Let us discuss this openly... What exactly IS the "two states solution"?

[Sixties Fan]

This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.

Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.

Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.

Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.

Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.

Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.

Egypt and Jordan did it.

Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.

The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned

The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

This Was the Neanderthal-Like Species the Great Wall of China Was Built Against

They were never nations; they were tribal gangs continually engaging in genocide of any other tribe that got in their way. You can't call some diverse horde a nation if all those in the nation only identify with a tiny part of that pseudo-nation.

Prehistorically, the Indians came across from Siberia as criminal fugitives. That's why these Mongoloids were driven into Siberia in the first place. It may make you feel morally superior to adopt the glittery decadent richkids' Whiteys Hating Whitey attitude, but they also hate you.

Delegitimizing the First Nations of America, now?
And the ones from Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand, and other Americas as well????

Just let any one of them hear you say that . Or that all First Nations would agree that they hate Jews, too.

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk

Discredit one, discredit all.

Wholesale discrediting

 

[Coyote]

...

I can find no evidence that Israel has ever legally acquired any land.

Just a lot of smoke and say so.

Demonstrably untrue, but that was not the question Coyote was really asking you. The question is whether or not you can support a two state solution -- a dividing of the territory NOW, legally, by treaty. Yes or no?

The proof will be in Ottoman and British records.

Tel-Aviv was bought on land Jews purchased. A swamp not wanted by anyone else.
They bought land, Arabs bought land.
Jews bought land where the absentee owners wanted to sell the land.

Think-Israel

It is without doubt that the Jews, in their quest to purchase and acquire more land, did not take any land from Arabs unlawfully. Furthermore, Arab absentee landlords living elsewhere and real estate brokers sold their land to Jews at an inflated cost.

As of today, not a single person representing the pro-Palestinian view has been able to contradict this reality using any official documentation, land data or historical records.
---------------------

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
http://www.catholicregister.org/hom...-west-bank-landowners-cant-get-to-their-land=
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

 

[Coyote]

...

I can find no evidence that Israel has ever legally acquired any land.

Just a lot of smoke and say so.

Demonstrably untrue, but that was not the question Coyote was really asking you. The question is whether or not you can support a two state solution -- a dividing of the territory NOW, legally, by treaty. Yes or no?

The proof will be in Ottoman and British records.

Tel-Aviv was bought on land Jews purchased. A swamp not wanted by anyone else.
They bought land, Arabs bought land.
Jews bought land where the absentee owners wanted to sell the land.

Think-Israel

It is without doubt that the Jews, in their quest to purchase and acquire more land, did not take any land from Arabs unlawfully. Furthermore, Arab absentee landlords living elsewhere and real estate brokers sold their land to Jews at an inflated cost.

As of today, not a single person representing the pro-Palestinian view has been able to contradict this reality using any official documentation, land data or historical records.
---------------------

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
Absentee landowners? West Bank landowners can't get to their land
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

 

[Sixties Fan]

...

I can find no evidence that Israel has ever legally acquired any land.

Just a lot of smoke and say so.

Demonstrably untrue, but that was not the question Coyote was really asking you. The question is whether or not you can support a two state solution -- a dividing of the territory NOW, legally, by treaty. Yes or no?

The proof will be in Ottoman and British records.

Tel-Aviv was bought on land Jews purchased. A swamp not wanted by anyone else.
They bought land, Arabs bought land.
Jews bought land where the absentee owners wanted to sell the land.

Think-Israel

It is without doubt that the Jews, in their quest to purchase and acquire more land, did not take any land from Arabs unlawfully. Furthermore, Arab absentee landlords living elsewhere and real estate brokers sold their land to Jews at an inflated cost.

As of today, not a single person representing the pro-Palestinian view has been able to contradict this reality using any official documentation, land data or historical records.
---------------------

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
Absentee landowners? West Bank landowners can't get to their land
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

Are you at all aware that Jewish property has been seized by Arabs from 1920 to 1948, in Gaza, Hebron, Sfad, TransJordan, and later in all the Arab countries where they were expelled?

