lets discuss some misconceptions about al qaeda, different taliban groups, etc

[blu]

1) what is your understanding of both the pakistan & afghan taliban?

The Taliban in Afghanistan rose to power in the midst of Afghanistan's period of civil strife in the early 1990's. "Mullah" Mohammed Omar led a small group of armed students (taliban in Pashto) against local warlords; the movement grew and initially enjoyed popular and international support due to its harsh crackdown on criminal warlords and its introduction of what could loosely be described as order. The newly-established government espoused a repressive ideology that had little true basis in Islam (few of the movement's leaders had any substantial amount of formal religious instruction) and un-Islamic bans were introduced on practices ranging from kite-flying to dancing to the education of women. If by "pakistan taliban" you mean the Pakistani Tehrik-i-Taliban, they're a newer movement led by Baitullah Mehsud that has been engaged in insurgent activities against the Pakistani government. An alliance of sorts was forged between this group and Mohammed Omar's Taliban, now based in Pakistan, fairly recently.

2) what was their relationship leading up to 9/11 and what is now?

The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan did not exist before 9/11. Their current relationship is as I described above.


Usama bin Ladin relocated to Afghanistan after attempts were made to apprehend him in Sudan. His decision to provide a number of troops for Mohammed Omar when the Taliban were slaughtering the Hazara solidified the initially shaky relationship between the two men and their respective movements. After 9/11, Afghanistan refused to extradite Usama bin Ladin unconditionally, asking that evidence of his involvement in the attacks be presented and that he be tried according to Islamic law if turned over. These offers were turned down and America began its bombing campaign in Afghanistan with ground support from the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Northern Afghanistan.


The Taliban concern themselves almost exclusively with Afghanistan. Their interest in foreigners was, for the most part, limited to the illegal drug trade.


Al-Qa'idah was formed in Pakistan after a meeting between Usama bin Ladin, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and Abdullah Azzam. Usama bin Ladin had fought beside those who would become the Taliban during the jihad against the Soviet occupiers. Abdullah Azzam had provided ideological support to the resistance in Afghanistan. By now, the relationship is non-existent and few traces of al-Qa'idah remain in Afghanistan. As mentioned, the Taliban had previously allowed them to base themselves in Afghanistan.


In one incident, the Taliban killed a dozen or so Iranian diplomats in Afghanistan, which sent Iran into an uproar. Hundreds of thousands of Iranian troops were mobilized, but nothing of significance ended up happening. Iran provided funding for the United Islamic Front when they fought the Taliban in the Afghan Civil War.


Al-Qa'idah is a takfiri organization that views Shi'ites as non-Muslims and most other Muslims as "heretics." Shi'ites are regarded as one of al-Qa'idah's enemies.


Probably. Both groups are ideologically inconsistent and insincere in their beliefs, so they'd most likely accept assistance from anyone, even an "enemy."

9) what is each group's connection to saudi arabi?

Usama bin Ladin's family is part of what can be considered the Saudi aristocracy. Usama bin Ladin was educated in Saudi Arabia and returned there for a period of time after his participation in the jihad in Afghanistan, leaving after his offer to assist the Saudi government in repelling Saddam Hussein's incursion into Kuwait was rejected in favor of assistance from America. America's presence in the Arabian peninsula at the behest of the Saudi government led bin Ladin to regard Saudi Arabia as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, along with Pakistan and the UAE, was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. They provided the Taliban with a substantial amount of financial assistance until relations between the two countries soured, culminating in the expulsion of a Taliban envoy from Saudi Arabia after the Taliban reportedly insulted Saudi royalty.

10) what is each group's connection to irsael?

Al-Qa'idah views Israel as one of its principle enemies and its destruction as a major goals. America's support for Israel has consistently been cited as one of the primary motivations behind the 9/11 attacks. Their actual involvement in Palestine has been virtually nonexistant, however, as they and Hamas see each other as enemies due to significant ideological differences and Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Taliban have virtually no real interest in Israel.

what an answer!!! I knew much of what you said, but the detail was incredible and I didn't realize a bit of the history in the pakistan taliban. I also had not heard of the iran diplomat killings in afgh.

