Jesus on Marriage...

[IndependntLogic]

It is perfectly natural for most people to subscribe to what they are taught by their spiritual leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Phantom has chosen to do real research on his own and come to his own conclusions - and there's nothing wrong with that either.
What drives a lot of people away from Christians and Christianity itself, is the self-righteous intolerance of those who claim to have the only "right" belief.
There is your belief.
There is his belief.
But there is no "right" belief.

Hallelujah! Amen! Praise the Lord! SOMEBODY RUN!!!!


Seriously though, this is it right on the nose. It's not the conclusions that are important really....that's between God and the individual. It's the insistence that "my way is the only right way and as such all of society must be adapted according to 'my' way" that is the problem. The entire thing about homosexuality is, in my opinion, based on precisely that way of thinking. So from where I stand....let them marry and God be praised. There is more love in the world, there is more love and respect for fellow mankind that way...and if it's an abomination God is perfectly capable of taking care of it Himself.

God is capable of taking care of Herself? Well yes, I suppose.
And there it is.
What exacerbates this problem is the tendency of the people you describe to become outright hostile and attacking if someone so much as asks them a question.
As I posted earlier from my book the 2012 Las Vegas Times Dictionary (Available on Amazon!):

Bible: n A holy tome which tells people four things:
1. There is one God and He is not found in a church.
2. Don’t judge others, focus on your own path.
3. Love and tolerate everyone. Especially those you might be tempted to look down upon or call your enemies.
4. Don’t go around hurting or murdering each other. Really, it’s not very nice and God doesn’t like it.

The result of man’s interpretation of this book has been:

1. The belief that God can only be found in a church – and it must be the right one.
2. The condemnation by members of one church, of others who do not go to the same church.
3. A self-righteousness and judgmental intolerance of anyone deemed “sinful” by those who consider their own sins to be of superior quality and
4. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, KKK, bombing of planned parenthood centers, and the election of Conservative politicians.

 

[BluePhantom]

That's what I tell my students. If they want an orthodox Bible class like they had in Sunday School as kids they might as well leave because they were going to be very unhappy with my class. Those that stay, will be required to think, consider alternate views, and be challenged to see things differently than they probably had always been taught. I don't require anybody to accept or believe anything that we deal with in class, but I do require an open mind and a willingness to at least see something in a different way.

As a result, I think we do real Bible study.

sounds like a class I would love to sit in on and learn from

I also believe as you do that too often Christians do Church rather than practice Christianity and be the Church. Evenso, I have seen God do some amazing things through the most fundamentalist among us and the most unorthodox among us and everything in between. I am most grateful that God uses imperfect people.

I have seen God do some of the most incredible things and I have received some incredible blessings from Him and witnessed some things that are so absolutely kick ass that mere words cannot describe them. I also think though that those come from moments of intense communication with the Holy Spirit (and a little bit of m-theory tossed in sometimes. ). I believe that there were those that were in perfect communication with God....Jesus, Muhammad, Buddah....the "great masters" I spoke of earlier. I think at times in our life each of us has moments where we reach that. Buddhists would call it reaching Nirvana...a time when you just click with everything, but for most of us it doesn't last very long...perhaps mere moments. For them...they lived their lives that way. They had such a perfect understanding and communication with God and the Holy Spirit that it was their norm instead of their "moment of Nirvana".

 

[BluePhantom]

It is perfectly natural for most people to subscribe to what they are taught by their spiritual leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Phantom has chosen to do real research on his own and come to his own conclusions - and there's nothing wrong with that either.
What drives a lot of people away from Christians and Christianity itself, is the self-righteous intolerance of those who claim to have the only "right" belief.
There is your belief.
There is his belief.
But there is no "right" belief.

Hallelujah! Amen! Praise the Lord! SOMEBODY RUN!!!!