They "legally" seized all of those properties by law, by stripping all Jews of their citizenship in those Arab and European countries as well.

If the Landowner is absentee, and cannot be found, in the case of any property in Israel, the State does have the right after many years of trying to have the owners come forward, to take over said property.

It would be the same in any country.

Israel is not lawless. The courts usually favor the Arabs in their claims for property, even if they do not show any proof of it.

Anywhere in the world, if one cannot show proof of ownership of land, the land reverts back to the State.

 

[Coyote]

The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.

There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?

I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.

Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.

Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.

Egypt and Jordan did it.

Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.

The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned

The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

 

[Sixties Fan]

<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>

You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.

All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.

The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.

They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc

Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.

There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.

A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.

All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.

The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.

Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.

Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.

Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.

Egypt and Jordan did it.

Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.

The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned

The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

 

[Coyote]

...

Demonstrably untrue, but that was not the question Coyote was really asking you. The question is whether or not you can support a two state solution -- a dividing of the territory NOW, legally, by treaty. Yes or no?

The proof will be in Ottoman and British records.

Tel-Aviv was bought on land Jews purchased. A swamp not wanted by anyone else.
They bought land, Arabs bought land.
Jews bought land where the absentee owners wanted to sell the land.

Think-Israel

It is without doubt that the Jews, in their quest to purchase and acquire more land, did not take any land from Arabs unlawfully. Furthermore, Arab absentee landlords living elsewhere and real estate brokers sold their land to Jews at an inflated cost.

As of today, not a single person representing the pro-Palestinian view has been able to contradict this reality using any official documentation, land data or historical records.
---------------------

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
Absentee landowners? West Bank landowners can't get to their land
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

Are you at all aware that Jewish property has been seized by Arabs from 1920 to 1948, in Gaza, Hebron, Sfad, TransJordan, and later in all the Arab countries where they were expelled?

They "legally" seized all of those properties by law, by stripping all Jews of their citizenship in those Arab and European countries as well.

Yes, I was "at all aware" of that, as well as the explusion of Jews from Arab countries and the treatment of Jews in Europe. I'm not sure how that is any sort of justification for continuing the practice of seizures and confiscations.

Those who's lands were confiscated during the expulsions should get compensation.

If the Landowner is absentee, and cannot be found, in the case of any property in Israel, the State does have the right after many years of trying to have the owners come forward, to take over said property.

It would be the same in any country.

Israel is not lawless. The courts usually favor the Arabs in their claims for property, even if they do not show any proof of it.

Anywhere in the world, if one cannot show proof of ownership of land, the land reverts back to the State.

I would be the first to agree that land law and land rights in that part of the world are extremely complicated compared to say the US or Europe. But in my view there is little question that the absentee land owners law, and associated later laws were put in place primarily to allow for easy confiscation of property.

Of course Israel is not a lawless state, but that doesn't mean it's laws are always just.

In the case of "absentee land owner laws" - I disagree with you. Quite often the owner CAN be found, but is unable to enter the country. These laws are also frequently used to confiscate property, and in fact that was a large reason they were created in the first place. Jews have a lower burden of proof in order to reclaim property than Palestinians.

Arabs, Jews don't have equal rights to recover property

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property.

The law appointed a Custodianship Council for Absentees' Property, whose president was to be known as the custodian of absentees' property. It then declared that "every right an absentee had in any property shall pass automatically to the custodian at the time of the vesting of the property; and the status of the custodian shall be the same as was that of the owner of the property."

In other words, the law stated that all property belonging to "absentee" owners was irretrievably lost to them...

...Ironically, the Palestinians who are being evicted from Sheikh Jarrah were in exactly the same positions as the Jewish owners of the land they have lived on since 1956. They owned property in west Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence, while the Sephardic Community and Knesset Israel committees owned land in east Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence.

The difference is, however, that because of Israeli legislation, the Jewish landowners could recover their land once the city was united, but the Palestinian landowners could not.​

 

[Coyote]

The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned

The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

 

[Sixties Fan]

...