 

[Kalam]

what an answer!!! I knew much of what you said, but the detail was incredible and I didn't realize a bit of the history in the pakistan taliban. I also had not heard of the iran diplomat killings in afgh.

You caught me at a good time, I just read up on the Taliban again not too long ago.

Here's some more info on the conflict between Iran and the Taliban:
September 15, 1998 IRANIAN-AFGHAN TENSIONS: 'A FULL-BLOWN REGIONAL CRISIS IS BREWING'

If you don't mind sharing them at some point, I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the Taliban and al-Qa'idah as well.

 

[blu]

what an answer!!! I knew much of what you said, but the detail was incredible and I didn't realize a bit of the history in the pakistan taliban. I also had not heard of the iran diplomat killings in afgh.

You caught me at a good time, I just read up on the Taliban again not too long ago.

Here's some more info on the conflict between Iran and the Taliban:
September 15, 1998 IRANIAN-AFGHAN TENSIONS: 'A FULL-BLOWN REGIONAL CRISIS IS BREWING'

If you don't mind sharing them at some point, I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the Taliban and al-Qa'idah as well.

I can give a more detailed answer later, but my interest in learning the intricacies of the afghan taliban mostly stopped after learning of their lack of foreign ambition and that they really are only fighting against us and the other nato forces because we invaded their homeland. it also seemed really fishy to me that we allowed their drug trade to continue running, when if we would have choked it out when we first invaded, their money supply would be severely restricted or depleted by now. I think it was another short site by our admins thinking it would be a quick war and a futile/naive attempt to appease locals who wouldn't have liked us either way.

the pakistan taliban became interesting to me as stratfor, the intelligence service I subscribe to, covered them extensively in the past and still has through the south warizstan invasion through the even more recent activities. pakistan also obviously played a vital role in harboring groups/people in the border regions that were attacking usa troops then retreating back into safe areas. I think it was a colossal failure on bush's part not to got into the fata areas like obama has. pakistan may talk tough, but between our foreign aid, cia cooperation with them, etc, they never would have killed our troops and the other stuff they said when bush brought it up and when obama started talking about it.

to me, al qaeda is the only threat between the three groups. once we leave afgh, the taliban there will take over like they were before and pakistan will either continue its internal war, or let the taliban there roam free like they did before. during our two wars, not only has al qaeda gained another safe haven in iraq, but it has also now spread from traditional areas to now extensively in northen africa. al qaeda also worries me because iran is already using aqap as another proxy against us and the dec 25th failed bombing was proof of their power in this area. they will also continue fund al qaeda (even though as you said they have ideological issues) as we ramp up pressure against iran's nuclear program.

not sure if this was a lame answer or not, but I can expand more if you want.

 

[jillian]

Ask-Imam.com [5115] Plz tell me about Osama bin ladin and Taliban
Taliban was a valid Shar'ee government. The methods adopted by the Taliban
were in accordance to the Shari'ah. In the Shari'ah. The Imaam (Islamic
ruler) has the right and duty to enforce the external laws of the Shari'ah.
This had been the practice of the four rightly guided Khulafaa Raashideen.

More details about the taliban


Ask-Imam.com [2492] your views on the actions of talibans.

cause sharia wants acid thrown in the face of girls who go to school.

 

[Kalam]

cause sharia wants acid thrown in the face of girls who go to school.

Not even slaves are to be deprived.

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: The Prophet said, "He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then frees and marries her, will get a double reward; and any slave who observes Allah's right and his master's right will get a double reward." - Sahih Bukhari, Manumission of Slaves, no. 723​

 

[Kalam]

what an answer!!! I knew much of what you said, but the detail was incredible and I didn't realize a bit of the history in the pakistan taliban. I also had not heard of the iran diplomat killings in afgh.

You caught me at a good time, I just read up on the Taliban again not too long ago.