Seriously though, this is it right on the nose. It's not the conclusions that are important really....that's between God and the individual. It's the insistence that "my way is the only right way and as such all of society must be adapted according to 'my' way" that is the problem. The entire thing about homosexuality is, in my opinion, based on precisely that way of thinking. So from where I stand....let them marry and God be praised. There is more love in the world, there is more love and respect for fellow mankind that way...and if it's an abomination God is perfectly capable of taking care of it Himself.

God is capable of taking care of Herself? Well yes, I suppose.
And there it is.
What exacerbates this problem is the tendency of the people you describe to become outright hostile and attacking if someone so much as asks them a question.
As I posted earlier from my book the 2012 Las Vegas Times Dictionary (Available on Amazon!):

Bible: n A holy tome which tells people four things:
1. There is one God and He is not found in a church.
2. Don’t judge others, focus on your own path.
3. Love and tolerate everyone. Especially those you might be tempted to look down upon or call your enemies.
4. Don’t go around hurting or murdering each other. Really, it’s not very nice and God doesn’t like it.

The result of man’s interpretation of this book has been:

1. The belief that God can only be found in a church – and it must be the right one.
2. The condemnation by members of one church, of others who do not go to the same church.
3. A self-righteousness and judgmental intolerance of anyone deemed “sinful” by those who consider their own sins to be of superior quality and
4. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, KKK, bombing of planned parenthood centers, and the election of Conservative politicians.

Well I havent read your book IL, but I am going to have a look at it. I seem to agree with your premise and as Ravi alluded to: I always welcome a little confirmation bias.

 

[BluePhantom]

you know what would be really cool Foxy? To take you, me, Independent Logic, Boop, Ravi...select others that really want to get into the nuts and bolts of this, create a private group and invite people whose minds are open to an indepth exploration from all these perspectives we have been discussing (history, language, culture, etc) and just break them down...bounce interpretations and ideas off each other, suggests books and things for each other to look at to share our knowledge and understanding, and let each person reach their own conclusions yet challenging the others with their own insights.

I know there is a way to create a private group, but I don't know how to do it.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Hallelujah! Amen! Praise the Lord! SOMEBODY RUN!!!!


Seriously though, this is it right on the nose. It's not the conclusions that are important really....that's between God and the individual. It's the insistence that "my way is the only right way and as such all of society must be adapted according to 'my' way" that is the problem. The entire thing about homosexuality is, in my opinion, based on precisely that way of thinking. So from where I stand....let them marry and God be praised. There is more love in the world, there is more love and respect for fellow mankind that way...and if it's an abomination God is perfectly capable of taking care of it Himself.

God is capable of taking care of Herself? Well yes, I suppose.
And there it is.
What exacerbates this problem is the tendency of the people you describe to become outright hostile and attacking if someone so much as asks them a question.
As I posted earlier from my book the 2012 Las Vegas Times Dictionary (Available on Amazon!):

Bible: n A holy tome which tells people four things:
1. There is one God and He is not found in a church.
2. Don’t judge others, focus on your own path.
3. Love and tolerate everyone. Especially those you might be tempted to look down upon or call your enemies.
4. Don’t go around hurting or murdering each other. Really, it’s not very nice and God doesn’t like it.

The result of man’s interpretation of this book has been:

1. The belief that God can only be found in a church – and it must be the right one.
2. The condemnation by members of one church, of others who do not go to the same church.
3. A self-righteousness and judgmental intolerance of anyone deemed “sinful” by those who consider their own sins to be of superior quality and
4. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, KKK, bombing of planned parenthood centers, and the election of Conservative politicians.

Well I havent read your book IL, but I am going to have a look at it. I seem to agree with your premise and as Ravi alluded to: I always welcome a little confirmation bias.

it's actually a humorous dictionary with lots of humorous posters and such. it's selling SO well that um, it's a good thing I own a business...
here' one of the posters:

 

[IndependntLogic]

God is capable of taking care of Herself? Well yes, I suppose.
And there it is.
What exacerbates this problem is the tendency of the people you describe to become outright hostile and attacking if someone so much as asks them a question.
As I posted earlier from my book the 2012 Las Vegas Times Dictionary (Available on Amazon!):

Bible: n A holy tome which tells people four things:
1. There is one God and He is not found in a church.
2. Don’t judge others, focus on your own path.
3. Love and tolerate everyone. Especially those you might be tempted to look down upon or call your enemies.
4. Don’t go around hurting or murdering each other. Really, it’s not very nice and God doesn’t like it.

