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Spoiler alert: If we just ignore Tinmore's posts in this thread, he will go away.
Ha. He's finally actually contributing to the conversation. The issue of refugees has to be considered as part of the two-state solution, don't you think? What are your thoughts on that?
Hang on a second!
Let's say there IS at one point a "Palestine", so the 'refugees' will naturally move there.
That's the entire idea. We don't want those people inside OUR state.
The refugees are not to just return to Palestine but to their homes and property.Spoiler alert: If we just ignore Tinmore's posts in this thread, he will go away.
Ha. He's finally actually contributing to the conversation. The issue of refugees has to be considered as part of the two-state solution, don't you think? What are your thoughts on that?
Hang on a second!
Let's say there IS at one point a "Palestine", so the 'refugees' will naturally move there.
That's the entire idea. We don't want those people inside OUR state.
Some of the "refugees" are already in "Palestine". Gaza, Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria, and even in Jordan (part of the Mandate for Palestine).
It is not about Palestine, though. It is about Muslim honor, which cannot stand having lost the wars of 1948, 1957, 1967 and 1973 to their dhimmis. And especially to their Dhimmi Jews.
There is no incentive for the leaders to think about peace and co-exitence as long as too many Muslim and Christian countries keep donating to their "cause" which is really all about destroying Israel.
Israel does what it can, jobs, education, health, technology, helping in all of those fields, to let those who do not know it, that Israel is not occupying any "Palestinian" land, that it is a land in dispute as Israel did not expel all Arab inhabitants from Judea and Samaria in 1967 as the Arabs had done in 1948.
I think that those who want the 2 states solution just mean one for Israelis and one for the Palestinians.I'm ready to open this up with the Pro-Palestinians on this board who are willing to have a logal discussion, and those who are not haters who want Israel in the sea.
Let us talk this rationally. What exactly IS the two states solution? One for Israel and one for the Palestinians? What will be the borders of such states?
Can you openly tell me what is the benefit of the so called 67 lines? what good there is in them? and why they are better than a 1 state solution?
Please elaborate. Let us discuss this rationally. No name calling and cusses.
The refugees are not to just return to Palestine but to their homes and property.Spoiler alert: If we just ignore Tinmore's posts in this thread, he will go away.
Ha. He's finally actually contributing to the conversation. The issue of refugees has to be considered as part of the two-state solution, don't you think? What are your thoughts on that?
Hang on a second!
Let's say there IS at one point a "Palestine", so the 'refugees' will naturally move there.
That's the entire idea. We don't want those people inside OUR state.
Some of the "refugees" are already in "Palestine". Gaza, Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria, and even in Jordan (part of the Mandate for Palestine).
It is not about Palestine, though. It is about Muslim honor, which cannot stand having lost the wars of 1948, 1957, 1967 and 1973 to their dhimmis. And especially to their Dhimmi Jews.
There is no incentive for the leaders to think about peace and co-exitence as long as too many Muslim and Christian countries keep donating to their "cause" which is really all about destroying Israel.
Israel does what it can, jobs, education, health, technology, helping in all of those fields, to let those who do not know it, that Israel is not occupying any "Palestinian" land, that it is a land in dispute as Israel did not expel all Arab inhabitants from Judea and Samaria in 1967 as the Arabs had done in 1948.
11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;
Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation,
A/RES/194 (III) of 11 December 1948
The refugees are not to just return to Palestine but to their homes and property.Spoiler alert: If we just ignore Tinmore's posts in this thread, he will go away.
Ha. He's finally actually contributing to the conversation. The issue of refugees has to be considered as part of the two-state solution, don't you think? What are your thoughts on that?
Hang on a second!
Let's say there IS at one point a "Palestine", so the 'refugees' will naturally move there.
That's the entire idea. We don't want those people inside OUR state.
Some of the "refugees" are already in "Palestine". Gaza, Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria, and even in Jordan (part of the Mandate for Palestine).
It is not about Palestine, though. It is about Muslim honor, which cannot stand having lost the wars of 1948, 1957, 1967 and 1973 to their dhimmis. And especially to their Dhimmi Jews.
There is no incentive for the leaders to think about peace and co-exitence as long as too many Muslim and Christian countries keep donating to their "cause" which is really all about destroying Israel.