Here's some more info on the conflict between Iran and the Taliban:
September 15, 1998 IRANIAN-AFGHAN TENSIONS: 'A FULL-BLOWN REGIONAL CRISIS IS BREWING'

If you don't mind sharing them at some point, I'm interested in hearing your impressions of the Taliban and al-Qa'idah as well.

I can give a more detailed answer later, but my interest in learning the intricacies of the afghan taliban mostly stopped after learning of their lack of foreign ambition and that they really are only fighting against us and the other nato forces because we invaded their homeland. it also seemed really fishy to me that we allowed their drug trade to continue running, when if we would have choked it out when we first invaded, their money supply would be severely restricted or depleted by now. I think it was another short site by our admins thinking it would be a quick war and a futile/naive attempt to appease locals who wouldn't have liked us either way.

the pakistan taliban became interesting to me as stratfor, the intelligence service I subscribe to, covered them extensively in the past and still has through the south warizstan invasion through the even more recent activities. pakistan also obviously played a vital role in harboring groups/people in the border regions that were attacking usa troops then retreating back into safe areas. I think it was a colossal failure on bush's part not to got into the fata areas like obama has. pakistan may talk tough, but between our foreign aid, cia cooperation with them, etc, they never would have killed our troops and the other stuff they said when bush brought it up and when obama started talking about it.

to me, al qaeda is the only threat between the three groups. once we leave afgh, the taliban there will take over like they were before and pakistan will either continue its internal war, or let the taliban there roam free like they did before. during our two wars, not only has al qaeda gained another safe haven in iraq, but it has also now spread from traditional areas to now extensively in northen africa. al qaeda also worries me because iran is already using aqap as another proxy against us and the dec 25th failed bombing was proof of their power in this area. they will also continue fund al qaeda (even though as you said they have ideological issues) as we ramp up pressure against iran's nuclear program.

not sure if this was a lame answer or not, but I can expand more if you want.

I have to do something for a second, but I'll respond shortly...

 

[rdean]

1) what is your understanding of both the pakistan & afghan taliban?

The Taliban in Afghanistan rose to power in the midst of Afghanistan's period of civil strife in the early 1990's. "Mullah" Mohammed Omar led a small group of armed students (taliban in Pashto) against local warlords; the movement grew and initially enjoyed popular and international support due to its harsh crackdown on criminal warlords and its introduction of what could loosely be described as order. The newly-established government espoused a repressive ideology that had little true basis in Islam (few of the movement's leaders had any substantial amount of formal religious instruction) and un-Islamic bans were introduced on practices ranging from kite-flying to dancing to the education of women. If by "pakistan taliban" you mean the Pakistani Tehrik-i-Taliban, they're a newer movement led by Baitullah Mehsud that has been engaged in insurgent activities against the Pakistani government. An alliance of sorts was forged between this group and Mohammed Omar's Taliban, now based in Pakistan, fairly recently.

2) what was their relationship leading up to 9/11 and what is now?

The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan did not exist before 9/11. Their current relationship is as I described above.


Usama bin Ladin relocated to Afghanistan after attempts were made to apprehend him in Sudan. His decision to provide a number of troops for Mohammed Omar when the Taliban were slaughtering the Hazara solidified the initially shaky relationship between the two men and their respective movements. After 9/11, Afghanistan refused to extradite Usama bin Ladin unconditionally, asking that evidence of his involvement in the attacks be presented and that he be tried according to Islamic law if turned over. These offers were turned down and America began its bombing campaign in Afghanistan with ground support from the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Northern Afghanistan.


The Taliban concern themselves almost exclusively with Afghanistan. Their interest in foreigners was, for the most part, limited to the illegal drug trade.


Al-Qa'idah was formed in Pakistan after a meeting between Usama bin Ladin, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and Abdullah Azzam. Usama bin Ladin had fought beside those who would become the Taliban during the jihad against the Soviet occupiers. Abdullah Azzam had provided ideological support to the resistance in Afghanistan. By now, the relationship is non-existent and few traces of al-Qa'idah remain in Afghanistan. As mentioned, the Taliban had previously allowed them to base themselves in Afghanistan.


