Jesus- Son of God. No trinity! Read first.

[Harry Dresden]

and of course none of the original text was...."slightly" changed by religious zealots over the years....to fit their agenda....right?......

I have no doubt that some of the words are changed, not for the purpose of radically changing the general concepts, but just because that is how these professed scholars perceive things to be.

The English Language currently has more words in it than any other language on Earth. 800,000, approximately.

There must be a dozen or so ways to describe pregnancy or the state of being pregnant, if you count "slang words", even.. for instance:

Pregnant
expecting
gestating
knocked up
bun in the oven
Fertilized egg
a sparkle in his daddy's eye
zygote
embryo
fetus
carrying
preggers
two lines showing
showing (as in the belly area is visible)
morning sickness
baby.. bump

Some of these terms can mean other things, too-
"a sparkle in his daddy's eye" can mean that the person has not YET been conceived.. or is only being thought about, planned,etc..
"carrying" can mean anything, besides pregnancy
"two lines showing" could refer to the yellow lines in the street, or anything else
"bump" could indicate that the person has an injury, or be used as an action verb
"showing" can mean real estate, or a child showing off.. or anything else..

Is it possible that some of these written English words are just being "understood" too literally by certain teachers of Christianity?

For instance.. The word that was used to name God was actually removed and replaced with the generic "God", just to help people understand that God is not Jesus. This backfired.

This was going on back in Jesus' time anyways. Believers believe his word, and non believers dont. Thats just how it is. Jesus understands this. It's not a good thing, but it is also not to be seen as some abnormal or "new" development in Christian belief.

ONE can mean:

Numerical 1
Together as one
The best #1
One and the same
United as one
One group or party
etc..

I am just trying to illustrate a point here, that I believe is often overlooked. Much of the dogma related to a belief in a trinity is based on fictitious lies based on nothing more than bad teachings, and equally poor understandings of linguistics.

if i remember correctly...is there not something in revelation stating that if one word is changed in this book.....eternal damnation for the one who changed it?.....sounds pretty definite to me....it cant be up to one guy or group to decide what is being said....it has to be ...you read it,you decide...

 

[Harry Dresden]

Same as "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc".. Jesus makes several references to oneness that include all of the people uniting together as one.

It is not a literal term meaning "We are one and the same entity" - it simply means they are united. There is also talk of the bridegroom and such. It is like a marriage. God's son is married to God's plan. We should also be "one" with God, just like Jesus.

WWJD? Be one. And tell us to be one with each other, and with God, as well. That is not telling us to become each other, or to manifest ourselves into becoming God. Its a unity thing.

hey jd!

i don't think it is the same as: "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc"

the reason it is not the same is because never ever was it said that we are in God...only God is in us..... where it is said, ''Jesus is in God...'', to me, leads to him being an entity of God, a manifestation of God made flesh.

I and the Father are ONE.... not the father is in me...BUT ARE ONE....

I thoroughly understand how this is all too hard to accept and your way of thought is certainly an easier path to take, one that seems as though it has more sense to it as well...and other smart people, highly religious people such as issac newton, agree with you on this....

but for me, there are many, many, many parts of the Bible on this topic that just doesn't fit your way of viewing it in my opinion, as well.

we have had a very lengthy thread on this where i have gone in to much further detail than here on it at: http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/56635-the-trinity.html

If Yeshua (Jesus) IS God, then please answer this one question that continually bugs me..........

When Yeshua was asked when He would return, He stated "nobody knows the hour or the day when I will return, that is known only to The Father".

So........if Yeshua is God, then why didn't He know when He would return?

exactly....its just like who was Yeshua praying to if he was THEE God here in human form....

 

[Terral]

Hi Smartt:

There is absolutely no reason to 'quote me >>' to then ramble aimlessly about something else.

I find this to be an interesting topic, however, not so great as to cause the kind of hateful talk that it causes.

Scripture says,

"This testimony is true. For this reason (AR)reprove them (AS)severely so that they may be (AT)sound in the faith . . ." Titus 1:13.

The day is coming (Judgment day) when souls will accuse the son of man for 'not' speaking to you even 'more severely' about just these things . . .

The trinity cannot be explained by you or anyone else, perion. It is a concept that appears to be so, but like the very existence of God, cannot be scientifically identified.

Nonsense! I can explain 'The Trinity' to all of you in great detail from many different perspectives until the cows come home, but that is no guarantee that you will believe. I explain the reasons in opening this Topic here.

My salvation does not depend upon my believing in the doctrine of the trinity.

What on God's Green Earth ever made you think for one minute that Smartt is 'saved?' I describe the differences between the "Two Gospels of the New Testament*" on this thread (here) 'and' the differences between the "Two Churches of the New Testament" here. I suppose your salvation does 'not' depend on the Gospel (#2*) either. I also show the differences between the 'Four Baptisms' of the New Testament (CF.com), but that Topic was never introduced on this USMB Forum, because the fact became plainly obvious that nobody here would understand a single word . . .

I do believe Jesus is God, but even that is copmplicated enough that no one can explain it to the satisfaction of all scholars.

Smartt is not very smart then. Scripture says explicitly that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God" (John 1:34, Matt. 16:16, Jn 10:36) and is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb. 13:8). God so loved the world that He gave what?????

"For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His (C)Only Begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.

Christ Jesus is the "One Mediator" BETWEEN God 'AND' Men! (1Tim. 2:5). Right or wrong? Right! Smartt does NOT even know the difference between God 'and' His Only Begotten Son in the person of Jesus Christ our Lord! Jesus is Lord 'AND' God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) ! Right or wrong? Right again! See what I mean? You guys do NOT even begin to know the basics of Jesus Christ the Son of God 101 . . .

It is not like anything. I believe Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God.

