Leaving Ultra-Orthodox Judaism

[Penelope]

Leaving Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
May 10, 2013
GETTER: When I left, I moved into my own apartment and I started driving, and as a woman who was driving, my parents disowned me. In our sect, women did not drive. And so, for eight years, they didn’t talk to me.

SEVERSON: In Hebrew, the word Hasidim translates to mean the “pious ones.” They are defined by their devotion to a hereditary leader known as the “Rebbe”, by their distinctive clothing and Yiddish language. Professor Samuel Heilman is a Jewish scholar at Queens College.

PROFESSOR HEILMAN: They don’t believe in birth control. They believe that the commandment of “be fruitful and multiply” is incumbent upon all Jewish people and they practice it. Not only do they have large families but they are the poorest of all Jews because they don’t go to college, so they lack often some of the skills that are necessary for high income. They are all literate in Jewish education, but their secular education is limited. That is not to say there are not some who are successful…in the diamond business, electronics business, in trading on Wall Street.


PROFESSOR HEILMAN: They’ve been told that the world outside their own is demonic, corrosive, dangerous, they wouldn’t want to be part of it, that they live a superior kind of life.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2013/05/10/may-10-2013-leaving-ultra-orthodox-judaism/18423/

They live conspicuously pious lives in a secular world, especially in enclaves and suburbs of New York. Ultra Orthodox Hasidic Jews observe the strict rules of the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, and its 613 commandments.

(what I'm wondering do they still stone people then and we just don't hear about it as they seem to live among themselves? )

 

[GHook93]

They used the blood gentiles for their matzoh also. Yum.

They man of the house had to bed his daughter the night of her wedding to purify her!

You have never met an orthodox Jew. I have known them. Just like all other Jews, the woman rules the roost. It's like Islam, but reverse the sexs!

 

[Penelope]

They used the blood gentiles for their matzoh also. Yum.

They man of the house had to bed his daughter the night of her wedding to purify her!

You have never met an orthodox Jew. I have known them. Just like all other Jews, the woman rules the roost. It's like Islam, but reverse the sexs!

No don't sound like the woman rules the roost. I don't see much differences really.

 

[DriftingSand]

A form of Sharia law? Sounds very similar.

 

[irosie91]

They used the blood gentiles for their matzoh also. Yum.

They man of the house had to bed his daughter the night of her wedding to purify her!

You have never met an orthodox Jew. I have known them. Just like all other Jews, the woman rules the roost. It's like Islam, but reverse the sexs!

No don't sound like the woman rules the roost. I don't see much differences really.

you have never seen. Your comments on the culture of jews is something like
your comment on the Talmud-------YOU NEVER READ THE BOOK---or encountered
the people. Yup---the women rule-----that is THE WIFE. The ultra orthodox men
are very dependent on their wives. -----they tend to be a bit intimidated by their
mothers-in-law. I have worked in health care----when dealing with the ultra orthodox ---asked "where does it hurt"??? the wife answers and the husband does not dare
contradict......of course who am I to complain? -----I rule at home ----but I do leave it
to him to decide where he "hurts" I am liberal minded.

sorry to have observed----amongst some muslim women----a VERY marked
dependence on ----the MAN-----whether father, brother or husband-----
"you need an xray"------"I wiil ask my brother" ----sheeeeesh-- BROTHER??

I will help you to understand----there really is a kind of "philosophy"---associated
with the extreme dependence jewish men have on their wives---women make
the -----unimportant decisions-----like ---what to cook, what to buy, where to live,
when to go, when to come, what to do, what not to do..... MEN MAKE THE
IMPORTANT DECISIONS------like......what he thinks G-d should do next...or not to do---and HE tries to figure out WHY.......HE DID OR DID NOT.....or will he--
its' easy ----in order to understand----read the bible and then read the Koran.

Sarah decided that ISAAC should be the ruler of the community-----Rebecca
decided that JACOB should be the leader------even Bathsheba got to place
Solomon in position------Hannah made Samuel---the man who decided
who would be KING. -------I am not sure I recall any men doing anything
important----------did muhummad ask his wives?------even EVA decided
TIME TO EAT THE APPLE

sorry I forgot ----you never read either book

 

[Penelope]

Your right Sarah got jealous and wanted her son to be ruler and Abraham gave in (Good thing the law of Moses hadn't happened yet hey? ) , Rebecca decided (not God) she decided as she like him better, and so she and Jacob deceived Isaac, very deceptive. So men did nothing imp. in the OT. I think Joseph and King Cyrus did.

