Just Go Away Teacher Unions!...

[bodecea]

So true. Here is the Teacher's Unions Main Concerns:
(1) Teacher Pensions - The Highway Robbery Pension plans that the private sector doesn't have. These pension plans suck up so much money that could go directly to the schools. There are some many better ways to spend 40-50% of the education budget then on retired teachers pension plan! Books for one!

(2) Tenure - One of the worst things that ever was advised. If you blow as a teacher, you should be fired. If you cause problems that harms the education of the children then you should be fired. While I think there should be safety nets for whistle blowers. I can't comprehend one benefit of tenure. Tenure, or no fear of losing your job, makes many teachers lazy, they stop trying to learn themselves. The worst Professors I had in college was the tenure ones! This is a communist style measure!

(3) Salary, Promotions and Raises - These are all based on senority, length of services and not on merit. Length in job should be a consideration, but NOT a guiding light! You want a salary increase, then you better merit it! Promotions should be based on merit. Raises should be based on merit!

How do you measure that?

How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

 

[bodecea]

Who knows,this could be a fantastic once and a lifetime opportunity for this Wisconsin Governor to fire these greedy political activists. The Public Schools certainly wouldn't miss them. If they have violated their contract with the Wisconsin Government,they could be subject to dismissal. Might be time for Scott Walker to seize on this opportunity.

Yeah...that's why schools closed down....because they don't miss them.


I would like to see the governor do the very thing you suggest.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

The Democrats are behaving like spoiled brats. This whole thing may end up backfiring on them big time. 2012 could be a great year for Republicans.

 

[Foxfyre]

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

I measure it by whether the students are being educated. I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability. I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community. I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble. I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.

 

[bodecea]

I'm a firm believer that our Public Schools would be much better off without Teacher Unions being involved. The politics & greed would go away over night if they were removed. The Kids would finally get educated again. If this Teacher Union has violated it's contract with the Wisconsin Government,it may be time to terminate the contract and let these Teachers go.

So, show us this being the case in the states without Teachers' Unions.

 

[bodecea]

I swear....some Rightwingers want us to have an education system like Mexico's.

 

[Foxfyre]

I swear....some Rightwingers want us to have an education system like Mexico's.

Really. What rightwingers would that be?

Mexican schools are nationalized with the federal government providing the curriculum, standards, policy, and funding. So how's that working out for them?

What rightwingers can you think of that think such a system is the best way for the USA to go?

How many leftwingers would like to see the schools nationalized?

 

[Annie]

Actually there is a lot to be said for Mexico's school system, like Europe's. Do we want to go there? My preference is not, but I can see the argument for it. Track throughout the grades, that's what they do.

Seriously, I like our presumption that 'all kids can learn', but would certainly like some commonsense brought back into the premise. NCLB with the knocks on giving failing grades to schools, when the kids failing are from non-English speaking homes, poverty, or seriously handicapped.

The first two can be educated, that I believe. I'm also convinced that many special ed kids can thrive academically, but not when we're speaking of genetic or illness that is fatal. Learning differences? Sure. Kids with just a brain stem? No.

Should all secondary schooling be college prep? No, IMO. Some children by inclination or limitations want alternatives, that's where the European models come into play. But I wouldn't go there until at least 8th grade.

 

[GHook93]

How do you measure that?

How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

(1) Student Performance (could be grounds to inflate grades no, but there can always be measures in place, such a general test on the subject)
(2) Principal Observations (How do most employers promote someone, on there own observations)
(3) Teacher Testing (Why should teachers take tests, get certificates etc.)
(4) Length in Service (yep this should be a consideration)

There has to be many ways to do this other than just length in service!

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Most Teachers just want to blame everyone else and never take any responsibility for our failing Public Schools. I have yet to see a Teacher fess up and take some responsibility. They're always blaming the kids & parents. They still refuse to accept any standards testing evaluations for Teacher job performance. Why is that? Why are they so scared of being evaluated? Teachers would actually receive rewards for excelling while also ensuring only the best of the best are teaching our children. The Teacher Unions still refuse to agree to these evaluations. If you want the big bucks,than agree to be evaluated. It really is that simple. Their Blame-Game is just getting to be so tiresome. It's not always the kids & parent's fault. Teachers need to start accepting this.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think back on the story of Jaime Escalante teaching low income, mostly minority barrio kids in West Los Angeles. Because he was a teacher sufficiently gifted to inspire the kids to try, that one school started teaching advanced math that, over a number of consecutive years, qualified more kids for college advanced placement than anybody thought possible.

I read such educators as Thomas Sowell who grew up as a poor black kid under segregation in inner city New York schools but reports getting an education that equipped him to compete with anybody.

I get tired of hearing that poor kids or disadvantaged kids or minority kids cannot be expected to learn and achieve what other kids learn and achieve. And I think until we change our attitudes about that, we are doing those kids a terrible disservice.

 

[jgarden]

The US spends some 3-10X as much as other developed nations on education, yet lags almost all of them in performance of students.

Could it be that the US DOES value education, just that all of that money is flowing into teacher salaries, benefits, unions, etc.? Nah.....

Whatever happened to the "corporate" argument that you have to be willing to provide big salaries and even bigger bonuses to recruit and retain the "brightest and the best?"

Then there's the public school curriculums that have been "politicized" to the bursting point - requiring teachers to accommodate/pacify such a multitude of interest groups that its a wonder they have any time left to teach those topics that actually appear on standardized tests.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

I hate to be this simplistic and callous but...We simply have way too many Dummy Teachers teaching kids to be Dummies. Standards testing evaluations for Teachers would eliminate this terrible problem in our Public Schools. It doesn't look like the Teacher Unions will ever agree to these evaluation tests though. So the kids will just go on suffering. It's very sad.