Wrong again! Scripture clearly says that God IS NOT A MAN (Num. 23:19)! Right or wrong? Right again! Christ Jesus is the One Mediator 'Between' God 'and' Men, because "He" (Son of God) is something 'between' God 'and' Men!!! You have 'replaced' the "Only True God" (Almighty) with His Only Begotten Son 'and' now you do NOT even begin to know the difference. Here is Christ talking:

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, (A)the Only True God, 'and' Jesus Christ [Son of God] whom (B)You have sent. John 17:3.

Once again we see that God (The Almighty) sent His Only Begotten Son, but Smartt still says that Jesus = God; which knocks the "Only True God" right off His Throne!!!!!!!!! That is what we commonly know as "IDOLATRY"!!!!

I believe it is as true as the existance of God. However, I don't have to be able to prove it true in order to believe it.

Of course not! You can elevate the "Son of God" into the position of "His God and Father" (Rev. 1:6) and spread 'your IDOLATRY' (Rev. 21:8) to everyone . . .

Do NOT blame me for your obvious ERROR in that day. Everyone here has been warned repeatedly . . .

GL,

Terral

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hey Terral.........spewing bullshit and vague charts, sprinkled liberally with Bible verses do not make you look more intelligent, the just make you look like the bum on the corner with the sandwich sign, saying the end of the world is near.

Whack job.

 

[Terral]

Hi Biker:

The reason Catholics can't answer those questions? Simple.......Catholicism is a pagan bastardization of Christianity.

Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism are three witnesses of the "Mystery Of Iniquity/Lawlessness" described by Paul in 2Thes. 2:7-12. These servants of righteousness serve their angel of light (2Cor. 11:14-15) without one clue that they have been baptized into the Beast/Antichrist (left side of the diagram). Unfortunately for most everyone here, you have also been DUPED by Satan and his loyal servants of righteousness . . .

Why else are eggs and rabbits (fertility symbols) showcased during the Spring Solstice (a pagan holiday), when it's supposed to be about the resurrection of Yeshua?

Yeshua? :0) I thought we were writing these posts in English, which makes the Son of God our Lord "Jesus Christ." See what I mean?? :0)

Incidentally.........last year, Easter came before Passover. Now, if Yeshua was in Jerusalem to celebrate Passover before He was crucified, how can we celebrate His resurrection when He hasn't even shown up for Passover?

Christ was sacrificed on the Passover some 2000 years ago and most of these USMB members do NOT know the difference between God 'and' His Only Begotten Son anyway . . .

GL,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Biker:

Hey Terral.........spewing bullshit and vague charts, sprinkled liberally with Bible verses do not make you look more intelligent, the just make you look like the bum on the corner with the sandwich sign, saying the end of the world is near.

Whack job.

They said that John the Baptist had a 'demon' (Luke 7:33) . . . too . . . :0)

GL,

Terral

 

[Harry Dresden]

Unfortunately for most everyone here, you have also been DUPED by Satan and his loyal servants of righteousness . . .

most everyone here?.....ok ill bite....who here is not DUPED by ole Satan himself?......and who the hell are you to say who has been and who hasnt?....

 

[Smartt33]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO JD:

1. You started out with the use of a term, "Contrived Trinity," which leads me immediately to discredit anything you say. However, discussion is good. So, just what part is contrived, and what part is actually from the Scriptures?
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2. You said, " God says in the bible that there is only one God. If there is only one, then it is blasphemous and going against commandment to worship three. " Christians do not worship three Gods, and there is nowhere that you can come close to assuming that in the doctrine of the Trinity.
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3. You said, "They believe (to put it simply) that Jesus is a manifestation of God turning himself into human flesh. " So, clearly you don't know what Christians believe about the Trinity. Certainly not that. Trinity is much deeper than something that silly and simple.
To be "man, Jesus would have to have a human body, and God turning into man is not a human body, thus not man. Man came only from his own kind. Jesus was indeed a man. Jesus was with God in the beginning, and even created everything. That is because Jesus was/is "The Word." The Word became flesh as Jesus born to mankind as a man. This same Jesus is God, for "The Word was with God and the Word was God." He was 100% man, and 100% God. Everything that is man, Jesus is, and everything that is God, Jesus is.

All through the Scriptures we see references to God, and the same references made to Jesus.

You said, " Jesus is to BE made God, later on." Where in the world does this come from? I cannot find any reference to that.
*******************************************

4. You said, " Generally, having to explain something in great detail without verse (also needing to be explained and spun) to back it up, is just a false teaching. " In order to make this claim, I believe you are required to tell what is the spin, and what about the trinity we believe that is not in the Scriptures ("verse"). All of what we believe about the trinity is in the scriptures.

However, no one can explain the trinity. Those who do not believe in the trinity have to "contrive from" and "spin" off of what the scriptures actually say.
*******************************************

5. You said, "People think that a trinity (Father son and Holy Spirit) exists based on there being three mentioned in the bible commonly. However, Jesus was not the only one to perform miracles or counsel and teach." However, nothing about the trinity depends on a trinity member doing miracles, being a counselor, or teaching. Those are not trinity requirements. Christians never consider them as necessary to be a part of the trinity. However, Jesus and God, and the Holy Spirit do all have the same qualities. No one else in the world fits in like Jesus does.
**************************************

6. Some do use the phrase "The Father and I are one" as a reference to Jesus being God. I don't believe it is such a reference.
****************************************

7. "The Father and I are one (actually meaning they are united in effort, not one and the same) and in spite of the fact that Jesus tells us to be "one" with God, and "one" with each other. "

Where does Jesus say this?
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8. The scriptures clearly identify Jesus as God, and there is not really a question about the Holy Spirit.
'If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water'" (John 4:10).

"Jesus answered, 'Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life'" (John 4:13-14).

25The woman said to Him, "I know that (AF)Messiah is coming ((AG)He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "(AH)I who speak to you am He."