Men made the imp. decisions, what a riot. Men no more talked to God than women. Women were treated as second class citizens. There was a Jewish law , if a wife had not given the man a son by 10 years of marriage, he was allowed to marry another and marry Abraham did to Hagar, and then sent her away like a no good tramp with his first born son. Sarah should be so ashamed of herself. Men back then had many women, yes the Jewish men to have kids to work the field and for battle. The Jews were a Hebrew tribe.

 

[irosie91]

Your right Sarah got jealous and wanted her son to be ruler and Abraham gave in (Good thing the law of Moses hadn't happened yet hey? ) , Rebecca decided (not God) she decided as she like him better, and so she and Jacob deceived Isaac, very deceptive. So men did nothing imp. in the OT. I think Joseph and King Cyrus did.

Men make the imp. decisions, what a riot. Men no talked to God than women. Women were treated as second class citizens. There was a Jewish law , if a wife had not given the man a son by 10 years of marriage, he was allowed to marry another and marry Abraham did to Hagar, and then sent her away like a no good tramp with his first born son. Sarah should be so ashamed of herself.

Are you still trying to prove that you are stupid Penelope? ------if you read the bible----
it says "GOD ADVISED ABRAHAM to listen to Sarah -----regarding Ishmael and also advised Abraham that ISAAC was ---the one to inherit----that's what the CATHOLIC BIBLE SAYS------if you ever manage to go to a hotel---you can find the catholic version of the bible in the night table. What does the law of Moses
have to do with it? Rebecca is the mother of both Jacob and Esau-----she knew
their characters -----Joseph had nothing to do with King Cyrus-----you are really really
confused. What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----Sarah was educated in Mesopotamia and followed a Mesopotamian custom of having children----using a
maid as a proxy. I understand that you do not know the details---Sarah
was actually something like a princess from Sumeria and
was doing the Sumerian thing. -----details of the land called
BABYLON and Sumeria are actually known -----remember---the HUMMURABI CODE---
it was discussed in your seventh grade history book . You invented the ten year
no child law------it does not exist however divorce is possible in Jewish law---
not even all that difficult, Polygame is also allowed----until it was kinda outlawed ---
about 2400 years ago

 

[Sunni Man]

What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----

The foundational work of Judaism is the Torah which says:

Genesis 16:3 Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

 

[irosie91]

What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----

The foundational work of Judaism is the Torah which says:

Genesis 16:3 Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

It's a bad translation-----sarah gave the Egyptian to Abraham ----to be a proxy
pregnant lady. It was a custom of sumeria for a woman with a slave if the
woman wanted a child. Hagar did not actually become a wife of Abraham
who was something like the chief of that village------Sarah remained
the "princess" type thing-----not Hagar. Hagar has no actual position----that's
the way things were over there pre Judaism.

 

[Sunni Man]

Wrong irosie.

In the Torah the word in hebrew is wife ......and is correctly translated as wife. .....

 

[irosie91]

Wrong irosie.

In the Torah the word in hebrew is wife ......and is correctly translated as wife. .....

really----what is the Hebrew word for "wife"??? How did people create a
marriage in the time of Abraham?----------bake a wedding cake?-----write a contract?

 

[irosie91]

Wrong irosie.

In the Torah the word in hebrew is wife ......and is correctly translated as wife. .....

you don't know the word in Hebrew for "wife" -----in fact----there is no word---gee
you are dim

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Leaving Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
May 10, 2013
GETTER: When I left, I moved into my own apartment and I started driving, and as a woman who was driving, my parents disowned me. In our sect, women did not drive. And so, for eight years, they didn’t talk to me.

SEVERSON: In Hebrew, the word Hasidim translates to mean the “pious ones.” They are defined by their devotion to a hereditary leader known as the “Rebbe”, by their distinctive clothing and Yiddish language. Professor Samuel Heilman is a Jewish scholar at Queens College.

PROFESSOR HEILMAN: They don’t believe in birth control. They believe that the commandment of “be fruitful and multiply” is incumbent upon all Jewish people and they practice it. Not only do they have large families but they are the poorest of all Jews because they don’t go to college, so they lack often some of the skills that are necessary for high income. They are all literate in Jewish education, but their secular education is limited. That is not to say there are not some who are successful…in the diamond business, electronics business, in trading on Wall Street.