Israel does what it can, jobs, education, health, technology, helping in all of those fields, to let those who do not know it, that Israel is not occupying any "Palestinian" land, that it is a land in dispute as Israel did not expel all Arab inhabitants from Judea and Samaria in 1967 as the Arabs had done in 1948.
11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;
Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation,
A/RES/194 (III) of 11 December 1948
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
A Road Map for Truck BombsThis is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?All of the "Israeli" solutions deny the rights of over half of the Palestinians.
I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.
I don't think it is that simple.
The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.
I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
You haven't proposed any solution to the problem, which was the topic of this thread, and which I myself did earlier in the thread. I presented concrete proposals, which represented an evolution in my views over the years. You just reiterated what you've said a million times before, and confirmed what I've always known--that you're living in the past. With people like you who are unable to move on, that is precisely why a resolution to this conflict is very unlikely.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
From the church in Gaza.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
From the church in Gaza.
This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.And when are you going to post your solution as I asked in post #80? In your own words without any cutting and pasting?
I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.
I don't think it is that simple.
The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.
I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.
There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?
I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.
<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>
You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.
All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.
The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.
They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc
Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.
There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.
A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.
The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.
Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.
Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.
Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.
Egypt and Jordan did it.
Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
From the church in Gaza.
They have to leave at least one token church around, for the time being at least.
This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.It is just that the Palestinians call for equal rights and the Israelis call for expelling and killing.
I think this is indicative of the moral values of the people involved.
I don't think it is that simple.
The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.
I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.
There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?
I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.
<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>
You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.
All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.
The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.
They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc
Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.
There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.
A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.
The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.
Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.
Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.
Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.
Egypt and Jordan did it.
Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.
The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned
The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.
They were really there first before the Mayflower and all others began to arrive and not be happy later with what was available for them.
Palestinian priest wants one-state solution with Palestinians in charge goes viral in Muslim world.
From the church in Gaza.
Directly from Gaza:
Reporter: Tell me Sir, how do you like to live in Gaza which is free of Jews.
Gaza Resident: Just love it. That is how all Muslim Land should be.
Jew Free.
We are lucky that no Jews live here.
We have only our leaders to blame around here....... secretly.
They start a war, we blame Israel
No water, we blame Israel.
No electricity, we blame Israel.
No homes, we blame Israel.
No medicine, taken by Hamas, we blame Israel.
No peace, we blame Israel.
And the Jews can do nothing about it
I just love living in Jew Free Gaza !!!!
This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.I don't think it is that simple.
The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.
I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.
There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?
I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.
<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>
You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.
All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.
The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.
They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc
Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.
There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.
A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.
The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.
Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.
Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.
Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.
Egypt and Jordan did it.
Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.
The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned
The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.
Please, do not offend the First Nations.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.
Arabs are from Arabia
Jews are from Judea
This Was the Neanderthal-Like Species the Great Wall of China Was Built AgainstThis is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.I don't think it is that simple.
The Palestinians might be calling for equal rights but many are also unwilling to allow Israeli Jews to remain there in the settlements should that become part of their new state. In other words they are calling for expelling. Likewise...they are and have been killing.
I think it's a mistake to broad brush the moral values of a people in that way - neither the Palestinians nor the Israeli's.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.
There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?
I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.
<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>
You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.
All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.
The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.
They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc
Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.
There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.
A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.
The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.
Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.
Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.
Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.
Egypt and Jordan did it.
Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.
The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned
The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.
Please, do not offend the First Nations.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.
Arabs are from Arabia
Jews are from Judea
What about the Palestinians who owned homes, farms, orange groves, and shops in what is now Israel?
Also -- what about the Jews who owned homes, farms, orange groves and shops in their former places of residence? We can't unbreak that egg. We just can't.
But there are lots of possibilities for restitution. Compensation is probably the most practical. Palestinian descendants of refugees who are stateless and living in unacceptable conditions should be given the option to choose their national citizenship -- Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese or Palestinian and be relocated there, with generous compensation. Descendants of refugees who have already resettled elsewhere, if they wish to return, should have to apply to which ever country they wish to immigrate to. I think there is room to consider permitting the actual refugees (not the descendants) to return to their places of origin should they wish, and even to their actual homes or orchards or shops, if that is possible.
We can't put things back the way they were. There is no way to do that. But we can ensure that all peoples affected by the conflict live safe, comfortable lives. And that has always been the goal of human rights.