 

[bodecea]

I hate to be this simplistic and callous but...We simply have way too many Dummy Teachers teaching kids to be Dummies. Standards testing evaluations for Teachers would eliminate this terrible problem in our Public Schools. It doesn't look like the Teacher Unions will ever agree to these evaluation tests though. So the kids will just go on suffering. It's very sad.

So, you think that teachers' evaluations and pay should be based on standardized tests?

Or that teachers should take Standards tests? (They do)

 

[LibocalypseNow]

The only purposes i see Teacher Unions serving these days are greed,getting Democrats elected,protecting awful Teachers,blaming kids & parents for their own failings,playing the victim,and incessant Whining about pretty much everything. They serve no positive purpose in our Public Schools. In fact they're only a huge detriment at this point. Time for them to go.

 

[bodecea]

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

I measure it by whether the students are being educated. I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability. I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community. I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble. I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.

So, you hold teachers responsible if they have special ed students who do not do well...who will want to teach those classes?

So you hold teachers responsible for students ditching school.

So you hold teachers responsible for students getting accepted to colleges of their choice. What about those students who are not college material...who will want to teach them?

So you will hold teachers responsible as to whether kids get in gangs or arrested.


I don't think many will want to be teachers under your regime.

 

[bodecea]

How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

(1) Student Performance (could be grounds to inflate grades no, but there can always be measures in place, such a general test on the subject)
(2) Principal Observations (How do most employers promote someone, on there own observations)
(3) Teacher Testing (Why should teachers take tests, get certificates etc.)
(4) Length in Service (yep this should be a consideration)

There has to be many ways to do this other than just length in service!

2, 3, and 4 are already done.....as for #1....when will you get teachers willing to teach Special ed, the low IQ, the non-college bound, that students not supported at home, the neglected, the low English kids?

 

[Foxfyre]

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.

I measure it by whether the students are being educated. I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability. I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community. I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble. I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.

So, you hold teachers responsible if they have special ed students who do not do well...who will want to teach those classes?

So you hold teachers responsible for students ditching school.

So you hold teachers responsible for students getting accepted to colleges of their choice. What about those students who are not college material...who will want to teach them?

So you will hold teachers responsible as to whether kids get in gangs or arrested.


I don't think many will want to be teachers under your regime.

I had a very few teachers that I dreaded going to their classes. I had teachers that I didn't want to miss their class for ANY reason. Which do you think was the better teacher?

I have six hours of college American History in which I attended the first class just to be sure I was on the roll and I attended the last class to take the final exam. I otherwise worked for pay during that hour as I was financing my college education by myself. The professor never varied from the text, gave half the grade on class participation, and half the grade on the final exam. I aced the finals and needless to say I pulled a C for each three-hour term.

In my opinion that teacher should be fired. But he was a tenured professor so. . . .

And yes. Kids who are engaged in learning, who are given inspiration and hope and goals and belief in themselves and are rewarded for real achievement are far more likely to see value in themselves and are far less likely to get into trouble with the law or cut class or drop out of school. And no, all students are not college material but all students of normal intelligence should be graduating highschool with sufficient education to be employable.

Students who are hindering the advancement of the other students for ANY reason should be removed from the class and educated some other way. And that way should not take away from the main body of students who want an education.

This is the way education mostly worked before education became nationalized and teacher's unions started dictating how schools would operate. And America enjoyed some of the best schools in the world. Now we have some of the worst among industrialized nations.

 

[herceliaL]

Education must be the priority.

 

[Samson]

It is convenient to "blame the teachers."

However, every other "professional" is measured by their accomplishments...why should teachers be any different? They are, after all PUBLIC School teachers. They are supposed to teach the PUBLIC, not just kids that come from perfect households, and who have high values of self motivation.

Because most other professions rely more upon the actions of the professional than upon the actions of others...especially minors to which you have limited access and control. If doctors were not judged by how much they helped patients heal, but how healthy they were. Imagine if we judged doctors as shit because too many of their patients are getting fat and it's making them sick. Or perhaps their patient is smoking and getting cancer. That is what we're doing with teachers. They can't control whether little johnny goes home and studies or whether he simply picks up his xbox and plays all night. They can't control that little suzie is too busy texting her friends all night and her parents can't be bothered to attend a teacher conference. But yet they are judged "poor teachers" when little johnny and suzy fail their tests.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Please keep posting. I mean Annie, Samson and other republicans are like this:


Durr....Unions are problem. Me think Union busting solve all problem. Ugh.

Yet the problem is much more complex and the unions are at best 1% of the educational problems in this country.

You seem to have confused the issue, which I imagine is something of a habit.

Unless you've assumed that holding teachers accountable cannot be done in a union?

Teachers are not judged to be "poor teachers" just because "little johnny and suzy fail their test." The test you are referring is a STANDARDIZED TEST, designed to find out if the AVERAGE student has learned a MINIMUM skill or knowledge.

IMHO the test is poorly administered. It should be given every month rather than once a year, and should be timed at 45 minutes. The status quo tests more the student's ability to take a test and endure a grueling test schedule, and recall in April or May what they were taught in September (probably impossible for 50% USMB members).

The teacher is judged on a wide variety of factors ONE of which is whether or not MOST of their students can pass this test: If a MD's patients were dropping dead then there would be grounds for a Medical Review Board to investigate their license.