Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

[sealybobo]

why don't you build a decent car?

I believe that the Big 3's cars have come a long way. Why don't you try buying American next time. Maybe you are wrong. And people like you are killing your country. You are wrong about Honda's and Toyota's being that much better.

And fine. I hope you save $2k and your car lasts 5 more years. You'll need it to drive to your $15hr job.

And, this isn't the union's fault now is it? This is managements fault.

So all these years they've been saying the Big 3's problem is their employees make too much. Now all of the sudden it isn't about that. Although they will use this crisis to lower their wages. That'll trickle down to you eventually Del.

So sometimes I think they are running these companies into the ground on purpose so we can do away with this industry. The Big 3 don't want to manufacture in America. They want to send all the work overseas.

And my brother deals with this shit. He says they are finding out that labor in other countries are not better than American workers. They strike. They want to go on a month vacation in the summer. Do we do that here in America? No we don't.

And the solution must involve tariffing cars that are shipped in from other countries.

Fine if Toyota and Honda want to build cars here. I welcome them. And if the dirty southerners don't mind working for $15 hr, GREAT! But up north people need to pull their heads out of their asses. We make more than the people in the dirty south. If we want to continue this high standard of living, we need to support buying American!!!

 

[Care4all]

at the last corporation that i worked for, bonuses were set up 2 fold, they told you what percentage of your salary was elegible for a bonus...10%, 20%, 30%....100% for top executives.

Then they gave me individually a "financial goal" for my area of responsibility to achieve.... if I met or exceeded my goal, i got half of my bonus....

If the Corp made their overall financial goals, then i got the other half of my bonus paid.

so both me and my area of responsibility and the comapny with their goal, had to be met to receive the full bonus.

Care

 

[CSM]

I believe that the Big 3's cars have come a long way. Why don't you try buying American next time. Maybe you are wrong. And people like you are killing your country. You are wrong about Honda's and Toyota's being that much better.

And fine. I hope you save $2k and your car lasts 5 more years. You'll need it to drive to your $15hr job.

And, this isn't the union's fault now is it? This is managements fault.

So all these years they've been saying the Big 3's problem is their employees make too much. Now all of the sudden it isn't about that. Although they will use this crisis to lower their wages. That'll trickle down to you eventually Del.

So sometimes I think they are running these companies into the ground on purpose so we can do away with this industry. The Big 3 don't want to manufacture in America. They want to send all the work overseas.

And my brother deals with this shit. He says they are finding out that labor in other countries are not better than American workers. They strike. They want to go on a month vacation in the summer. Do we do that here in America? No we don't.

And the solution must involve tariffing cars that are shipped in from other countries.

Fine if Toyota and Honda want to build cars here. I welcome them. And if the dirty southerners don't mind working for $15 hr, GREAT! But up north people need to pull their heads out of their asses. We make more than the people in the dirty south. If we want to continue this high standard of living, we need to support buying American!!!

What do clean southerners make?

 

[del]

I believe that the Big 3's cars have come a long way. Why don't you try buying American next time. Maybe you are wrong. And people like you are killing your country. You are wrong about Honda's and Toyota's being that much better.

And fine. I hope you save $2k and your car lasts 5 more years. You'll need it to drive to your $15hr job.

And, this isn't the union's fault now is it? This is managements fault.

So all these years they've been saying the Big 3's problem is their employees make too much. Now all of the sudden it isn't about that. Although they will use this crisis to lower their wages. That'll trickle down to you eventually Del.

So sometimes I think they are running these companies into the ground on purpose so we can do away with this industry. The Big 3 don't want to manufacture in America. They want to send all the work overseas.

And my brother deals with this shit. He says they are finding out that labor in other countries are not better than American workers. They strike. They want to go on a month vacation in the summer. Do we do that here in America? No we don't.

And the solution must involve tariffing cars that are shipped in from other countries.

Fine if Toyota and Honda want to build cars here. I welcome them. And if the dirty southerners don't mind working for $15 hr, GREAT! But up north people need to pull their heads out of their asses. We make more than the people in the dirty south. If we want to continue this high standard of living, we need to support buying American!!!

i didn't say it was the union's fault now did i? i said build a better car, period.

how do you justify jobs banks, though, if you want me to start up on the union? do you think it's a good way for the big 3 to compete? paying thousands of people NOT to work?

 

[sealybobo]

You can't force us to buy your shitty products,, remember? This is a global market now.. you need to get up to speed.. you know there are Mexican vegetable sitting in the grocery shelves in the central Valley of California? Thanks to Billboard.

Now we are starting to see how Republicans really feel about American workers and American products. I love it!!! No fucking wonder Obama won. I thought the American workers were the fundamentals of our economy and strong? Fucking liars.

Right, this is a global market now. Yes, that's what the GOP told us for 8 years. Absolutely nothing we can do about it, right?

Wait and see. Tariffs are coming back.

You are suggesting we compete with slave labor. You are a house slave. What do you do for a living? No one ever answers that question because you know your job is next.