The proof will be in Ottoman and British records.

Tel-Aviv was bought on land Jews purchased. A swamp not wanted by anyone else.
They bought land, Arabs bought land.
Jews bought land where the absentee owners wanted to sell the land.

Think-Israel

It is without doubt that the Jews, in their quest to purchase and acquire more land, did not take any land from Arabs unlawfully. Furthermore, Arab absentee landlords living elsewhere and real estate brokers sold their land to Jews at an inflated cost.

As of today, not a single person representing the pro-Palestinian view has been able to contradict this reality using any official documentation, land data or historical records.
---------------------

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
Absentee landowners? West Bank landowners can't get to their land
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

Are you at all aware that Jewish property has been seized by Arabs from 1920 to 1948, in Gaza, Hebron, Sfad, TransJordan, and later in all the Arab countries where they were expelled?

They "legally" seized all of those properties by law, by stripping all Jews of their citizenship in those Arab and European countries as well.

Yes, I was "at all aware" of that, as well as the explusion of Jews from Arab countries and the treatment of Jews in Europe. I'm not sure how that is any sort of justification for continuing the practice of seizures and confiscations.

Those who's lands were confiscated during the expulsions should get compensation.

If the Landowner is absentee, and cannot be found, in the case of any property in Israel, the State does have the right after many years of trying to have the owners come forward, to take over said property.

It would be the same in any country.

Israel is not lawless. The courts usually favor the Arabs in their claims for property, even if they do not show any proof of it.

Anywhere in the world, if one cannot show proof of ownership of land, the land reverts back to the State.

I would be the first to agree that land law and land rights in that part of the world are extremely complicated compared to say the US or Europe. But in my view there is little question that the absentee land owners law, and associated later laws were put in place primarily to allow for easy confiscation of property.

Of course Israel is not a lawless state, but that doesn't mean it's laws are always just.

In the case of "absentee land owner laws" - I disagree with you. Quite often the owner CAN be found, but is unable to enter the country. These laws are also frequently used to confiscate property, and in fact that was a large reason they were created in the first place. Jews have a lower burden of proof in order to reclaim property than Palestinians.

Arabs, Jews don't have equal rights to recover property

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property.

The law appointed a Custodianship Council for Absentees' Property, whose president was to be known as the custodian of absentees' property. It then declared that "every right an absentee had in any property shall pass automatically to the custodian at the time of the vesting of the property; and the status of the custodian shall be the same as was that of the owner of the property."

In other words, the law stated that all property belonging to "absentee" owners was irretrievably lost to them...

...Ironically, the Palestinians who are being evicted from Sheikh Jarrah were in exactly the same positions as the Jewish owners of the land they have lived on since 1956. They owned property in west Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence, while the Sephardic Community and Knesset Israel committees owned land in east Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence.

The difference is, however, that because of Israeli legislation, the Jewish landowners could recover their land once the city was united, but the Palestinian landowners could not.​

1) Jews did not start the riots or wars from 1920 on.

2) The Jews did not start the wars of 1948, and 1967
Israel won all of those wars.

The losers of wars do not get to make demands.

Israel has done more to allowing Arabs back into Israel because of family reunification (when they could have had the families in Israel simply leave) than either Egypt, Jordan, the PLO or any other Arab organization.

Just as the Jordanians and Egyptians refused to allow Jews to buy, reside or recover any property between 1920 and 1967, Israel has no obligation to give "back" any Arab land.

Although it does all the time, as I said.

Jews are being evicted from Amona, exactly because an Arab claimed part of the land, or all of it, and the court agreed with them.
So the Jews are being evicted.

Israeli police begin forced removal of Amona settlers in the West Bank

3) The Jews, once Jerusalem was unified, did not get to just go to their homes and reclaim them. It was the Jewish Quarter in 1948, when it was taken over by Jordan.
It became the Arab Quarter, and it is still known as that as most who still live there, in houses previously owned by Jews, are Arabs who moved into that Quarter after 1948.