In one incident, the Taliban killed a dozen or so Iranian diplomats in Afghanistan, which sent Iran into an uproar. Hundreds of thousands of Iranian troops were mobilized, but nothing of significance ended up happening. Iran provided funding for the United Islamic Front when they fought the Taliban in the Afghan Civil War.


Al-Qa'idah is a takfiri organization that views Shi'ites as non-Muslims and most other Muslims as "heretics." Shi'ites are regarded as one of al-Qa'idah's enemies.


Probably. Both groups are ideologically inconsistent and insincere in their beliefs, so they'd most likely accept assistance from anyone, even an "enemy."

9) what is each group's connection to saudi arabi?

Usama bin Ladin's family is part of what can be considered the Saudi aristocracy. Usama bin Ladin was educated in Saudi Arabia and returned there for a period of time after his participation in the jihad in Afghanistan, leaving after his offer to assist the Saudi government in repelling Saddam Hussein's incursion into Kuwait was rejected in favor of assistance from America. America's presence in the Arabian peninsula at the behest of the Saudi government led bin Ladin to regard Saudi Arabia as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, along with Pakistan and the UAE, was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. They provided the Taliban with a substantial amount of financial assistance until relations between the two countries soured, culminating in the expulsion of a Taliban envoy from Saudi Arabia after the Taliban reportedly insulted Saudi royalty.

10) what is each group's connection to irsael?

Al-Qa'idah views Israel as one of its principle enemies and its destruction as a major goals. America's support for Israel has consistently been cited as one of the primary motivations behind the 9/11 attacks. Their actual involvement in Palestine has been virtually nonexistant, however, as they and Hamas see each other as enemies due to significant ideological differences and Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Taliban have virtually no real interest in Israel.

Great post, much more thorough than what I wrote in #27.

It's important to note why Sunnis and Shiites are not "friends", al Qaeda is Sunni
Iran is Shiite, their religious faction are headed by a different son of Mohamed.

Arab support for the US is the reason Bin Laden gave for his deadly attacks on the US. The US helping the Arab world was the right thing to do. We are not responsible for Bin Laden's attacks. He did that because he is a mad dog. However, Bush and the Republcians convincing America to invade Iraq turned all that good will against us.

Bin Laden and Saddam were deadly enemies because Bin Laden wanted to lead a coalition to drive Saddam out of Kuwait which is why it was a disgraceful lie to link Bin Laden to Saddam.

Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite. He was a disaster. Imagine McCain as "president". How can you not know "everything" about your enemy? It's called a "lack of curiosity".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6GBdyws5YU]YouTube - McCain's Foreign Policy Gaffe (CBS News)[/ame]

 

[blu]

1) what is your understanding of both the pakistan & afghan taliban?

The Taliban in Afghanistan rose to power in the midst of Afghanistan's period of civil strife in the early 1990's. "Mullah" Mohammed Omar led a small group of armed students (taliban in Pashto) against local warlords; the movement grew and initially enjoyed popular and international support due to its harsh crackdown on criminal warlords and its introduction of what could loosely be described as order. The newly-established government espoused a repressive ideology that had little true basis in Islam (few of the movement's leaders had any substantial amount of formal religious instruction) and un-Islamic bans were introduced on practices ranging from kite-flying to dancing to the education of women. If by "pakistan taliban" you mean the Pakistani Tehrik-i-Taliban, they're a newer movement led by Baitullah Mehsud that has been engaged in insurgent activities against the Pakistani government. An alliance of sorts was forged between this group and Mohammed Omar's Taliban, now based in Pakistan, fairly recently.


The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan did not exist before 9/11. Their current relationship is as I described above.


Usama bin Ladin relocated to Afghanistan after attempts were made to apprehend him in Sudan. His decision to provide a number of troops for Mohammed Omar when the Taliban were slaughtering the Hazara solidified the initially shaky relationship between the two men and their respective movements. After 9/11, Afghanistan refused to extradite Usama bin Ladin unconditionally, asking that evidence of his involvement in the attacks be presented and that he be tried according to Islamic law if turned over. These offers were turned down and America began its bombing campaign in Afghanistan with ground support from the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Northern Afghanistan.