 

[sealybobo]

i didn't say it was the union's fault now did i? i said build a better car, period.

how do you justify jobs banks, though, if you want me to start up on the union? do you think it's a good way for the big 3 to compete? paying thousands of people NOT to work?

No, I agree you get rid of job banks and the unions need to be reigned in.

And they are being reigned in. New employees start at $15 hr. Thousands of people are being bought out too. The companies are moving in the right direction. A bail out/loan is not a bad idea.

We need the Big 3 to survive.

 

[Care4all]

Yet even Businessweek reports that UAW workers get about $70 an hour in wages and benefits, which is about $25 more per hour than Toyota

it seems they compared the hourly wage only, and did not consider bonuses that toyota actually paid come year end.... perhaps?

And Toyota cut out paid health insurance for family members about 2 years ago, just read an article on that....so the employees at toyota are NOW having to pay the cost of their own families healthcaqre insurance policies....pay for the wife and kid, but their healthcare alone is still covered.

This is probably where some of the savings of toyota empolyees comes from vs the UAW

PLUS NOTE!

toyota execs get paid ONLY 22 times the average toyota worker, but the Big Three executives get paid 450 TIMES the average worker and 1500% MORE than the toyota executive.

 

[del]

Now we are starting to see how Republicans really feel about American workers and American products. I love it!!! No fucking wonder Obama won. I thought the American workers were the fundamentals of our economy and strong? Fucking liars.

Right, this is a global market now. Yes, that's what the GOP told us for 8 years. Absolutely nothing we can do about it, right?

Wait and see. Tariffs are coming back.

You are suggesting we compete with slave labor. You are a house slave. What do you do for a living? No one ever answers that question because you know your job is next.

yeah, that evil republican bill clinton signed off on NAFTA and it's been downhill since.


In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993.
North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[WillowTree]

Now we are starting to see how Republicans really feel about American workers and American products. I love it!!! No fucking wonder Obama won. I thought the American workers were the fundamentals of our economy and strong? Fucking liars.

Right, this is a global market now. Yes, that's what the GOP told us for 8 years. Absolutely nothing we can do about it, right?

Wait and see. Tariffs are coming back.

You are suggesting we compete with slave labor. You are a house slave. What do you do for a living? No one ever answers that question because you know your job is next.

Now you are sounding like you might be coming unglued.. You cannot dispute the fact that Japan builds a better automobile. so you get angry and blame the Republicans.. this is a good tactic yep! a global market and Bill Clinton signed the first treaty allowing American companies to move to Mexico to get cheap labor,, and you blame republicans this is a good tactic then you go all racist on me and call me a house slave,, this is a good tactic,, how many times do I need to tell you I do not work? I don't have a job.. do you hear me now???

 

[del]

No, I agree you get rid of job banks and the unions need to be reigned in.

And they are being reigned in. New employees start at $15 hr. Thousands of people are being bought out too. The companies are moving in the right direction. A bail out/loan is not a bad idea.

We need the Big 3 to survive.

no, the big 3 needs us to survive.
let em go chapter 11 and start over

 

[sealybobo]

What do clean southerners make?

I'm just giving it back. Since we are gay godless liberal yankees, I guess they won't mind the labels we put on them.

 

[DiamondDave]

no, the big 3 needs us to survive.
let em go chapter 11 and start over

Correct

Filing bankruptcy is not inherently going to mean the loss of jobs... stupidly just throwing money at the existing problem, at the taxpayer expense, is not going to help.. and NO, the Fed should not have control over the private business market, including the Big 3

If the big 3 either start looking at chapter 11 or chapter 7, they can start the remodeling of their businesses... hell, if GM and Chrysler think of merging and restructuring, good could come out of this too...

But one BIG mistake held on to by much of the left is the continual propping up of the corrupt unions... the union contracts are one big reason why the big 3 cannot compete (though not the only reason)... do I blame the union for getting everything they could under the existing rules? No... but the game has changed... they either learn to deal with the situation, or realize that they will be a union of unemployed fuckers

Under chapter 11, a judge would have the ability to dissolve the existing union contract structure (a very good thing), so that the company can restructure into a future profit maker... the lower compensation, more in line with Toyota and Honda, can help make the big 3 close the gap in price and features on their cars... increasing tariffs/taxes on foreign vehicles, giving an advantage to the American companies, would also be a good thing... having the big 3 open it's eyes and focus on streamline it's car lines and re-finding their individual niches would also be a good thing...

There is much to be done... but it does not start with the liberal habit of throwing money at the problem and wishing for the problem fairy to fly away

 

[Care4all]

yeah, that evil republican bill clinton signed off on NAFTA and it's been downhill since.


In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993.
North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the DEVIL is in the detail del, read the whole link....

NAFTA was signed by the three heads of countries in 1992, BEFORE bill clinton signed on to NAFTA, and ratified what congress did, thru signing it in to law....