Very few Jews have, through the courts and decades of fighting it, been given back the keys to their homes in East Jerusalem after 1948. Or anywhere else in Judea and Samaria.

Instead they have built villages near the cities they were made to leave.

No Arabs have been made to leave Hebron ( or any other previously Jewish city like Jericho, Shilo, etc) which was a majority Jewish city in 1948, and is now a small minority since 1967.

All of those cities, all of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarters were completely cleansed of all Jews.

Where has Israel done the same thing since 1948, in all the wars, as it regained Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter back?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Please, do not offend the First Nations. They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.

Arabs are from Arabia

Jews are from Judea

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

Please, spare me the "Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots"
nonsense.

They never said that BEFORE they were to lose the land of Israel to the Jews. And right now, it is only 20% of the Jewish Homeland.
Which they want very badly, and with no Jews around, or very few.
Vide Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen.

That is total nonsense and all it takes is for the Arabs to take a DNA test to prove if they came from the region of Ancient Canaan, or from the region of Arabia.

Some Jews being forced into Islam and or intermarrying with Arabs for the past 100 years, does not make Jews and Arabs of the same genetic root.

 

[Coyote]

That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

Please, spare me the "Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots"
nonsense.

Fine. Ignore the science if you want to.

It really shouldn't suprise you given the movements and migrations of people in that area throughout a long period of history.

They never said that BEFORE they were to lose the land of Israel to the Jews. And right now, it is only 20% of the Jewish Homeland.
Which they want very badly, and with no Jews around, or very few.
Vide Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen.

None of which has any bearing on the science of it.

Why does the fact that they are closely related upset you so much?

That is total nonsense and all it takes is for the Arabs to take a DNA test to prove if they came from the region of Ancient Canaan, or from the region of Arabia.

Some Jews being forced into Islam and or intermarrying with Arabs for the past 100 years, does not make Jews and Arabs of the same genetic root.

It does if you accept the fact that "arab" applies to a wide group of people. If anything it's fascinating as it gives an insight into the interrelatedness and movements of different ancient people.

It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers".

And the only purpose of perpetrating those memes is to delegitimize one or the other and that leads to no solutions. That's also why "indiginous" is meaningless in resolving this conflict.

 

[Coyote]

...

Private ownership of land does not remove that land from the country.

There was hardly any private ownership by the poor Arabs who were toiling the land.

You insist in forgetting that none of the Arabs in the North of Israel left the land, which had become Israel.
They were not foolish enough to believe the Arab leaders who told the ones in the south to leave and for those who could, fight and kill the Jews.

The Arabs lost the war. They do not get a do over, as they tried again and again in 1957, 1967 and 1973 and lost all the other three times as well.

By all means, choose to forget that Israel did not expel all the Muslims from the North of Israel, or anywhere else in what became Israel in 1948.

Nor did they expel any Muslims in 1957, or 1967 when Israel got the areas of Judea and Samaria. No Muslims were expelled from "East Jerusalem", which had been populated by Jews until 1948. It was known as the Jewish Quarter of the city of Jerusalem until 1948.
Now it is mostly populated by Arabs who will not give back homes belonging to Jews, as you seem to be demanding that Jews return lands, and homes never really owned by Arabs.

The Arabs with proof that the property was theirs are allowed to reclaim their property under Israeli law.

There is no such law under the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or Hamas to return Jewish properties.

Not necessarily.

Israel can now legally seize Palestinians' homes in Jerusalem
Absentee landowners? West Bank landowners can't get to their land
Israeli Aide Bars Policy of Seizing Arab Land

Are you at all aware that Jewish property has been seized by Arabs from 1920 to 1948, in Gaza, Hebron, Sfad, TransJordan, and later in all the Arab countries where they were expelled?

They "legally" seized all of those properties by law, by stripping all Jews of their citizenship in those Arab and European countries as well.

Yes, I was "at all aware" of that, as well as the explusion of Jews from Arab countries and the treatment of Jews in Europe. I'm not sure how that is any sort of justification for continuing the practice of seizures and confiscations.