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
--Isaiah 9:6
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
--John 1:1-4, 14
"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"
-- John 14:8-9

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--Matthew 1:23
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9. You said, " One side (trinity side, as you can plainly see) seeks to damage and destruct,"
Exactly how do believers in the trinity do this? How do those who don't believe in the trinity not do this? Nothing we say about the trinity can or should wreck your faith, nor do we make an effort to do so.
***********************************

10. You said, in response to my statement that arguing in the wind is a waste, " You are very welcome to join!! I am hoping this will turn into a good solid bible study for us all. I also hope that this forum will help you to know God's love and devotion to us and to YOU. He loves you.. I think you know that, of course, or you wouldn't have come here. He is calling to you.. Time to listen up.. "

This is a very judgmental statement, and a clear indication that you have a desire to dismantle our belief in the trinity. So, that makes you the one who wants to be destructive.

However, I can overlook that because of the awesome relationship I have with God. I have had a real and personal, living and loving, walking and talking, daily relationship with God in Christ for 53 years now. I have studied the scriptures deeply for the last 40 years, to teach it. I have been taught by great seminary professors in the seminary, and also in college. I have been led into awesome learning experiences by the Holy Spirit over the years, many times. I am learning more now, in my older age, than all my previous years. I have a very personal relationship with God, and walk where many Christians will not walk, as I carry my cross to His glory. So, I know the Savior. I am born again. I am called to teach, gifted to teach, and have been teaching in my church for about 28 years. So, I am listening up, and the things you have said are not what I am hearing. While these things are not crucial to my salvation, they are good for discussion. Thanks.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hey Terral, do you really know who the SaTan is?

He's kinda like HaShem's district attorney. His job is to go and let God know what kind of sins you commit as soon as you commit them.

He's also the Angel of Death. Why else do you think that the wages of sin is death?

 

[JD_2B]

Hi Biker:

Hey Terral.........spewing bullshit and vague charts, sprinkled liberally with Bible verses do not make you look more intelligent, the just make you look like the bum on the corner with the sandwich sign, saying the end of the world is near.

Whack job.

They said that John the Baptist had a 'demon' (Luke 7:33) . . . too . . . :0)

GL,

Terral

Actually, it seems that Jesus was scoffing at the Pharisees for asking too many questions.. Jesus was being sarcastic..

28"I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged (Q)God's justice, (R)having been baptized with (S)the baptism of John.

30But the Pharisees and the [a](T)lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

31"To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?

32"They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.'

33"For John the Baptist has come (U)eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'

34"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

35"Yet wisdom (V)is vindicated by all her children."

So I still do not believe in the trinity, but one thing does seem to make TOTAL sense now..

See, Jesus was called the Mighty Counselor, as was God, and the Holy Spirit was said to be poured on all of us from God, and that God is on the right side of one man, while another man is on the right side of God, etc, etc, etc..

God made the light first.. And God IS the word, and the word was with God, etc.. God made BOTH Adam and Jesus in His image..

Jesus said that God has many rooms and that Jesus is in one of them, but that there are rooms for others to be also.. He would talk about the human body and how it does not function properly if one part is separated from the whole..

These and many many many other verses, have lead me to believe that I might understand WHAT God is.. and I think WHAT God is, is FAR more important than WHO God is, or is manifested into..

Gos IS the light, and the word, Adam, Eve, and we are all his Godly descendents, LITERALLY meaning we are all absolutely divine-like in our creation..

God is everything. God is the one supreme entity that cannot be broken, because God is the creator of all things, great and small, animal, plant, human, mineral, light, love, etc, etc.. And since he created so many things in his image, he made us all to be God-like from our inception. God is in US, and we are in him..

Jesus is not God, but God is in Him, just as he is in Me, and I am in Him.

I feel so restored and humbled by this.. And strangely empowered.. I cannot explain this as of now, any better than I just have.. but I feel this connection now that really I can't shake off. I don't WANT to shake it off. I LOVE it. I am in awe of God's GLORY and design.

Now I understand why the bible's commandments and covenants evolved with society and reason.. I want to tell everyone I meet about God. The REALITY of God. A supreme being, yes- but in him, we all are.. In us, he is. He made us in his image.. It makes perfect sense.. And HE and all he has created, is absolutely perfect.

 

[Care4all]

Same as "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc".. Jesus makes several references to oneness that include all of the people uniting together as one.

It is not a literal term meaning "We are one and the same entity" - it simply means they are united. There is also talk of the bridegroom and such. It is like a marriage. God's son is married to God's plan. We should also be "one" with God, just like Jesus.

WWJD? Be one. And tell us to be one with each other, and with God, as well. That is not telling us to become each other, or to manifest ourselves into becoming God. Its a unity thing.

hey jd!

i don't think it is the same as: "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc"

the reason it is not the same is because never ever was it said that we are in God...only God is in us..... where it is said, ''Jesus is in God...'', to me, leads to him being an entity of God, a manifestation of God made flesh.

I and the Father are ONE.... not the father is in me...BUT ARE ONE....

I thoroughly understand how this is all too hard to accept and your way of thought is certainly an easier path to take, one that seems as though it has more sense to it as well...and other smart people, highly religious people such as issac newton, agree with you on this....

but for me, there are many, many, many parts of the Bible on this topic that just doesn't fit your way of viewing it in my opinion, as well.

we have had a very lengthy thread on this where i have gone in to much further detail than here on it at: http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/56635-the-trinity.html

If Yeshua (Jesus) IS God, then please answer this one question that continually bugs me..........

When Yeshua was asked when He would return, He stated "nobody knows the hour or the day when I will return, that is known only to The Father".

So........if Yeshua is God, then why didn't He know when He would return?

hey abs, i just caught this post of yours....i have missed a ton of posts it appears... but here are a couple of links explaining what i have come to believe on your question...