The Taliban concern themselves almost exclusively with Afghanistan. Their interest in foreigners was, for the most part, limited to the illegal drug trade.


Al-Qa'idah was formed in Pakistan after a meeting between Usama bin Ladin, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and Abdullah Azzam. Usama bin Ladin had fought beside those who would become the Taliban during the jihad against the Soviet occupiers. Abdullah Azzam had provided ideological support to the resistance in Afghanistan. By now, the relationship is non-existent and few traces of al-Qa'idah remain in Afghanistan. As mentioned, the Taliban had previously allowed them to base themselves in Afghanistan.


In one incident, the Taliban killed a dozen or so Iranian diplomats in Afghanistan, which sent Iran into an uproar. Hundreds of thousands of Iranian troops were mobilized, but nothing of significance ended up happening. Iran provided funding for the United Islamic Front when they fought the Taliban in the Afghan Civil War.


Al-Qa'idah is a takfiri organization that views Shi'ites as non-Muslims and most other Muslims as "heretics." Shi'ites are regarded as one of al-Qa'idah's enemies.


Probably. Both groups are ideologically inconsistent and insincere in their beliefs, so they'd most likely accept assistance from anyone, even an "enemy."


Usama bin Ladin's family is part of what can be considered the Saudi aristocracy. Usama bin Ladin was educated in Saudi Arabia and returned there for a period of time after his participation in the jihad in Afghanistan, leaving after his offer to assist the Saudi government in repelling Saddam Hussein's incursion into Kuwait was rejected in favor of assistance from America. America's presence in the Arabian peninsula at the behest of the Saudi government led bin Ladin to regard Saudi Arabia as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, along with Pakistan and the UAE, was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. They provided the Taliban with a substantial amount of financial assistance until relations between the two countries soured, culminating in the expulsion of a Taliban envoy from Saudi Arabia after the Taliban reportedly insulted Saudi royalty.

10) what is each group's connection to irsael?

Al-Qa'idah views Israel as one of its principle enemies and its destruction as a major goals. America's support for Israel has consistently been cited as one of the primary motivations behind the 9/11 attacks. Their actual involvement in Palestine has been virtually nonexistant, however, as they and Hamas see each other as enemies due to significant ideological differences and Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Taliban have virtually no real interest in Israel.

Great post, much more thorough than what I wrote in #27.

It's important to note why Sunnis and Shiites are not "friends", al Qaeda is Sunni
Iran is Shiite, their religious faction are headed by a different son of Mohamed.

Arab support for the US is the reason Bin Laden gave for his deadly attacks on the US. The US helping the Arab world was the right thing to do. We are not responsible for Bin Laden's attacks. He did that because he is a mad dog. However, Bush and the Republcians convincing America to invade Iraq turned all that good will against us.

Bin Laden and Saddam were deadly enemies because Bin Laden wanted to lead a coalition to drive Saddam out of Kuwait which is why it was a disgraceful lie to link Bin Laden to Saddam.

Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite. He was a disaster. Imagine McCain as "president". How can you not know "everything" about your enemy? It's called a "lack of curiosity".

I know the history of islam starting with the early days due to my deep interest in the battle of uhud in which khalid owned the shit out of people all the up through somewhat modern times. there were also a number of reasons cited for 9/11 including support for israel, previous indiscriminate and ongoing bombing of iraq, interference in ME internal affairs, etc besides just kuwait, basically everything we did over there pissed them off. I don't even know if it matters if our leaders understand the differences between islamic groups, because even obama who does understand them continued the same failed polices as bush and as mccain would have done.

