it because perhaps there is something there that i can learn from and apply in my own life and in my own relationship with God.

I have very little tolerance for those who have, as I have said, just believe what they are told to believe and beat people up with it. I don't quarrel with those who believe what they are told to believe and limit it to themselves. That's fine and if they gain meaning and a spiritual connection with God through that, then who am I to interfere? You know? It's when they go that extra step of saying "this must happen to someone else because I believe what someone else has told me to believe and I never questioned it" that I want to strangle people...and that attitude doesn't make me a very good ambassador of God, I know but neither do I profess to be perfect or a "great master".

 

[IndependntLogic]

Oops? In what way? I didn't see a theology degree or any expertise on Greek language or culture/history. Just an "I studied the Bible from different aspects for the last 25 years', most christians have done the same so that doesn't make him an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, do carry on with patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel good.

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

In what way is he biased? I do have a degree in theology (albeit only a bachelor's) and I can tell you that although he has interjected some personal opinion, Phantom has been absolutely accurate. There are things that could be added to what he has posted. For example, ancient Hebrew was written from right to left, with no vowels, no spaces and zero punctuation. So the only thing I could possibly comment on was that in one of his post, he posted the translated version of a couple verses.
However, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense if he had posted something like:

shtklnttrwswlbBht

which is how "The Bible was written like this" would look in English letters and acnient Hebrew syntax and structure.

However he is correct. There were literally hundreds of Gospels, Epistles, Histories and Apocrypha. A bunch of guys would get together, figure out which ones they liked best and make owning what was left, illegal. As in punishable by death.

There is an obvious difference between Phantom and many people here. It is perfectly natural for most people to subscribe to what they are taught by their spiritual leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Phantom has chosen to do real research on his own and come to his own conclusions - and there's nothing wrong with that either.
What drives a lot of people away from Christians and Christianity itself, is the self-righteous intolerance of those who claim to have the only "right" belief.
There is your belief.
There is his belief.
But there is no "right" belief.

Phantom may be more informed than you or others here are. Actually, it's obvious, he is. But why not just talk with people instead of always attacking and slinging petty insults?
Instead of getting so defensive all the time, why not challenge him back. In the case I mentioned about translation, his source was a well-known theologian who is both widely respected and also sometimes despised. If the authoris who I think it is (it's been over 20 years ince college!), he's been around forever and was controversial from day one.
So why not have a discussion?
Or is anger and pettiness the example you want to show for those wondering what Christians are like?

 

[BluePhantom]

It is perfectly natural for most people to subscribe to what they are taught by their spiritual leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Phantom has chosen to do real research on his own and come to his own conclusions - and there's nothing wrong with that either.
What drives a lot of people away from Christians and Christianity itself, is the self-righteous intolerance of those who claim to have the only "right" belief.
There is your belief.
There is his belief.
But there is no "right" belief.

Hallelujah! Amen! Praise the Lord! SOMEBODY RUN!!!!


Seriously though, this is it right on the nose. It's not the conclusions that are important really....that's between God and the individual. It's the insistence that "my way is the only right way and as such all of society must be adapted according to 'my' way" that is the problem. The entire thing about homosexuality is, in my opinion, based on precisely that way of thinking. So from where I stand....let them marry and God be praised. There is more love in the world, there is more love and respect for fellow mankind that way...and if it's an abomination God is perfectly capable of taking care of it Himself.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, I defend Blue because I trust him to be coming from a place he arrived at through study and considerable thought whether or not I agree with his conclusionsl (Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.)

And that's the value I think. As I said earlier....I don't want people to listen to what I have to say and treat it as gospel. I have done my own research and through it reached my own conclusions. But Foxfyre, perhaps you have reached different conclusions and those are just as valid as mine.

Again what is important, I think, is the quest for God and understanding of His teaching. I have total tolerance for those who have undertaken that quest and reached different conclusions...in fact I welcome it because perhaps there is something there that i can learn from and apply in my own life and in my own relationship with God.

I have very little tolerance for those who have, as I have said, just believe what they are told to believe and beat people up with it. I don't quarrel with those who believe what they are told to believe and limit it to themselves. That's fine and if they gain meaning and a spiritual connection with God through that, then who am I to interfere? You know? It's when they go that extra step of saying "this must happen to someone else because I believe what someone else has told me to believe and I never questioned it" that I want to strangle people...and that attitude doesn't make me a very good ambassador of God, I know but neither do I profess to be perfect or a "great master".

That's what I tell my students. If they want an orthodox Bible class like they had in Sunday School as kids they might as well leave because they were going to be very unhappy with my class. Those that stay, will be required to think, consider alternate views, and be challenged to see things differently than they probably had always been taught. I don't require anybody to accept or believe anything that we deal with in class, but I do require an open mind and a willingness to at least see something in a different way.

As a result, I think we do real Bible study.

I also believe as you do that too often Christians do Church rather than practice Christianity and be the Church. Evenso, I have seen God do some amazing things through the most fundamentalist among us and the most unorthodox among us and everything in between. I am most grateful that God uses imperfect people.