If Jesus is God, then why did He not know the time of His return? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
GOD - MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33). - He worshiped the Father (John 17).
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8) - He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1) - He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59). - He prayed to the Father (John 17).
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15). - He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).
He knows all things (John 21:17). - He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
He gives eternal life (John 10:28). - He died (Rom. 5:8).
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).- He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

 

[Old Rocks]

Does anyone have a good picture of Jesus?

got a picture of george washington?

oh, and you do know the difference between a picture and a painting right?

No, we do not have a painting, or even a good physical description of Jesus. Whomever and whatever he was, his philosophy is a good guide of living. I just wished that many that claim Christianity believed that.

Are you listening, Fatality?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Does anyone have a good picture of Jesus?

got a picture of george washington?

oh, and you do know the difference between a picture and a painting right?

No, we do not have a painting, or even a good physical description of Jesus. Whomever and whatever he was, his philosophy is a good guide of living. I just wished that many that claim Christianity believed that.

Are you listening, Fatality?

Actually, Old Rocks, we DO have an image of Yeshua. It's on roman coins......

This "Jesus coin" was dug up during excavations of Tiberias, an ancient town located along the coast of the Sea of Galilee in present-day Israel.

The town was named in honor of the Roman Emperor Tiberius and was built by Herod Antipas, a son of Herod the Great, during a time when Jesus was still just a teenager.

Tiberias has been popular with tourists and pilgrims for more than 2,000 years. In Roman times, visitors arrived from all over the ancient world to enjoy its 17 natural mineral springs. The town is also close to the city where Mary Magdalene was believed to be born and the site where Jesus is supposed to have fed a crowd of thousands with just a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread.

This coin is believed to have been brought to Tiberias from Constantinople where it was minted by a Christian pilgrim around the 11th century. It's backside bears the inscription "Jesus Christ King of Kings."

More Jesus coins were found inside a row of shops, along with oil lamps, glass and stone vessels, jewelry and frescoes.

LiveScience.com

 

[JD_2B]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO JD:

1. You started out with the use of a term, "Contrived Trinity," which leads me immediately to discredit anything you say. However, discussion is good. So, just what part is contrived, and what part is actually from the Scriptures?
***************************************

My previous posts should give you my prior answers to all of this, however I have had a lot of enlightening today, and feel that although the trinity is not quite right, it is a simple way of explaining what God is. Not Jesus, but more..

2. You said, " God says in the bible that there is only one God. If there is only one, then it is blasphemous and going against commandment to worship three. " Christians do not worship three Gods, and there is nowhere that you can come close to assuming that in the doctrine of the Trinity.
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OK I understand thats how you see it, thanks to Care4all- but if this is true, then why does anyone worship Jesus as God, and not God?

3. You said, "They believe (to put it simply) that Jesus is a manifestation of God turning himself into human flesh. " So, clearly you don't know what Christians believe about the Trinity. Certainly not that. Trinity is much deeper than something that silly and simple.
To be "man, Jesus would have to have a human body, and God turning into man is not a human body, thus not man. Man came only from his own kind. Jesus was indeed a man. Jesus was with God in the beginning, and even created everything. That is because Jesus was/is "The Word." The Word became flesh as Jesus born to mankind as a man. This same Jesus is God, for "The Word was with God and the Word was God." He was 100% man, and 100% God. Everything that is man, Jesus is, and everything that is God, Jesus is.

All through the Scriptures we see references to God, and the same references made to Jesus.

Why do they keep referring to the verses saying that the word was made into flesh, and what not, and WORSHIPPING A MAN who is NOT God, then? And why did Jesus keep saying he did not work on his own behalf but that of his Father, and only by the authority given to him by his Father? And why does it say that GOD raised Jesus, because Jesus could not raise himself? And why then, are God and Jesus still considered a two party team, even in Revelations? I have a much better explanation than all this horseshit.

You said, " Jesus is to BE made God, later on." Where in the world does this come from? I cannot find any reference to that.
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It says in Revelations, at the end, that we will inherit the kingdom of heaven.. I am sorry I misread it, Jesus does not inherit the role of God, apparently. He and God are still a team, just like in the beginning, from the moment Jesus was made BY God.. when God said "Let there be Light".. and there was..

4. You said, " Generally, having to explain something in great detail without verse (also needing to be explained and spun) to back it up, is just a false teaching. " In order to make this claim, I believe you are required to tell what is the spin, and what about the trinity we believe that is not in the Scriptures ("verse"). All of what we believe about the trinity is in the scriptures.

However, no one can explain the trinity. Those who do not believe in the trinity have to "contrive from" and "spin" off of what the scriptures actually say.
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No its not. The trinity is NOT in the scriptures.. but a deeper understanding of Jesus and God (separate, not equal in Stature- Jesus was the light, MADE by God.. the Lamb of God.. never God.. although he had a lot of God in him.. this is hard to explain without verse, and I would rather not do a looong drawn out post.. I will say that trinitarians were a heck of a lot closer to the truth than I gave them credit for, though.. =) )

5. You said, "People think that a trinity (Father son and Holy Spirit) exists based on there being three mentioned in the bible commonly. However, Jesus was not the only one to perform miracles or counsel and teach." However, nothing about the trinity depends on a trinity member doing miracles, being a counselor, or teaching. Those are not trinity requirements. Christians never consider them as necessary to be a part of the trinity. However, Jesus and God, and the Holy Spirit do all have the same qualities. No one else in the world fits in like Jesus does.
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Trinity means three, and the basis is on the F, S and HS. However, there is also the mighty counselor, and other sons of God, as it is written in the bible. It is illogical, then, to proclaim that Jesus is God. This is really what I am against.. Jesus may be God-LIKE, but he is just NOT a God. He was a sheep, like us- God's only begotten son, who was sent here to save us from our sins, and to show us that we will have a second chance at survival and mercy.