PROFESSOR HEILMAN: They’ve been told that the world outside their own is demonic, corrosive, dangerous, they wouldn’t want to be part of it, that they live a superior kind of life.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2013/05/10/may-10-2013-leaving-ultra-orthodox-judaism/18423/

They live conspicuously pious lives in a secular world, especially in enclaves and suburbs of New York. Ultra Orthodox Hasidic Jews observe the strict rules of the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, and its 613 commandments.

(what I'm wondering do they still stone people then and we just don't hear about it as they seem to live among themselves? )

Can't think of an instance in modern times where tehy have, but they've gotten violent in enforcing religious laws like no working on the Sabbath. Was an item years back in Jerusalem where some UOs assaulted a work crew building a parking lot since it was the Sabbath.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Your right Sarah got jealous and wanted her son to be ruler and Abraham gave in (Good thing the law of Moses hadn't happened yet hey? ) , Rebecca decided (not God) she decided as she like him better, and so she and Jacob deceived Isaac, very deceptive. So men did nothing imp. in the OT. I think Joseph and King Cyrus did.

Men make the imp. decisions, what a riot. Men no talked to God than women. Women were treated as second class citizens. There was a Jewish law , if a wife had not given the man a son by 10 years of marriage, he was allowed to marry another and marry Abraham did to Hagar, and then sent her away like a no good tramp with his first born son. Sarah should be so ashamed of herself.

Are you still trying to prove that you are stupid Penelope? ------if you read the bible----
it says "GOD ADVISED ABRAHAM to listen to Sarah -----regarding Ishmael and also advised Abraham that ISAAC was ---the one to inherit----that's what the CATHOLIC BIBLE SAYS------if you ever manage to go to a hotel---you can find the catholic version of the bible in the night table. What does the law of Moses
have to do with it? Rebecca is the mother of both Jacob and Esau-----she knew
their characters -----Joseph had nothing to do with King Cyrus-----you are really really
confused. What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----Sarah was educated in Mesopotamia and followed a Mesopotamian custom of having children----using a
maid as a proxy. I understand that you do not know the details---Sarah
was actually something like a princess from Sumeria and
was doing the Sumerian thing. -----details of the land called
BABYLON and Sumeria are actually known -----remember---the HUMMURABI CODE---
it was discussed in your seventh grade history book . You invented the ten year
no child law------it does not exist however divorce is possible in Jewish law---
not even all that difficult, Polygame is also allowed----until it was kinda outlawed ---
about 2400 years ago

Polygamy isn't allowed in Judaism. Polygany was but only in the Arabic traditions (Sephardic et al.) Israel will recognize these marriages for new immigrants, but wont permit new ones being performed in Israel.

 

[Penelope]

What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----

The foundational work of Judaism is the Torah which says:

Genesis 16:3 Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

It's a bad translation-----sarah gave the Egyptian to Abraham ----to be a proxy
pregnant lady. It was a custom of sumeria for a woman with a slave if the
woman wanted a child. Hagar did not actually become a wife of Abraham
who was something like the chief of that village------Sarah remained
the "princess" type thing-----not Hagar. Hagar has no actual position----that's
the way things were over there pre Judaism.

Really , well that's what it says in ALL translations. You mean they used surrogates, no kidding, but they also married some and he married Hagar.

 

[irosie91]

What does the Talmud say on the subject-----since you read those books. Abraham did not actually marry Hagar-----

The foundational work of Judaism is the Torah which says:

Genesis 16:3 Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

It's a bad translation-----sarah gave the Egyptian to Abraham ----to be a proxy
pregnant lady. It was a custom of sumeria for a woman with a slave if the
woman wanted a child. Hagar did not actually become a wife of Abraham
who was something like the chief of that village------Sarah remained
the "princess" type thing-----not Hagar. Hagar has no actual position----that's
the way things were over there pre Judaism.