This is a difficult topic to discuss because the truth is untenable. Mentioning the truth brings an onslaught name calling and accusations. We will never achieve peace until the core issues are addressed. When the Palestinians, and others, call Israel 1948 occupied Palestine they are correct. No amount of time or political recognition will change that fact.
Israel is a settler colonial project. Both Britain and the Zionists said this regularly during the mandate period. That is what they called it. That is what it was. The facts on the ground confirm it. Nobody can deny it.
Settler colonialism is not an event it is a process that continues to today. Settler colonialism is the removal of the native population and replacing them with another people. We can see this process before our eyes. It is in the news all the time.
Now, how do we unwind this and fix the problem?
The problem is, 1948 is 70 years ago. And in the meantime a state has been established. You can't unwind it.
There is also another aspect that is ignored. It's inaccurate to claim it's just the Jews colonizing a foreign land. It isn't just that. It's a bit of land, where multiple peoples live and have a heritage. During the Jewish nationalistic struggle for that bit of land, there was an Arab nationalistic struggle for that same land. But there seems to be a deliberate ignoring of the fact that the Jews were just as much the local people. There are arguments about immigration. You have one side claiming the Palestinians are all foreign squatters and the other claiming the Jews are all foreign invaders. But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration. Going against the "colonial settlement" model is the fact that Jews were also indiginous. There have always been Jewish people there, even though many more migrated in. Now if you are going to complain about that then why aren't you complaining the Arabs who immigrated into the area and are just as foreign as the Europeans? And - why don't you acknowledge that the Jews also have a right to be there and have as much right to form a state in that period of time as the Palestinian Arabs did?
I don't think your going to fix the problem by "unwinding" history and you can't fix an injustice by creating more injustices. You have to take what is there as it is now and work with it. That means Israel, as a Jewish state, is not going to disappear. It's established, it's proven it can run and hold a state, even though it most certainly has serious issues regarding equality and justice, it's far more democratic, and has a far higher standard of human rights and religious freedom then any of it's neighboring states. So fixing the problem should not be ending Israel's existence as a Jewish state because the Jews have as much right as the Palestinians to be there and to form a state.
<<But the truth is - both are native, and both sustained an influx of immigration.>>
You seem to miss the meaning of the word Native/Indigenous.
All the tribes living in the Americas and Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand before the 1492 European "discovery" and colonization are the Indigenous, Native people of the land.
The people who had a Nation, culture and history living at the time of the various European invasions, or even the Assyrian invasion, were the Jewish People, also known as the Jewish Nation.
They were there when the Greeks, Romans, Byzantine and the Muslims arrived on that land. It is all recorded in their documents, books, etc
Native = Indigenous = having formed a distinct people whose ancient history happened on that piece of land.
There are the Pagan, Christian and Muslim invaders of the Jewish Homeland, what had been the Nation of Israel.
A new majority due to Muslim and Christian migration to the land does not make that land, or in the Americas, etc.... any less belonging to any of the 500 First Nations, or the Mayans, Aztecs, etc.
All it means is that since that invasion the Indigenous people lost sovereignty over their land.
The Jews worked for and regained sovereignty over some of their land. Only 20% out of 100% of it, as it had been promised.
Muslims are totally against any Muslim conquered land being taken away from them by non Muslims.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of the conflict. And why hamas and the PA will never accept any peace treaty with Israel as Egypt and Jordan were forced to do, due to financial considerations for their countries.
Jordan is already a State carved out of Palestine.
Gaza should have become another one once Israel withdrew all Israelis in 2005.
Hamas did not want a State.
Their charter demands the destruction of all of Israel as a Jewish State, and a Muslim one in its place.
It is the same thing with Abbas, the PLO, Fatah.
Defunding those Muslim organizations and UNWRA would be the first step to having those groups accept Israel as a State, and accepting to negotiate a Peace Treaty.
Egypt and Jordan did it.
Now is time for the other Muslims to do the same.
The Holy Land Was Hollow Before the Jews Returned
The rational historical analogy is just the opposite. The Israelis are our brave and productive pioneers, the Arabs are the useless Indian savages.
Please, do not offend the First Nations.
All water for Europeans, all desert for the Indians.
Arabs are from Arabia
Jews are from Judea
That's not really true. The term "Arab" has come to include a wide variety of peoples who's cultures have been "Arabisized" - Arabic is the common language, and the culture is Arab influenced but that doesn't mean they came from Arabia.