6. Some do use the phrase "The Father and I are one" as a reference to Jesus being God. I don't believe it is such a reference.
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??? Explain that please.. You don't believe that is a biblical reference? Well, please, do go through the thread again and you will see all the posts I have made regarding this utterance of Jesus.
And really, why worship Jesus if you don't believe he is God. Why are you defending this if you don't believe in it? Who do you worship? I think nobody because you seem very indifferent overall.

7. "The Father and I are one (actually meaning they are united in effort, not one and the same) and in spite of the fact that Jesus tells us to be "one" with God, and "one" with each other. "

Where does Jesus say this?
*********************************

John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

8. The scriptures clearly identify Jesus as God, and there is not really a question about the Holy Spirit.
'If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water'" (John 4:10).

Yes- God created Jesus and GAVE him to us, a MAN, as a sacrifice to save us from our sins, and everlasting death. That is the greatest gift of all.

"Jesus answered, 'Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life'" (John 4:13-14).

That does not identify Jesus as God. It identifies him as our savior. That is who he is. Our savior.

25The woman said to Him, "I know that (AF)Messiah is coming ((AG)He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "(AH)I who speak to you am He."

Messiah= Christ/ Savior.. Not God.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7

Misquoting the bible now? It says "these three are in agreement". They are not one and the same, though. I am in agreement with God. God and I, are as such, ONE, also. That does not make me a God, though

"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
--Isaiah 9:6

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8- That would indicate not a trinity, but an octouplet. More than three.. Counting Jesus, God, and the holy Spirit, you got eight.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
--John 1:1-4, 14

The only begotten of the father.. To be heralded and thanked.. But not to be prayed to.

"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"
-- John 14:8-9

Yes this is true, because Jesus told us the words of God.. I also see you are being ignorant to the next verse, as you played dumb to verse 10 of John 14, as I quoted in this post for you.. He is in me and I am in him. That makes sense. Its a love thing, for Jesus, and a Created by in my image thing for God. Just like Adam was..

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--Matthew 1:23
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"They shall call him" does not indicate that is who he is, though.. Just the prophet letting us know of what is to come. God said:

21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins."

9. You said, " One side (trinity side, as you can plainly see) seeks to damage and destruct,"
Exactly how do believers in the trinity do this? How do those who don't believe in the trinity not do this? Nothing we say about the trinity can or should wreck your faith, nor do we make an effort to do so.
***********************************

Uhhhh if you aren't glorifying the one true God, then you are not one with him, either. This, to God, is damaging and destructive. It is unholy and against his own commandment to us.

10. You said, in response to my statement that arguing in the wind is a waste, " You are very welcome to join!! I am hoping this will turn into a good solid bible study for us all. I also hope that this forum will help you to know God's love and devotion to us and to YOU. He loves you.. I think you know that, of course, or you wouldn't have come here. He is calling to you.. Time to listen up.. "

This is a very judgmental statement, and a clear indication that you have a desire to dismantle our belief in the trinity. So, that makes you the one who wants to be destructive

.

NO You are being really sensitive. I was GENUINELY EMBRACING YOU TO JOIN THE DISCUSSION. No need to get your feelings so badly hurt over that. Get over yourself. You have said in your own post things that were SO overwhelmingly FLIPPANT that I thought you were joining the discussion because you were looking for something bigger out of your life. Excuuuuse me for welcoming you- I promise NEVER to do that again!!!

However, I can overlook that because of the awesome relationship I have with God. I have had a real and personal, living and loving, walking and talking, daily relationship with God in Christ for 53 years now. I have studied the scriptures deeply for the last 40 years, to teach it. I have been taught by great seminary professors in the seminary, and also in college. I have been led into awesome learning experiences by the Holy Spirit over the years, many times. I am learning more now, in my older age, than all my previous years. I have a very personal relationship with God, and walk where many Christians will not walk, as I carry my cross to His glory. So, I know the Savior. I am born again. I am called to teach, gifted to teach, and have been teaching in my church for about 28 years. So, I am listening up, and the things you have said are not what I am hearing. While these things are not crucial to my salvation, they are good for discussion. Thanks.

Stop ignoring scripture, then, Mr Self professed scholar.. You are spreading the wrong teachings. I am done with you.. I dont make time for serpents, liars, and ignorant people, particularly ones who are far too well educated on the bible to pretend that they were unaware of certain verses that came RIGHT AFTER the one they themselves preach..

Oh and being a preacher does NOT put YOU above anyone else, either- in fact, teaching things WRONGLY only puts you in danger. I will pray once for you.. Then I wash my hands of this.

 

[Smartt33]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO JD:

1. You started out with the use of a term, "Contrived Trinity," which leads me immediately to discredit anything you say. However, discussion is good. So, just what part is contrived, and what part is actually from the Scriptures?
***************************************

My previous posts should give you my prior answers to all of this, however I have had a lot of enlightening today, and feel that although the trinity is not quite right, it is a simple way of explaining what God is. Not Jesus, but more..

2. You said, " God says in the bible that there is only one God. If there is only one, then it is blasphemous and going against commandment to worship three. " Christians do not worship three Gods, and there is nowhere that you can come close to assuming that in the doctrine of the Trinity.
****************************************

OK I understand thats how you see it, thanks to Care4all- but if this is true, then why does anyone worship Jesus as God, and not God?



Why do they keep referring to the verses saying that the word was made into flesh, and what not, and WORSHIPPING A MAN who is NOT God, then? And why did Jesus keep saying he did not work on his own behalf but that of his Father, and only by the authority given to him by his Father? And why does it say that GOD raised Jesus, because Jesus could not raise himself? And why then, are God and Jesus still considered a two party team, even in Revelations? I have a much better explanation than all this horseshit.