Those who's lands were confiscated during the expulsions should get compensation.

If the Landowner is absentee, and cannot be found, in the case of any property in Israel, the State does have the right after many years of trying to have the owners come forward, to take over said property.

It would be the same in any country.

Israel is not lawless. The courts usually favor the Arabs in their claims for property, even if they do not show any proof of it.

Anywhere in the world, if one cannot show proof of ownership of land, the land reverts back to the State.

I would be the first to agree that land law and land rights in that part of the world are extremely complicated compared to say the US or Europe. But in my view there is little question that the absentee land owners law, and associated later laws were put in place primarily to allow for easy confiscation of property.

Of course Israel is not a lawless state, but that doesn't mean it's laws are always just.

In the case of "absentee land owner laws" - I disagree with you. Quite often the owner CAN be found, but is unable to enter the country. These laws are also frequently used to confiscate property, and in fact that was a large reason they were created in the first place. Jews have a lower burden of proof in order to reclaim property than Palestinians.

Arabs, Jews don't have equal rights to recover property

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property.

The law appointed a Custodianship Council for Absentees' Property, whose president was to be known as the custodian of absentees' property. It then declared that "every right an absentee had in any property shall pass automatically to the custodian at the time of the vesting of the property; and the status of the custodian shall be the same as was that of the owner of the property."

In other words, the law stated that all property belonging to "absentee" owners was irretrievably lost to them...

...Ironically, the Palestinians who are being evicted from Sheikh Jarrah were in exactly the same positions as the Jewish owners of the land they have lived on since 1956. They owned property in west Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence, while the Sephardic Community and Knesset Israel committees owned land in east Jerusalem and lost it as a result of the War of Independence.

The difference is, however, that because of Israeli legislation, the Jewish landowners could recover their land once the city was united, but the Palestinian landowners could not.​

1) Jews did not start the riots or wars from 1920 on.

2) The Jews did not start the wars of 1948, and 1967
Israel won all of those wars.

The losers of wars do not get to make demands.

Israel has done more to allowing Arabs back into Israel because of family reunification (when they could have had the families in Israel simply leave) than either Egypt, Jordan, the PLO or any other Arab organization.

Just as the Jordanians and Egyptians refused to allow Jews to buy, reside or recover any property between 1920 and 1967, Israel has no obligation to give "back" any Arab land.

Although it does all the time, as I said.

Jews are being evicted from Amona, exactly because an Arab claimed part of the land, or all of it, and the court agreed with them.
So the Jews are being evicted.

Israeli police begin forced removal of Amona settlers in the West Bank

3) The Jews, once Jerusalem was unified, did not get to just go to their homes and reclaim them. It was the Jewish Quarter in 1948, when it was taken over by Jordan.
It became the Arab Quarter, and it is still known as that as most who still live there, in houses previously owned by Jews, are Arabs who moved into that Quarter after 1948.

Very few Jews have, through the courts and decades of fighting it, been given back the keys to their homes in East Jerusalem after 1948. Or anywhere else in Judea and Samaria.

Instead they have built villages near the cities they were made to leave.

No Arabs have been made to leave Hebron ( or any other previously Jewish city like Jericho, Shilo, etc) which was a majority Jewish city in 1948, and is now a small minority since 1967.

All of those cities, all of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarters were completely cleansed of all Jews.

Where has Israel done the same thing since 1948, in all the wars, as it regained Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter back?

So what is your solution to the current situation? One state? Two states? Under what conditions? Because it sounds like you don't grant any legitimacy to the Palestinians.

 

[louie888]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

 

[Coyote]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The term Arab means all who identify as such having come from the Arabian Peninsula. The Saudi, the Hashemites, the Husseini, the Yemenites, the UAE, Qatar, are all Arab, in language, culture, etc because they developed that history more then 2000 years ago.
It is melting pot, an ethnicity, not a race.

The same goes for the Jews. Most Jews are from the area of Ancient Canaan. A melting pot of all the Canaanite tribes which formed the Nation of Israel, and eventually the people came to be known as Jews, from the area of Judea (Judah, one of the twelve tribes).