The result of man’s interpretation of this book has been:

1. The belief that God can only be found in a church – and it must be the right one.
2. The condemnation by members of one church, of others who do not go to the same church.
3. A self-righteousness and judgmental intolerance of anyone deemed “sinful” by those who consider their own sins to be of superior quality and
4. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, KKK, bombing of planned parenthood centers, and the election of Conservative politicians.

Well I havent read your book IL, but I am going to have a look at it. I seem to agree with your premise and as Ravi alluded to: I always welcome a little confirmation bias.

it's actually a humorous dictionary with lots of humorous posters and such. it's selling SO well that um, it's a good thing I own a business...
here' one of the posters:

Oops. let's try again.

 

[BluePhantom]

God is capable of taking care of Herself? Well yes, I suppose.
And there it is.
What exacerbates this problem is the tendency of the people you describe to become outright hostile and attacking if someone so much as asks them a question.
As I posted earlier from my book the 2012 Las Vegas Times Dictionary (Available on Amazon!):

Bible: n A holy tome which tells people four things:
1. There is one God and He is not found in a church.
2. Don’t judge others, focus on your own path.
3. Love and tolerate everyone. Especially those you might be tempted to look down upon or call your enemies.
4. Don’t go around hurting or murdering each other. Really, it’s not very nice and God doesn’t like it.

The result of man’s interpretation of this book has been:

1. The belief that God can only be found in a church – and it must be the right one.
2. The condemnation by members of one church, of others who do not go to the same church.
3. A self-righteousness and judgmental intolerance of anyone deemed “sinful” by those who consider their own sins to be of superior quality and
4. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, KKK, bombing of planned parenthood centers, and the election of Conservative politicians.

Well I havent read your book IL, but I am going to have a look at it. I seem to agree with your premise and as Ravi alluded to: I always welcome a little confirmation bias.

it's actually a humorous dictionary with lots of humorous posters and such. it's selling SO well that um, it's a good thing I own a business...
here' one of the posters:

Yeah I wrote a book once too....it really sucked.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well I havent read your book IL, but I am going to have a look at it. I seem to agree with your premise and as Ravi alluded to: I always welcome a little confirmation bias.

it's actually a humorous dictionary with lots of humorous posters and such. it's selling SO well that um, it's a good thing I own a business...
here' one of the posters:

Oops. let's try again.

Nice...btw I got that group started I referenced below. Sent you an invite. Make sure you subscribe to the group if you wish to join.

 

[IndependntLogic]

it's actually a humorous dictionary with lots of humorous posters and such. it's selling SO well that um, it's a good thing I own a business...
here' one of the posters:

Oops. let's try again.

Nice...btw I got that group started I referenced below. Sent you an invite. Make sure you subscribe to the group if you wish to join.

Already did

 

[Ravi]

It is perfectly natural for most people to subscribe to what they are taught by their spiritual leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Phantom has chosen to do real research on his own and come to his own conclusions - and there's nothing wrong with that either.
What drives a lot of people away from Christians and Christianity itself, is the self-righteous intolerance of those who claim to have the only "right" belief.
There is your belief.
There is his belief.
But there is no "right" belief.

Hallelujah! Amen! Praise the Lord! SOMEBODY RUN!!!!


Seriously though, this is it right on the nose. It's not the conclusions that are important really....that's between God and the individual. It's the insistence that "my way is the only right way and as such all of society must be adapted according to 'my' way" that is the problem. The entire thing about homosexuality is, in my opinion, based on precisely that way of thinking. So from where I stand....let them marry and God be praised. There is more love in the world, there is more love and respect for fellow mankind that way...and if it's an abomination God is perfectly capable of taking care of it Himself.