Don't get me wrong, he was for it also, though the MAJORITY of our democratic representatives and senators voted against it and a good deal of Republicans as well, but not as many repubs voting NO as Democratic members....

He passed two different bills to IMPROVE the actual NAFTA agreement BEFORE he sign off on the NAFTA bill....so not to mess with the agreement itself that George h w bush had signed....

But basically, this was not Bill Clinton's "baby", it was George h w bush's "baby" BUT Bill Clinton took over the delivery of the "baby" without much hesitation, other than the two bills he had passed that was SUPPOSE to consider labor, and their cooperation and needs.

Care

 

[del]

the DEVIL is in the detail del, read the whole link....

NAFTA was signed by the three heads of countries in 1992, BEFORE bill clinton signed on to NAFTA, and ratified what congress did, thru signing it in to law....

Don't get me wrong, he was for it also, though the MAJORITY of our democratic representatives and senators voted against it and a good deal of Republicans as well, but not as many repubs voting NO as Democratic members....

He passed two different bills to IMPROVE the actual NAFTA agreement BEFORE he sign off on the NAFTA bill....so not to mess with the agreement itself that George h w bush had signed....

But basically, this was not Bill Clinton's "baby", it was George h w bush's "baby" BUT Bill Clinton took over the delivery of the "baby" without much hesitation, other than the two bills he had passed that was SUPPOSE to consider labor, and their cooperation and needs.

Care

with respect, i read the whole link and i also distinctly remember clinton supporting when he ran in 1992. unfortunately, the law of unintended consequences is fully bipartisan.

 

[CSM]

I'm just giving it back. Since we are gay godless liberal yankees, I guess they won't mind the labels we put on them.

Okie doke but just for the record, I am neither gay nor liberal. I was born and raised (and continue to be) yankee. Still trying to decide whether I am godless or not.

 

[del]

Okie doke but just for the record, I am neither gay nor liberal. I was born and raised (and continue to be) yankee. Still trying to decide whether I am godless or not.

me too. we call ourselves unitarians.

 

[sealybobo]

no, the big 3 needs us to survive.
let em go chapter 11 and start over

No. Let the banks go chapter 11 and start over.

When I choose between a company that makes something and employs a lot of people vs. a bank that doesn't even make a product, I choose saving the company that actually makes something.

And besides Del, you had 6 solid years where we tried it your way. This is your mess. Now sit there and watch as we fix the mess your kind created.

No more sending jobs overseas and giving tax breaks to the companies that go.

No more pitting American workers against slave labor so you can save a buck.

We worry that China is going to become the next superpower yet here we are financing it.

It's too much to fathom. My head is going to explode. You guys are a bunch of sellouts and it makes me sick.

It doesn't have to be this way. If the economy were good and if you made a decent wage, you could afford a couple grand more for a car.

Would it really break you if the dollar stores turned into $2 stores and they sold all American products? I'd gladly shop at the $2 store.

Cheap asses.

 

[Care4all]

with respect, i read the whole link and i also distinctly remember clinton supporting when he ran in 1992. unfortunately, the law of unintended consequences is fully bipartisan.

OH NO DOUBT that NAFTA was a bipartisan effort, though MORE republicans voted for it than Democrats voting for it...enough Democrats supported it to call it a BIPARTISAN EFFORT....(they BOTH screwed us)

And with even more respect back at ya.... Clinton DID say he would sign the NAFTA bill IF it was PASSED by congress during his campaign, but by no means was it part of his presidential run or focus of his presidential run or a platform for his presidential run.....

The agreement goes back to the 1992 presidential campaign when Bill Clinton ran against incumbent President George H.W. Bush. On Aug. 12 of that year, Bush finished negotiating NAFTA with Mexico and Canada. During the campaign, Bill Clinton said he would support NAFTA if elected, but would demand supplemental agreements to protect worker rights, the environment and sudden import surges.

 

[Andrew2382]

Why do people think Bankruptcy is a bad thing?'

It's not, it's healthy for companies in their state. Let them declare chapter 11...negotiate the contracts they have and rebuild.
Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.
Enough with these fucking bailouts.

They pay 73 dollars a fucking hour for the average employee. Competitors are paying 43 dollars an hour.

The average American worker hourly wage is like 25 bucks an hour.

Fuck these unions, they think there is an endless supply of money on the other side and just take and take and take.

 

[del]

And besides Del, you had 6 solid years where we tried it your way. This is your mess. Now sit there and watch as we fix the mess

i had no idea paul simon was writing about me

And if I was president (was the president)
The minute congress call my name (was the president)
I'd say;who do,
Who do you think you're fooling? (who do you think you're fooling)

I've got the presidential seal (was the president)
I'm up on the presidential podium
My mama loves me
She loves me
She get down on her knees and hug me
Like she loves me like a rock
She rocks me like the rock of ages
And loves me

Fade out:
She love me, love me, love me, love me
(loves me like a rock)​

cool, where's my helicopter?