Arabs, with all who eventually moved to Arabia and were born there ages ago, are known as Arabs.

Berbers and any other ethnicity, like the Kurds, Copts, Yazidis, Assyrians, etc are not Arabs.
They call themselves Berbers, and not Arabs. I have met one.
He spoke Arabic, but did not call himself an Arab, because he was a Berber, which is a distinct group from the Arabs.


Being "Arabized" is not the same thing as being an Arab.
Speaking Arabic, as many Jews did in Arab countries, does not make anyone an Arab. Copts in Egypt speak Arabic, and they are not Arabs.

Arabs now live all over the world. It does not mean that they did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. If not, they would not call themselves Arabs, as the Husseini and their descendants, who came from Arabia into Jerusalem in the 11th century , did.

Jews are not Jews?

Arabs are not Arabs?

Seriously????

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

Please, spare me the "Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots"
nonsense.

Fine. Ignore the science if you want to.

It really shouldn't suprise you given the movements and migrations of people in that area throughout a long period of history.

They never said that BEFORE they were to lose the land of Israel to the Jews. And right now, it is only 20% of the Jewish Homeland.
Which they want very badly, and with no Jews around, or very few.
Vide Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen.

None of which has any bearing on the science of it.

Why does the fact that they are closely related upset you so much?

That is total nonsense and all it takes is for the Arabs to take a DNA test to prove if they came from the region of Ancient Canaan, or from the region of Arabia.

Some Jews being forced into Islam and or intermarrying with Arabs for the past 100 years, does not make Jews and Arabs of the same genetic root.

It does if you accept the fact that "arab" applies to a wide group of people. If anything it's fascinating as it gives an insight into the interrelatedness and movements of different ancient people.

It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers".

And the only purpose of perpetrating those memes is to delegitimize one or the other and that leads to no solutions. That's also why "indiginous" is meaningless in resolving this conflict.

You are ignoring the Jewish DNA and the studies about it.

How many of those who got tested by the results you are providing have gone to Jewish labs and taken a DNA test to prove that they have any Jewish DNA in them?

I can tell you. Zero.

Why? Because those who have made the tests you are providing, would never provide the same people they tested to prove via a Jewish DNA test, that they actually have any Jewish DNA in them.

Which does not mean that those Arabs who have any Jewish DNA in them are Jewish, all it means it that at some point in the past 1700 years, their ancestors had relations with those from the one Jewish Tribe from Arabia, whose females and children were sold into slavery in the 7th Century, or any other Jews who were forced to convert to Islam in any part of Islam conquered land, or somewho have intermarried with Arabs, since the last century, including in Israel.


Same genetic root does not mean what you seem to think it does.

Semitic is a group of languages. The languages are similar, but not the same.

If it was a matter of being "Semitic" then all Arameic, Samaritians, etc would be also of the same genetic root as the Arabs.
So would the Copts, the Syrians, the Kurds.
All must have had intermarriages with the Arabs at some point, no matter what the number is.

DNA, the genetic roots, is about where the people come from, that is what a DNA test proves.

Can any Arab take the test and prove that they have Jewish DNA, aka, some ancestor came from the ancient land of Canaan/Israel?

That is what many are proving, from China, India, Ethiopia, etc.

When are the Arabs going to do allow Israel to conduct DNA tests on those who claim to have Jewish Ancestry?

Still, it does not mean that ALL Arabs, as they come from Arabia, have Jewish ancestry, common genetic roots, in them.

As you can tell, it is not that Arabs ARE genetically connected to Jews, is that they have been lying for the past 50 years that they have any ancestral connection at all.

Root means, Jews and Arabs come from the same place.

They do not, and Arabs know that.

Another attempt to displace the Jews from their ancient Land and turning Ancient Israel into a majority, or only, Arab population with an unproven test is nothing to get upset about.


The Jews have the part of Israel they have and they are keeping it, and keeping the country and the population safe, despite all the attempts to the contrary.

No different than it was during Greek or Roman control of their land.