 

[rdean]

The Taliban in Afghanistan rose to power in the midst of Afghanistan's period of civil strife in the early 1990's. "Mullah" Mohammed Omar led a small group of armed students (taliban in Pashto) against local warlords; the movement grew and initially enjoyed popular and international support due to its harsh crackdown on criminal warlords and its introduction of what could loosely be described as order. The newly-established government espoused a repressive ideology that had little true basis in Islam (few of the movement's leaders had any substantial amount of formal religious instruction) and un-Islamic bans were introduced on practices ranging from kite-flying to dancing to the education of women. If by "pakistan taliban" you mean the Pakistani Tehrik-i-Taliban, they're a newer movement led by Baitullah Mehsud that has been engaged in insurgent activities against the Pakistani government. An alliance of sorts was forged between this group and Mohammed Omar's Taliban, now based in Pakistan, fairly recently.


The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan did not exist before 9/11. Their current relationship is as I described above.


Usama bin Ladin relocated to Afghanistan after attempts were made to apprehend him in Sudan. His decision to provide a number of troops for Mohammed Omar when the Taliban were slaughtering the Hazara solidified the initially shaky relationship between the two men and their respective movements. After 9/11, Afghanistan refused to extradite Usama bin Ladin unconditionally, asking that evidence of his involvement in the attacks be presented and that he be tried according to Islamic law if turned over. These offers were turned down and America began its bombing campaign in Afghanistan with ground support from the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Northern Afghanistan.


The Taliban concern themselves almost exclusively with Afghanistan. Their interest in foreigners was, for the most part, limited to the illegal drug trade.


Al-Qa'idah was formed in Pakistan after a meeting between Usama bin Ladin, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and Abdullah Azzam. Usama bin Ladin had fought beside those who would become the Taliban during the jihad against the Soviet occupiers. Abdullah Azzam had provided ideological support to the resistance in Afghanistan. By now, the relationship is non-existent and few traces of al-Qa'idah remain in Afghanistan. As mentioned, the Taliban had previously allowed them to base themselves in Afghanistan.


In one incident, the Taliban killed a dozen or so Iranian diplomats in Afghanistan, which sent Iran into an uproar. Hundreds of thousands of Iranian troops were mobilized, but nothing of significance ended up happening. Iran provided funding for the United Islamic Front when they fought the Taliban in the Afghan Civil War.


Al-Qa'idah is a takfiri organization that views Shi'ites as non-Muslims and most other Muslims as "heretics." Shi'ites are regarded as one of al-Qa'idah's enemies.


Probably. Both groups are ideologically inconsistent and insincere in their beliefs, so they'd most likely accept assistance from anyone, even an "enemy."


Usama bin Ladin's family is part of what can be considered the Saudi aristocracy. Usama bin Ladin was educated in Saudi Arabia and returned there for a period of time after his participation in the jihad in Afghanistan, leaving after his offer to assist the Saudi government in repelling Saddam Hussein's incursion into Kuwait was rejected in favor of assistance from America. America's presence in the Arabian peninsula at the behest of the Saudi government led bin Ladin to regard Saudi Arabia as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, along with Pakistan and the UAE, was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. They provided the Taliban with a substantial amount of financial assistance until relations between the two countries soured, culminating in the expulsion of a Taliban envoy from Saudi Arabia after the Taliban reportedly insulted Saudi royalty.


Al-Qa'idah views Israel as one of its principle enemies and its destruction as a major goals. America's support for Israel has consistently been cited as one of the primary motivations behind the 9/11 attacks. Their actual involvement in Palestine has been virtually nonexistant, however, as they and Hamas see each other as enemies due to significant ideological differences and Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Taliban have virtually no real interest in Israel.

Great post, much more thorough than what I wrote in #27.

It's important to note why Sunnis and Shiites are not "friends", al Qaeda is Sunni
Iran is Shiite, their religious faction are headed by a different son of Mohamed.

Arab support for the US is the reason Bin Laden gave for his deadly attacks on the US. The US helping the Arab world was the right thing to do. We are not responsible for Bin Laden's attacks. He did that because he is a mad dog. However, Bush and the Republcians convincing America to invade Iraq turned all that good will against us.