Really , well that's what it says in ALL translations. You mean they used surrogates, no kidding, but they also married some and he married Hagar.

wrong------how do you say "wife" in Hebrew?---------in fact the word 'wife'
in the translations-----is a lot better and more refined than that which would
be a more accurate translation ----but, by not means LITERAL translation----
"sex partner" the actual word used is------"ishto"----"his woman"-------
that she was 'ishto" does not denote an actual "marriage". Marriage in
Judaism is by contract sarah GAVE hagar (the maid she owned) over to
Abraham ----thus allowing him to have sex with HER maid------in fact also as
HIS possession. His possession with which he could have sex in accordance
with the laws of Sumeria. When they "broke up" ---Abraham did not divorce
Hagar-------he just did what ancient jews did when slaves left------gave her some
stuff----not that jewish law yet existed----he kinda did his own version at the time
according to the account in the bible. He gave her stuff and said goodbye.
From the POV of Sarah and Sumerian law----the child Hagar had-------could have been retained by Sarah------however Sarah chose not to keep the child-----
From the POV of jewish law LATER------the whole affair would constitute a
"MARRIAGE"------between Hagar and Abraham and he could not simply
give her a donkey and say "bye bye" see? now you know-----simple minded
as you are

 

[Penelope]

Well at least Hagar wasn't his half sister. Abraham went on to have what 8 children in all? Some say he got back with Hagar. Intermarriage happened forever. The more kids the more to work and fight if needed.

So Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of ten years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, and she gave her to Abram her husband for a wife.	ג. וַתִּקַּח שָׂרַי אֵשֶׁת אַבְרָם אֶת הָגָר הַמִּצְרִית שִׁפְחָתָהּ מִקֵּץ עֶשֶׂר שָׁנִים לְשֶׁבֶת אַבְרָם בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן וַתִּתֵּן אֹתָהּ לְאַבְרָם אִישָׁהּ לוֹ לְאִשָּׁה:
So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took: She took her with words, “You are fortunate that you have merited to cleave to a holy body such as this one.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3]	ותקח שרי: לקחתה בדברים אשריך שזכית לידבק בגוף קדוש כזה:
at the end of ten years: This is the allotted time for a woman who has lived ten years with her husband and has not borne children to him, when he is obligated to marry another. — [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3] See the word obligated? Sari like it or not!	מקץ עשר שנים: מועד הקבוע לאשה ששהתה עשר שנים ולא ילדה לבעלה חייב לישא אחרת:

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Zmrzlina]

The religions of Abraham are truly disgusting and that is the lesson I'm taking away from this thread.

 

[irosie91]

Well at least Hagar wasn't his half sister. Abraham went on to have what 8 children in all? Some say he got back with Hagar. Intermarriage happened forever. The more kids the more to work and fight if needed.

So Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of ten years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, and she gave her to Abram her husband for a wife.	ג. וַתִּקַּח שָׂרַי אֵשֶׁת אַבְרָם אֶת הָגָר הַמִּצְרִית שִׁפְחָתָהּ מִקֵּץ עֶשֶׂר שָׁנִים לְשֶׁבֶת אַבְרָם בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן וַתִּתֵּן אֹתָהּ לְאַבְרָם אִישָׁהּ לוֹ לְאִשָּׁה:
So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took: She took her with words, “You are fortunate that you have merited to cleave to a holy body such as this one.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3]	ותקח שרי: לקחתה בדברים אשריך שזכית לידבק בגוף קדוש כזה:
at the end of ten years: This is the allotted time for a woman who has lived ten years with her husband and has not borne children to him, when he is obligated to marry another. — [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3] See the word obligated? Sari like it or not!	מקץ עשר שנים: מועד הקבוע לאשה ששהתה עשר שנים ולא ילדה לבעלה חייב לישא אחרת:

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

you are very confused AGAIN Penelope----you are quoting----and not very well----some of the EXTENSIVE discourse on Abraham and Sarah and Hagar----which took place a couple of thousand years later and is RECORDED in books like
the Talmud------PS there is no jewish law which REQUIRES a man to
"marry" ------another woman after ten years of childlessness-------
Hagar----most commentaries agree---was Egyptian----but could have
been Sumerian. The only law/custom-----(in fact the law is CITED in the bible in the chapter that deals with Hagar---ie the actual text) is the custom of women
getting a surrogate to get them a kid-------ie a barren woman uses some other
woman and the barren woman gets to call the kid HER OWN-----
SUMERIAN TRADITION-----keep in mind----Sarah---according to the
bible is a Sumerian princess. I do not know what word the talmudists
used to describe the relationship-------but it really does not matter.