That's a very good point. God doesn't need man to make laws to force people to conform to his laws. In fact, isn't that always the argument against welfare from many of the Christians?

 

[Newby]

Studied it from a historical, linguistic and culteral perspective under who? Where did you come about the linguistic expertise in order to study it from that perspective?

I have a college education, graduated with a major in Business Information Technology, a minor in Comp. Sci, and I'm working on an MBA. I've studied the Bible for as long as you have, almost, you must be older than I am. But, none of that makes me an expert in Greek linguistics or Greek text to speak in any authority about translations of the text. My point is, you know what you've read somewhere, same as everybody else who's spent any time on this topic and cared to learn more. Who's to say how accurate your sources are?

I understand your point...essentially "one's opinion is only as good as the source information." It's a fair question and I don't have an issue with it.

My sources have been varied and many. My purpose for studying history in college and pursuing the study of history after graduation through further college courses, reading, etc was for the purpose of understanding history to further an understanding of the Bible. When I discuss the "history, languages, cultures, etc" my personal point of expertise is in the history and cultures part. That is where I have performed the majority of formal and independent study. But I quickly learned that understanding history and culture was not enough. Understanding the languages was important, understanding traditions was important, etc

For the languages part I historically relied on various sources. In college I developed a circle of professors who were experts in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc who were willing to assist me with the linguistics. I maintained those relationships after I graduated and have relied upon them ever since. Through time I have met others who have expertise and are willing to assist me. When I became a teacher I pulled many of my colleagues from the university into that circle. So I have a large group of people who understand what I am trying to do and are willing to assist me in furthering my "search for the real God" so to speak and throughout my life they have been willing to lend me their expertise in specific areas that apply.

In addition I read a LOT and I never take one point of view as gospel. I make sure I read the opposing point of view as well, compare it to what I have discovered to that point, look for evidence that supports or refutes a given point, discuss the results with my colleagues to gain multiple points of view, etc.

So let's say I want to do some research on Pilate's role in the crucifixion. Well first I will read the English translation in the Bible. Then I will research it from a historical perspective through my existing education, additional course work if available, discussions with colleagues and friends who are experts in Roman history, further reading, etc. I will look for information on Pilate specifically (not much there), but I will also look at what Roman Prefects were like in general. What was their role? What did they do? What were their attitudes? Pilate was under Tiberius...what was he like? Did he demand certain things? What was going on in Judea during the reign of Tiberius? How did that impact the culture and perspectives? Etc, etc.

Once I have a pretty good handle on that then I will look at it from a cultural perspective to get an understanding of why a given historical event may have happened in a given way. For example it's a pretty good bet that when Pilate talked to Jesus he was in a fucking shitty mood to begin with. Pilate was almost certainly pulled from a nice comfy estate where his every need was fulfilled to the middle of a city that he probably considered a shithole, was a political powder keg, he knew the Jews were going to be "uppity", etc....BUT he would have had to have been a man who applied Roman law appropriately or Tiberius would have had his head. The Jews are going to be raising all hell and pushing the limits of what they can get away with because it's Passover in a holy city that is occupied by pagans. So I get a handle on that.

Then I will get in touch with my experts in linguistics and we'll discuss what the Bible has to say from a linguistic point of view (and I will use multiple sources and experts to ensure I get multiple perspectives). We will discuss passages in the Bible pertaining to Pilate and discuss the significance of this word vs. that word. What the multiple meaning for this word are...did that meaning change over time? How many ways could it be interpreted?

A lot of this will cross over because history, culture, language, traditions, etc are all somewhat intertwined so I will constantly be referring back to notes I have taken here, a class I have taken there, a conversation with this professor, a conversation with that other professor.