Bin Laden and Saddam were deadly enemies because Bin Laden wanted to lead a coalition to drive Saddam out of Kuwait which is why it was a disgraceful lie to link Bin Laden to Saddam.

Bush didn't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite. He was a disaster. Imagine McCain as "president". How can you not know "everything" about your enemy? It's called a "lack of curiosity".

I know the history of islam starting with the early days due to my deep interest in the battle of uhud in which khalid owned the shit out of people all the up through somewhat modern times. there were also a number of reasons cited for 9/11 including support for israel, previous indiscriminate and ongoing bombing of iraq, interference in ME internal affairs, etc besides just kuwait, basically everything we did over there pissed them off. I don't even know if it matters if our leaders understand the differences between islamic groups, because even obama who does understand them continued the same failed polices as bush and as mccain would have done.

I have to disagree. After one year, it's difficult to know what Obama's policies are. Republicans seem to think that Obama could just "leave Iraq" and "do what ever he wants". They don't seem to understand that Bush, by signing treaties and contracts, hamstrung Obama and this nation for years to come.

Then, by ignoring Afghanistan, the problem was allowed to grow and fester. Pakistan sees "India" and not the "Taliban" as their enemy. But the fact that Obama convinced Pakistani military leaders to arrest and capture Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar proves that he is having some success gaining their support.

I believe that we can eventually have more success in Afghanistan than Iraq. We don't need to turn Afghanistan into a "modern, technological" country. We only have to bring enough stability that they aren't a breeding ground for terrorists.

Iraq is an unparalleled disaster. Women back in bags under Sharia law, gays murdered (you won't hear many Republcians complain about that), a million Christians scattered or murdered, Sunnis denied candidates in elections. Bush left this mess for Obama and believe it, Republcians will blame it on Obama when this mess blows up. I wrote that 3 years ago. Didn't matter who the Democrat (and after Bush, we knew for sure a Democrat would win - any Democrat) was who became president, Republicans will still lay the blame. You could see it coming from a mile off.

--------------------------------

Sectarian tension grows after 400 nominees barred - Move justified as a push against Saddam loyalists

Sunni Muslim candidates may not be allowed to run in 'Democratic Iraq' elections -- Signs of the Times News

 

[blu]

I have to disagree. After one year, it's difficult to know what Obama's policies are. Republicans seem to think that Obama could just "leave Iraq" and "do what ever he wants". They don't seem to understand that Bush, by signing treaties and contracts, hamstrung Obama and this nation for years to come.

he campaigned on more troops to Afghanistan and continued military fight against the taliban there and has done it. he extended bush's policies by choice

Then, by ignoring Afghanistan, the problem was allowed to grow and fester. Pakistan sees "India" and not the "Taliban" as their enemy. But the fact that Obama convinced Pakistani military leaders to arrest and capture Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar proves that he is having some success gaining their support.

pakistan sees its own taliban as a threat when it can't control it. and saying obama simply convinced them is a bit off. it was a lot of threats to get the pakistan government to do anything.

I believe that we can eventually have more success in Afghanistan than Iraq. We don't need to turn Afghanistan into a "modern, technological" country. We only have to bring enough stability that they aren't a breeding ground for terrorists.

which imo means working with the sane members of the taliban there in order to root out al qaedas presence and free roam in the region. I don't see it happening though

Iraq is an unparalleled disaster. Women back in bags under Sharia law, gays murdered (you won't hear many Republcians complain about that), a million Christians scattered or murdered, Sunnis denied candidates in elections. Bush left this mess for Obama and believe it, Republcians will blame it on Obama when this mess blows up. I wrote that 3 years ago. Didn't matter who the Democrat (and after Bush, we knew for sure a Democrat would win - any Democrat) was who became president, Republicans will still lay the blame. You could see it coming from a mile off.

most republicans claim a military win and some nonsense about freedoms given without realizing understanding anything beyond that. not sure how to think about this people except that they are hacks. iraq is fucked though basically. as soon as we leave the paid off groups will start fighting again (now with our money to fund their operations) and iran will proxy control through its tribal groups and al qeade will setup another haven.