That which Abraham DOES----is consistent with the jewish laws that were
codified later-------he had sex with a slave-----so he had to EITHER
MAKE HER A LEGAL WIFE----WITH ALL THE RIGHTS OF LEGAL WIFE
----OR ---give her stuff and say "bye bye"------He chose the
"bye bye" -----which in more modern parlance is----he emancipated and paid
a slave to go away. The story indicates that he did not wish to be married
to her ---considering the times-----he did have the "power" to tell her to go
away and not be married to her------in jewish law he could not SELL HER---
OR KEEP HER as a slave if he wanted her to go away AND DID NOT
WANT TO CONFER UPON HER ALL THE RIGHTS OF A LEGAL
WIFE -----sorry
Penelope----but you really have to know a bit more than your poor
English comprehension to understand what this stuff is all about.

The Talmud and other commentaries are the comments of many
scores of persons----all recorded----not all highly credited----some
are just THERE. Your sense that you can pull a sentence out of
the Talmud and call it a "LAW"----is actually ludicrous---but you
are not really expected to know that. I should add----in jewish law---
if Abraham had actually ----made Hagar his WIFE----he did not
have the option of giving her a donkey and a few dollars and say
"BYE BYE"--------she could refuse.

 

[Penelope]

Well at least Hagar wasn't his half sister. Abraham went on to have what 8 children in all? Some say he got back with Hagar. Intermarriage happened forever. The more kids the more to work and fight if needed.

So Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of ten years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, and she gave her to Abram her husband for a wife.	ג. וַתִּקַּח שָׂרַי אֵשֶׁת אַבְרָם אֶת הָגָר הַמִּצְרִית שִׁפְחָתָהּ מִקֵּץ עֶשֶׂר שָׁנִים לְשֶׁבֶת אַבְרָם בְּאֶרֶץ כְּנָעַן וַתִּתֵּן אֹתָהּ לְאַבְרָם אִישָׁהּ לוֹ לְאִשָּׁה:
So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took: She took her with words, “You are fortunate that you have merited to cleave to a holy body such as this one.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3]	ותקח שרי: לקחתה בדברים אשריך שזכית לידבק בגוף קדוש כזה:
at the end of ten years: This is the allotted time for a woman who has lived ten years with her husband and has not borne children to him, when he is obligated to marry another. — [from Gen. Rabbah 45:3] See the word obligated? Sari like it or not!	מקץ עשר שנים: מועד הקבוע לאשה ששהתה עשר שנים ולא ילדה לבעלה חייב לישא אחרת:

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

you are very confused AGAIN Penelope----you are quoting----and not very well----some of the EXTENSIVE discourse on Abraham and Sarah and Hagar----which took place a couple of thousand years later and is RECORDED in books like
the Talmud------PS there is no jewish law which REQUIRES a man to
"marry" ------another woman after ten years of childlessness-------
Hagar----most commentaries agree---was Egyptian----but could have
been Sumerian. The only law/custom-----(in fact the law is CITED in the bible in the chapter that deals with Hagar---ie the actual text) is the custom of women
getting a surrogate to get them a kid-------ie a barren woman uses some other
woman and the barren woman gets to call the kid HER OWN-----
SUMERIAN TRADITION-----keep in mind----Sarah---according to the
bible is a Sumerian princess. I do not know what word the talmudists
used to describe the relationship-------but it really does not matter.

That which Abraham DOES----is consistent with the jewish laws that were
codified later-------he had sex with a slave-----so he had to EITHER
MAKE HER A LEGAL WIFE----WITH ALL THE RIGHTS OF LEGAL WIFE
----OR ---give her stuff and say "bye bye"------He chose the
"bye bye" -----which in more modern parlance is----he emancipated and paid
a slave to go away. The story indicates that he did not wish to be married
to her ---considering the times-----he did have the "power" to tell her to go
away and not be married to her------in jewish law he could not SELL HER---
OR KEEP HER as a slave if he wanted her to go away AND DID NOT
WANT TO CONFER UPON HER ALL THE RIGHTS OF A LEGAL
WIFE -----sorry
Penelope----but you really have to know a bit more than your poor
English comprehension to understand what this stuff is all about.

The Talmud and other commentaries are the comments of many
scores of persons----all recorded----not all highly credited----some
are just THERE. Your sense that you can pull a sentence out of
the Talmud and call it a "LAW"----is actually ludicrous---but you
are not really expected to know that. I should add----in jewish law---
if Abraham had actually ----made Hagar his WIFE----he did not
have the option of giving her a donkey and a few dollars and say
"BYE BYE"--------she could refuse.

God did not write the Bible so anybody's interpretation is valid. You act like the Bible is in stone, its not, it was wrote by men and that is the way it was
back then.