And once it's all done I will think about it....for about a year. Then I will wrap it all up into a conclusion and sit down with all those people and discuss it at length. I will check for accuracy, make sure I understand the contrary points of view, etc.

Now will that be the end of it? No...over time I will gain new insights and new learning and you may see my conclusion adjust a bit here and a bit there....sometimes it changes completely.

So does that make me an "expert"? You are free to reach your own conclusion on that (and frankly I am really not concerned whether you do or not)....but I will say that I feel pretty confident that I have a far greater understanding than the person who stands when he is told to stand, kneels when he is told to kneel, sings when he is told to sing, prays using words he is told to use, and believes what he is told to believe by a guy wearing a robe.

Well, in reading your summation, there is one very important thing that is missing throughout the entire thing. You talk about what 'you' do over and over, how you study, look at history, confer with 'experts', etc... yet you made not one mention of just reading the Bible and relying on the Holy Spirit to guide you in your reading, you do not mention prayer once throughout it either, asking God for clarification and understanding. You only rely on your own intellect or research, and nothing else. To me, that's a big indication that you look at the Bible in an entirely different light than I do. The spiritual aspect isn't mentioned at all among your words, so I think in all your intellectual study of the book, you're missing the most important aspect of it.

And how can you so blindly make a statement such as the one I bolded? How long has it been since you've attended a church? A guy 'wearing a robe?' Sounds like you haven't been in a church in over 30 years. But what I see in those words is disrespect and condescension. On one hand you say to have an 'open mind', but on the other, it appears to me that yours is closed. You make assumptions about people, label them, and then put them down by calling them blind sheep because you don't agree with how you *think* they practice their religion. And I say how you think they practice, because in reality you have absolutely no idea what these people do in their day to day lives. I can tell you that you are comletely and 100% wrong based from my own experiences in my own church. Perhaps you should take the blinders off and visit a few churches before you make such broad based assumptions about Christians today.

I do thank you for taking the time to explain and for being courteous, you don't see that around here very often.

 

[Newby]

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

I think you misunderstand. I have no problem at all with Christianity. I think it's awesome. I have a very big problem with organized churches who misrepresent things (often knowingly) in order to keep their pockets lined and maintain the obedience of the people...and I hate to tell you this sister...but that is not uncommon.

I never said that every preacher or pastor is out to deceive. Some of them are fantastic...but a lot of them aren't. Some of them do study ancient languages and cultures....most of them don't.

Furthermore, as a college professor I will be quick to point out that course work is great but it should not be taken by itself. Professors are going to teach according to their own biases just like anyone else...and they learned what they know from people with other biases just like everyone else.

So no....I have no problem with Christians or Christianity in general. I love the Lord and my search in life has been to become closer with Her. I love Jesus and praise His name....but what Jesus said and what Paul said are sometimes completely opposite. What Jesus said and what Billy Graham says are often polar opposites.

From my experience and research, I have concluded that Christianity as it is practiced today is FAR different than what Jesus was talking about and how it was practiced shortly after his death. You are perfectly free to conclude something else. At the end of the day I really don't care what someone else believes so long as they believe it because they have reached their conclusion through research, meditation, prayer, communication with the spirit, whatever. If it works for someone and gives them meaning in their lives then who am I to tell them they are wrong? What annoys the hell out of me is when people believe what they do because someone in a robe told them to believe it, they never questioned it, they never challenged it, they never researched it, and they go around hammering the shit out of everyone else as a result.

Can you be a little more specific instead of using generalities? Which denominations do you see having clergy or pastors that have not or do not study the historical and linguistic aspect of the Bible? You claim that 'most' don't, so what do you see as 'most'? Which denominations do you see as being 'out to control' people as opposed to teaching about Christ?

What differences do you see with how it was practiced in Jesus's time versus how it's practiced today? And again you reference 'those people' who just do what 'someone in a robe' tell them to do, and even if there are some people who may fit that description, why is your way of learning superior to theirs? Do you disregard all of Paul's teachings since you seem to have a bias against him? If not, then how do you decide what to disregard and what not to disregard?