No Arabs in sight.

 

[louie888]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

verb (used with object), colonized, colonizing.

1.
to establish a colony in; settle:
England colonized Australia.

2.
to form a colony of:
to colonize laborers in a mining region.



verb (used without object), colonized, colonizing.

3.
to form a colony:
They went out to Australia to colonize.

4.
to settle in a colony.

the definition of colonizer

Care to try again?

 

[Sixties Fan]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

Arabs returning to Arabia are "immigrants" ?

Irish returning to Ireland are immigrants ?

Germans returning to Germany are immigrants?


Thousands of Arabs "immigrated" to the Ottoman Empire and later Mandate for Palestine. They were not covered by a dome which allowed those Arabs living there to only "multiply naturally".


80 % of the Mandate for Palestine, the Land of Israel, is officially in the hands of Arabs.

Could Abbas, please, change the map he has of "Palestine" to not include all of Israel?

 

[Coyote]

Let me ask you before I go further: are you arguing that all the "Arab" people in what is now referred to as Palestine/Israel came from elsewhere?

That is the meaning of the word Arab. Those who come from Arabia.
Like anyone else, they have moved outside Arabia, especially after the 7th century CE.

They went to other parts of Asia, Europe, Americas, Australia.
They are still, and will continue to be, indigenous of the Arabian Peninsula where they originated.

The Jews just did the same thing, even before the Greek and Roman invasions. Going to Europe with Caesar or during the 70 CE revolt. They are still indigenous from the ancient Land of Canaan, the Land of Israel.

Palestine is a Region.
There was never a Palestinian People on that land, be it the Jews, or anyone else.

A Palestinian People arose from the Arab leaders in the area needing to keep the Jews from recreating their National Homeland.

Yes, there were Arabs on the land since the 7th Century invasion.
They never called themselves Palestinians or anything else but Arabs and Muslims until 1964.
If the Mandate for Palestine had been called the Mandate for Israel, they would be calling themselves the real Israelites, now.
If it had been called the Mandate for Canaan, they would be calling themselves Canaanites, now.

But in reality, Arabs are Arabs, and they are indigenous of Arabia.

Palestinian Authority Head Admits "Palestinian People" Don't Exist

Do Berbers call themselves Arabs? No
Do the Copts? No.
Do any other indigenous people in the Middle East call themselves Arabs, besides the Arabs? No

Not the Kurds. And they are in Mesopotamia, Iraq.
Not the Assyrians, who are in Syria.


Who are the Palestinian Arabs?
Where did all their ancestors come from?

Who are the Palestinian Arabs?

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
Blood brothers with Jews and Druze.


What is the Arab history in Palestine?
Arabs are not a singular people. Origins are complex and intermingled with many peoples and lines. According to tradition, true Arabs are descendants of Abraham and his son Ishmael and prior to the 20th century, “Arab” designated the Bedouin, tribal-based society of the Arabian desert, which is the birthplace of Arabic. Other Arabs are ethnic groups that have been extant in their lands of origin for millennia. Modern Arab nationalism is a product of 19th- and 20th-century developments and has no prior historical basis. Before the rise of nationalism, most Arabic-speakers identified themselves as members of a particular family or tribe; as residents of a village, town, or region; as Muslims, Christians, or Jews; or as subjects of large political entities such as the Ottoman empire.

Please, spare me the "Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots"
nonsense.

Fine. Ignore the science if you want to.

It really shouldn't suprise you given the movements and migrations of people in that area throughout a long period of history.

They never said that BEFORE they were to lose the land of Israel to the Jews. And right now, it is only 20% of the Jewish Homeland.
Which they want very badly, and with no Jews around, or very few.
Vide Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen.

None of which has any bearing on the science of it.

Why does the fact that they are closely related upset you so much?

That is total nonsense and all it takes is for the Arabs to take a DNA test to prove if they came from the region of Ancient Canaan, or from the region of Arabia.

Some Jews being forced into Islam and or intermarrying with Arabs for the past 100 years, does not make Jews and Arabs of the same genetic root.