It says in Revelations, at the end, that we will inherit the kingdom of heaven.. I am sorry I misread it, Jesus does not inherit the role of God, apparently. He and God are still a team, just like in the beginning, from the moment Jesus was made BY God.. when God said "Let there be Light".. and there was..



No its not. The trinity is NOT in the scriptures.. but a deeper understanding of Jesus and God (separate, not equal in Stature- Jesus was the light, MADE by God.. the Lamb of God.. never God.. although he had a lot of God in him.. this is hard to explain without verse, and I would rather not do a looong drawn out post.. I will say that trinitarians were a heck of a lot closer to the truth than I gave them credit for, though.. =) )



Trinity means three, and the basis is on the F, S and HS. However, there is also the mighty counselor, and other sons of God, as it is written in the bible. It is illogical, then, to proclaim that Jesus is God. This is really what I am against.. Jesus may be God-LIKE, but he is just NOT a God. He was a sheep, like us- God's only begotten son, who was sent here to save us from our sins, and to show us that we will have a second chance at survival and mercy.



??? Explain that please.. You don't believe that is a biblical reference? Well, please, do go through the thread again and you will see all the posts I have made regarding this utterance of Jesus.
And really, why worship Jesus if you don't believe he is God. Why are you defending this if you don't believe in it? Who do you worship? I think nobody because you seem very indifferent overall.


John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.



Yes- God created Jesus and GAVE him to us, a MAN, as a sacrifice to save us from our sins, and everlasting death. That is the greatest gift of all.



That does not identify Jesus as God. It identifies him as our savior. That is who he is. Our savior.



Messiah= Christ/ Savior.. Not God.



Misquoting the bible now? It says "these three are in agreement". They are not one and the same, though. I am in agreement with God. God and I, are as such, ONE, also. That does not make me a God, though



1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8- That would indicate not a trinity, but an octouplet. More than three.. Counting Jesus, God, and the holy Spirit, you got eight.



The only begotten of the father.. To be heralded and thanked.. But not to be prayed to.



Yes this is true, because Jesus told us the words of God.. I also see you are being ignorant to the next verse, as you played dumb to verse 10 of John 14, as I quoted in this post for you.. He is in me and I am in him. That makes sense. Its a love thing, for Jesus, and a Created by in my image thing for God. Just like Adam was..



"They shall call him" does not indicate that is who he is, though.. Just the prophet letting us know of what is to come. God said:

21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins."



Uhhhh if you aren't glorifying the one true God, then you are not one with him, either. This, to God, is damaging and destructive. It is unholy and against his own commandment to us.

10. You said, in response to my statement that arguing in the wind is a waste, " You are very welcome to join!! I am hoping this will turn into a good solid bible study for us all. I also hope that this forum will help you to know God's love and devotion to us and to YOU. He loves you.. I think you know that, of course, or you wouldn't have come here. He is calling to you.. Time to listen up.. "

This is a very judgmental statement, and a clear indication that you have a desire to dismantle our belief in the trinity. So, that makes you the one who wants to be destructive

.

NO You are being really sensitive. I was GENUINELY EMBRACING YOU TO JOIN THE DISCUSSION. No need to get your feelings so badly hurt over that. Get over yourself. You have said in your own post things that were SO overwhelmingly FLIPPANT that I thought you were joining the discussion because you were looking for something bigger out of your life. Excuuuuse me for welcoming you- I promise NEVER to do that again!!!

However, I can overlook that because of the awesome relationship I have with God. I have had a real and personal, living and loving, walking and talking, daily relationship with God in Christ for 53 years now. I have studied the scriptures deeply for the last 40 years, to teach it. I have been taught by great seminary professors in the seminary, and also in college. I have been led into awesome learning experiences by the Holy Spirit over the years, many times. I am learning more now, in my older age, than all my previous years. I have a very personal relationship with God, and walk where many Christians will not walk, as I carry my cross to His glory. So, I know the Savior. I am born again. I am called to teach, gifted to teach, and have been teaching in my church for about 28 years. So, I am listening up, and the things you have said are not what I am hearing. While these things are not crucial to my salvation, they are good for discussion. Thanks.

Stop ignoring scripture, then, Mr Self professed scholar.. You are spreading the wrong teachings. I am done with you.. I dont make time for serpents, liars, and ignorant people, particularly ones who are far too well educated on the bible to pretend that they were unaware of certain verses that came RIGHT AFTER the one they themselves preach..

Oh and being a preacher does NOT put YOU above anyone else, either- in fact, teaching things WRONGLY only puts you in danger. I will pray once for you.. Then I wash my hands of this.

It is clear that you are intent on being polite in just calling me a fool. You are not paying attention to what I am saying, and you are just proclaiming your beliefs. I

I understand your beliefs, I disagree. I believe the things that I have said.

You keep repeating yourself and calling what I believe contrived, false teachings, and the likes.

I believe the Unitatians have it wrong, and I will just leave it there. Just like the JWs, you guys seem to be brainwashed into the way you believe. I do independent study, and don't follow a religion or denomination. I do accept the some of the doctrines of, say, the Baptist church, and even some of the charasmatic doctrines to some degree, however I have learned that my teacher is the Holy Spirit, and I learn from Him.

BTW, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

Is God going to be the Judge, or Jesus?

Will every knee bow and every tongue proclaim that Jesus is Lord?

Is Jesus the only way to Salvation?

Did Jesus create everything?

Is Jesus the Word?

Was Jesus there with God in the beginning?

Is Jesus the eternal King?

Is Jesus the counselor?

Can Jesus forgive sin?

How can something be "with God," and at the same time "be God?"

In John 1 there is a lot that I thing the Unitarians have missed because they have a doctrine that disagrees with John 1.