 

[Newby]

Actually no most Christians have done nothing of the sort. Most Christians read an English version of the Bible and trust a preacher to tell them what it means and they never question it, never research it, never bother to go find out if the translation is accurate..nothing. Just like in Milgram's experiment, an authority figure tells them what to do (or in this case believe) and they accept it without question. THAT'S what most Christians do...as well as most Buddhists, Muslims, etc....it's not a Christian thing, it's a human thing.

Do you have any idea how many people I know that lie, cheat, and steal all week; go church on Sunday and confess it all to receive forgiveness and then go right out the next day and lie, cheat, and steal some more? THAT is your average church going Christian, dude. They stand when they are told to stand, they kneel when they are told to kneel, they sing when they are told to sing....and they don't have a single clue why they are doing it all. Most Christians (most people in general) don't do shit except what they are told to do by someone that looks important.

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

 

[Ravi]

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

Maybe you should reread the OP. The "christian" that started it used Jesus to bash gay people. And rather badly.

 

[del]

Sorry, but now you just sound like your average everyday Christian basher with an agenda. Every preacher or pastor is not out to lie to you, from personal experience I've known many people with theological degrees who study Greek, they study the culture and history of Bibilical times, etc... I don't know where you get your information about what exactly someone with a theology degree is educated in, but I don't think you're accurately representing those who have spent years at school studying what you claim to have studied on your own. If you can't acknowledge that, then all you have is bias and an agenda to go with it.

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

no offense, newby, but if missing the point was an olympic sport, you'd be a gold medalist.

have a nice day

 

[Douger]

Here's yet another take on the matter
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKA9g7Ow4VY]David Allan Coe-pick em lick em stick em - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Buford]

no offense, newby, but from what i've seen anyone who isn't in step with your view of christianity is an *average every day christian basher* in your eyes.

perhaps you should consider the plank in your eye...

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

Maybe you should reread the OP. The "christian" that started it used Jesus to bash gay people. And rather badly.

Jesus said marriage was a man and a woman. Jesus was obviously a bigot. Right?

 

[del]

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

Maybe you should reread the OP. The "christian" that started it used Jesus to bash gay people. And rather badly.

Jesus said marriage was a man and a woman. Jesus was obviously a bigot. Right?

only if you're jesus, bigot.

 

[mal]

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

Maybe you should reread the OP. The "christian" that started it used Jesus to bash gay people. And rather badly.

Jesus said marriage was a man and a woman. Jesus was obviously a bigot. Right?

Don't forget Jesus never Condemned Homosexuality or Beastiality like his Father so Clearly did.

Both are Equally Good and Right using the Idiots Line of Reasoning.



peace...

 

[Ravi]

Well, no offense, Del, but that's just simply not true. I don't start thread after thread here calling out other's people's beliefs and belittling them because of it. This thread was started for that very reason, yet you seem to have no trouble with that? I respect you Del, but in this case I think you let your bias cloud your judgment. As long as you agree with the premise, it doesn't matter if it's belittling or condescending to others, especially if it's aimed at a group that you hold disdain for, i.e. what you see as 'judgmental christians'. I guess I just don't see the people that you agree with as being any different than the so called 'judgmental christians', they're just as judgmental and condescening, they're just from the other side of the fence, i.e. flip side of the same coin. I understand that to meet with your approval, those of us with faith and respect should just take the mockery of our beliefs in silence, so I guess it's good that I care about your approval about as much as you care about mine.

Maybe you should reread the OP. The "christian" that started it used Jesus to bash gay people. And rather badly.

Jesus said marriage was a man and a woman. Jesus was obviously a bigot. Right?

No, he wasn't a bigot. I doubt he'd approve of the way the uber "christians" use Him as a tool. And it's really amusing to watch Newby give tacit approval of using Him as a tool.

Apparently none of you read the interesting post by BP regarding the translation of the passage in the OT.

Confirmation bias strikes again.