It does if you accept the fact that "arab" applies to a wide group of people. If anything it's fascinating as it gives an insight into the interrelatedness and movements of different ancient people.

It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers".

And the only purpose of perpetrating those memes is to delegitimize one or the other and that leads to no solutions. That's also why "indiginous" is meaningless in resolving this conflict.

You are ignoring the Jewish DNA and the studies about it.

How many of those who got tested by the results you are providing have gone to Jewish labs and taken a DNA test to prove that they have any Jewish DNA in them?

I can tell you. Zero.

Why? Because those who have made the tests you are providing, would never provide the same people they tested to prove via a Jewish DNA test, that they actually have any Jewish DNA in them.

So...you are saying that unless these genetic studies are done in a "Jewish lab" they are fraudulant?

Which does not mean that those Arabs who have any Jewish DNA in them are Jewish, all it means it that at some point in the past 1700 years, their ancestors had relations with those from the one Jewish Tribe from Arabia, whose females and children were sold into slavery in the 7th Century, or any other Jews who were forced to convert to Islam in any part of Islam conquered land, or somewho have intermarried with Arabs, since the last century, including in Israel.

I'm not saying they ARE Jewish - I'm saying they are CLOSELY RELATED and in fact MORE CLOSELY RELATED to some of the Jewish groups than to some of the Arab groups.

Why does it bother you so much to acknowledge they are closely related?

Same genetic root does not mean what you seem to think it does.

Semitic is a group of languages. The languages are similar, but not the same.

If it was a matter of being "Semitic" then all Arameic, Samaritians, etc would be also of the same genetic root as the Arabs.
So would the Copts, the Syrians, the Kurds.
All must have had intermarriages with the Arabs at some point, no matter what the number is.

DNA, the genetic roots, is about where the people come from, that is what a DNA test proves.

Can any Arab take the test and prove that they have Jewish DNA, aka, some ancestor came from the ancient land of Canaan/Israel?

That is what many are proving, from China, India, Ethiopia, etc.

When are the Arabs going to do allow Israel to conduct DNA tests on those who claim to have Jewish Ancestry?

Still, it does not mean that ALL Arabs, as they come from Arabia, have Jewish ancestry, common genetic roots, in them.

As you can tell, it is not that Arabs ARE genetically connected to Jews, is that they have been lying for the past 50 years that they have any ancestral connection at all.

Root means, Jews and Arabs come from the same place.

They do not, and Arabs know that.

Another attempt to displace the Jews from their ancient Land and turning Ancient Israel into a majority, or only, Arab population with an unproven test is nothing to get upset about.


The Jews have the part of Israel they have and they are keeping it, and keeping the country and the population safe, despite all the attempts to the contrary.

No different than it was during Greek or Roman control of their land.

No Arabs in sight.

Are you winding me up?

 

[Shusha]

In 1950, the Knesset passed the Absentees Property Law, which declared that any property situated within the post-war boundaries of Israel and owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who went abroad or to an area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property. ​

The Absentees Property Law says nothing about either Arabs or Jews.​

 

[Coyote]

...It also means that the myth that the Palestinians are mostly "foreign invaders" is just that, a myth just like the myth that the European Jews are foreign "colonizers"....

LMAO, if the European Jews are not foreign "colonizers," then what the hell are they?

Immigrants.

Arabs returning to Arabia are "immigrants" ?

Irish returning to Ireland are immigrants ?

Germans returning to Germany are immigrants?

Are they citizens of or ever lived in an Arab country?
Are they citizens of or ever lived in Ireland?
Are they citizens of or ever lived in Germany?

If no they are immigrants, migrants or tourists.

Thousands of Arabs "immigrated" to the Ottoman Empire and later Mandate for Palestine. They were not covered by a dome which allowed those Arabs living there to only "multiply naturally".


80 % of the Mandate for Palestine, the Land of Israel, is officially in the hands of Arabs.

Could Abbas, please, change the map he has of "Palestine" to not include all of Israel?

Your point is...?