 

[Care4all]

Jesus WAS a man in physical nature with God as His spiritual nature while here on earth, but once He died and was resurrected He was GLORIFIED, and no longer a man with the earthly struggles but God...he came and went as pleases, through walls, through caves, appearing here and there.....

Christ was here as a man and walked among us to show us all The Way.... As a man, he had all characteristics of such...he felt sorrow and pain and temptation as all of us....but He was perfect in His ways, through all of this, He was the pure, sacrificial Lamb, who washes away sin as the Lamb that was sacrificed by the Jews on the alter represented.

Once He took His last breath....it was DONE, finished....He was Glorified and we had a Way to God...

 

[Charles Stucker]

i seriously doubt you would accept anything said to you becasue you think youre right. but the fact is youre just making shit up, and your position cannot be substantiated nor sustained.

I can attest from personal experience the JD is open minded enough to accept a strong case and change her mind. Look over at the thread on Patent rights for prescription medicine.

As far as biblical doctrine - who can judge? The Greek originals are translations of Hebrew original speeches, and the English is generally a translation of the Latin translations of the Greek documents.

JD had found a philosophy of belief she wishes to share, presumably for the enlightenment of everyone, and you deny, which is fine. But it won't help your position to post things like the above.

 

[JD_2B]

It is clear that you are intent on being polite in just calling me a fool. You are not paying attention to what I am saying, and you are just proclaiming your beliefs. I

I understand your beliefs, I disagree. I believe the things that I have said.

I understand your beliefs, also.. and I do not believe in them. I believe in what I believe in, and I have reason to believe that what you believe in is a belief caused by false teachings.

Belief. LOL Tongue twisters are fun..

You keep repeating yourself and calling what I believe contrived, false teachings, and the likes.

You never even said what you believe in, until your last post. Again, excuuuuuuse me for believing. HAHA

I believe the Unitatians have it wrong, and I will just leave it there. Just like the JWs, you guys seem to be brainwashed into the way you believe. I do independent study, and don't follow a religion or denomination. I do accept the some of the doctrines of, say, the Baptist church, and even some of the charasmatic doctrines to some degree, however I have learned that my teacher is the Holy Spirit, and I learn from Him.

Actually, I was never taught (the way trinitarians so clearly are taught) that Jesus was God. I was taught to read and study my bible, not just sit there and believe whatever a preacher told me. I was taught HOW to EXERCISE my God given Free Will.

BTW, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

No, but I do believe that without God there would not be a holy spirit. I do not believe that the holy spirit is an entity. I believe it is a frame of mind, the way school spirit is a frame of mind. The holy spirit is not a part of a triune of the three levels of God.. This is considered because you people do not believe the biblical verses in John 14 that have Jesus saying (about God) "I am in him, and he is in me", and that "you are in me and I am in you", even, and so you further would not believe the verses in that same chapter saying that the holy spirit (referred to by the masculine pronoun "he", probably because women may not preach) is in the apostles as well.

10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Is God going to be the Judge, or Jesus?

Both are judges.. God gave Jesus power and authority to judge, but God's judgmental power is that of being the SUPREME GOD- a mighty judge, ABOVE Jesus, by Jesus' own testimony:

John 14 I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Matthew 9:5-7 (New International Version)

5Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 6But so that you may know thatthe Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."

Mark 10:39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."

John 10:31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

John 17:1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


1 Corinthians 15:
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Paul said:
2 Corinthians 10:5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Acts 10:39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

1 Corinthians 5
3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

But Jesus doesn't do all of the Judging:
1Corinthians 5
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

John 5
7Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]?

45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

Will every knee bow and every tongue proclaim that Jesus is Lord?

I don't see anything wrong with bowing to Jesus.. Jesus is Lord. Lord is the word for King, or ruler.. Not God. Please try not to get these confused.

Luke 22:24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

Is Jesus the only way to Salvation?

Yes- Salvation is through Jesus- he is like a gateway to God.

Did Jesus create everything?

No.. God created Jesus.. Jesus probably helped some with the creation of certain things, but I do not believe that Jesus played as big of a role as God did.. however, it is entirely possible that he did help significantly. We know Jesus was at least with God in the beginning.

Is Jesus the Word?

You want to change the "word" into an entity, which it is not, and I refuse to entertain such silliness. The bible does not say that the word is an entity.

Was Jesus there with God in the beginning?

Yes I already answered this.

Is Jesus the eternal King?

No.. Jesus is the king right now, but he gives the kingdom back to God after the second death.

Is Jesus the counselor?

Oh sure.. Moses was too.. So were the apostles, and anyone who spreads the word of God. The counselor, again, is not an entity, so to speak, it is just what it means- a teacher, muse, etc..

Can Jesus forgive sin?

<sigh> Yes he can. I don't know why, but clearly you are patronizing me now.

How can something be "with God," and at the same time "be God?"

Thats what I have been screaming about all this time. Jesus never claims to be God.. only that he is WITH God.

In John 1 there is a lot that I thing the Unitarians have missed because they have a doctrine that disagrees with John 1.

John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Hey, I am an independent thinker- I am agnostic about a lot of doctrines. I just do not wish to refuse the word and testimony of man, when it does not coincide with the testimony coming directly from Scripture.

In John 1:6, applying this theory of the trinity, and basing it on the falsehoods and spin that y'all do- then John must have been a God-man too.. It says he was sent FROM God.. but not BY God. Interesting indeedy..

 

[Terral]

Hi Harry:

most everyone here?.....ok ill bite....who here is not DUPED by ole Satan himself?......and who the hell are you to say who has been and who hasnt?....

Jesus Christ told 'the truth,' just like John the Baptist (John 5:31-33).

"23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just 'a few' who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"(A)Strive to enter through the narrow door; for 'many,' I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and (B)shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, '(C)Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, '(D)I do not know where you are from.' Luke 13:23-25.

Only the 'few' (Matt. 7:13-14) find the path to life and the 'many' are on the wide road to utter destruction! Christ speaks of the 'head of the house' (in the third person) getting up to shut the door 'and' that head of the house is the 'prophet' of Acts 3:22-23 who the 'many' will refuse to 'heed.'

In Christ Jesus right now,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Care4all:

Jesus WAS a man in physical nature with God as His spiritual nature while here on earth, but once He died and was resurrected He was GLORIFIED, and no longer a man with the earthly struggles but God...he came and went as pleases, through walls, through caves, appearing here and there.....

Wrong. The greatest born of woman is Jesus? No. Stop being foolish. The greatest born of woman is "John the Baptist." Matt. 11:11. Jesus Christ is 'no mere man,' but was 'found in appearance AS A MAN.' Phil. 2:8. Many of you falsely believe that Jesus Christ is "God in the flesh" (the Lie), when in reality "The Word was made flesh." John 1:14. John the Baptist is the greatest born of woman, because he is just one more 'skin' (Gen. 3:21 = diagram) for your father Adam the "Man of the Earth" (my Topic). Jesus Christ is the "Man of the Heaven" . . .

Christ was here as a man and walked among us to show us all The Way....

No!! Jesus Christ came to show 'us' NOTHING. Where do you people get this NONSENSE???? God sent His Only Begotten Son to "ONLY" the Lost Sheep Of The House Of ISRAEL!!!!

"24But He answered and said, "I was sent ONLY to (A)the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." Matthew 15:24.

As a man, he had all characteristics of such...he felt sorrow and pain and temptation as all of us....but He was perfect in His ways, through all of this, He was the pure, sacrificial Lamb, who washes away sin as the Lamb that was sacrificed by the Jews on the alter represented.

Lord-Have-Mercy! If John the Baptist is the greatest born of woman, then Jesus Christ IS NO MERE MAN!!! Period! Care is teaching a brand of Roman Catholicism having the 'right pattern,' but the WRONG Principals are plugged into the 'trinity' equation. Denominationalism teaches that:

The Father + Son + Holy Spirit = The Almighty. Wrong!!!

The truth is that:

The Father + Son + Holy Spirit = The Word!

God has His own three witnesses testifying in Revelation 1:8, saying that:

God To Come + God Who Is + God Who Was = The Almighty! When Jesus Christ claims to be the "Son of Man," then He is testifying about "The Word" being sacrificed into the Father + Son + Holy Spirit that Paul knows as the Heavenly "Man" Christ Jesus:

Study this diagram very carefully to realize we are looking at the three witnesses (God, Word, Adam) of Genesis 1:1 'after' each are broken from their Singularity Expression Forum (diagram). God = The Almighty broken down into God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood) and God Who Was (water = diagram) in the same exact way that The Word/Heaven has been broken down into the Father (who is IN HEAVEN = spirit) the Son (blood witness) and the Holy Spirit (water witness 'Helper'). Adam is then broken down into the heavens (spirit), heaven (Gen. 1:8 = blood witness) and the earth (out of water = 2Peter 3:5), according to the same exact 'pattern.' You have a spirit (spirit), soul (blood witness) and body (water witness) in the very same way (diagram) and according to the same "Our Image" (Gen. 1:26-28) pattern.

The Almighty is "God" working in Genesis 1, while The Word/Heaven (F+S+HS) is the "Lord God" working in Genesis 2:4+. The Lord God (Christ) formed Adam to represent this entire universe (Gen. 2:7) with Eve (water witness) and her seed (blood witness) still very much "IN" him. Then, the Lord God (Christ) placed Adam into a deep sleep to take Eve (Adam's 'helper' = Gen. 2:18-22) 'and' her seed from his side in 'water and blood' fashion; exactly like God caused blood and water to come out of Christ's side on the cross (John 19:34). If you look over to the right (diagram above), then you see that

"John The Baptist [Adam] Is The Incarnation Of This Entire Realm ON EARTH."

Then to the left you see,

"Jesus Christ Is The Incarnation Of This Entire Realm [F+S+HS] ON EARTH."

Jesus Christ is the "Son of Man" (smaller version) of the Father + Son + Holy Spirit (Christ Jesus) walking around on the earth. However, John the Baptist (Adam) is the 'son of man' (smaller version) of the Heavens, Heaven and Earth on the earth. THAT is why there is NONE greater than John the Baptist born of woman, because 'he' is your father Adam; exactly like the 'prophet' of Acts 3:22-23, who is 'Elijah' coming to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11) to fulfill the final two verses of the Old Testament (here).

Once He took His last breath....it was DONE, finished....He was Glorified and we had a Way to God...

No!! Most of you have never heard 'the truth' on this matter, so I will just come right out and tell you:

Jesus Christ walked for three years on this planet while retracing the footsteps of His son Adam and his life that lasted 930 years. When Christ said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46), then He was reciting the same exact words that His 'son of God' (Luke 3:38) shouted through the wings of the cherubim back in the Garden on the day he truly died (Gen. 3:24)! Isaiah 53 is written in the 'past tense,' because these words apply to your father Adam 'and' to the Last Adam (Lord God) who came to God's Chosen Race (1Peter 2:9) to make the ultimate sacrifice that His 'son of God' could never make for himself.

Jesus Christ (Lord God) is the "Son of God" and the Lord of "Heaven" (Isa. 66:1), while your father Adam is the "son of God." However, all of that being said, 'your' way to salvation has everything to do with Paul's "Word of the Cross" Gospel message (#2) that was sent into the world by God Himself only 'after' Paul's Conversion in Acts 9.

Obedience to our gospel is the ONLY WAY that you can also be,

IN Christ Jesus,

Terral