CDZ Let's run a little experiment. Topic: Paying for College

[Mac1958]

I wonder if we could do a reverse Social Security type system. Where by the following happens. Every adult, when they turn 18 get 60 hours paid for by the government and an option for 60 more hours. Meaning that you get an associate's degree paid for by Uncle Sam. And, like Social Security where you pay some every paycheck, you pay for the college over your work life through payroll deduction. You can use the 60 hours however you want. You don't have to use them all. And you can pay it back early if you want.

For those fresh out of HS and want to get into a 4 year university...the 60 hours can be used for the basics at a JUCO before transferring to a 4 year university or they can be used at the university itself.

• For those in a career (or those fresh out of HS), they can get a training certificate and only have to pay back what they used...not 60 hours.
• For those who are doing the whole 4 year thing, the first 60 hours being paid back are at a lower interest rate than the next 60 hours.
• The hours can be used for anything. If you want to get a degree...fine. If you just want to take some classes because you're interested in creative writing, theater, ballet, etc... Remember, you're on the hook for whatever you spend until it's paid off plus interest.

This would only be available to those attending state supported universities.

Anyway, erase the barrier for everyone to get training or a formal education and stop the haves/have-nots scenario we've constructed.

Interesting. That could cover the spectrum from advanced degrees to technical degrees to vocational degrees.

An employer can make those payments for the employee, theoretically, as a benefit and an incentive to do well and stay.

 

[JoeB131]

So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this

Capitalism is the problem, not the solution. We tell kids they need to get this piece of paper for $56,000 to get into the middle class, and the Capitalists exploit them for years.

I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools

Why should they do that? Employers know if they put out a job advertisement, they are going to get 400 resumes looking for that job, and they'll have their pick of the litter. Used to be there was job loyalty, but everyone knows that people change jobs every five years on average.

I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process

Another solutions like vouchers that will benefit the affluent, and not really help the people that need help.


I have a much better solution -

Every 18 year old has to go through two years of national service. Upon completion of that service, they receive a scholarship, contingent on maintaining a GPA of at least 2.5.

Certainly better than the Corporate Welfare solutions you've suggested.

 

[Mac1958]

That's all part of the continuing lie that a degree is the path to middle class prosperity. American universities have issued so many degrees in the past few decades that businesses can require degrees but not pay more than a good bricklayer or welder can ask for.

Here's a chicken-or-the-egg question: I wonder if our move away from a manufacturing economy to a service economy plays a role in this, making vocational degrees less valuable, or if there has been less demand for vocational degrees, speeding up the offshoring process because of the quantity and quality of applicants.

 

[occupied]

I think the problem is that so many young people borrow a shitload of money to get a degree in Polka, Portuguese Poetry or Homosexual Studies. No jobs in those fields, at least none that require an expensive degree.

The government needs to quit lending money to people in these fields, those who graduate with degrees in electrical engineering, proctology or other fields usually don't have a problem getting well paid employment. After all, there are always buildings that will need be wired and gerbils that have to be retrieved from gay guys rectums.

Those sorts of degrees are not nearly so numerous as some people seem to think. It's just an excuse to avoid doing anything about the declining value of a college degree.

 

[2aguy]

Capitalism is the problem, not the solution. We tell kids they need to get this piece of paper for $56,000 to get into the middle class, and the Capitalists exploit them for years.



Why should they do that? Employers know if they put out a job advertisement, they are going to get 400 resumes looking for that job, and they'll have their pick of the litter. Used to be there was job loyalty, but everyone knows that people change jobs every five years on average.



Another solutions like vouchers that will benefit the affluent, and not really help the people that need help.


I have a much better solution -

Every 18 year old has to go through two years of national service. Upon completion of that service, they receive a scholarship, contingent on maintaining a GPA of at least 2.5.

Certainly better than the Corporate Welfare solutions you've suggested.

The "affluent," can already pay for college for their kids...vouchers, you know, like the G.I. Bill.....allowed millions to go to college...

Our problem is the government, not capitalism.........if you had to justify to a bank why your Gender poetry studies degree would deserve a loan, you wouldn't get that loan cause the bank would know you will never pay it back...now, the government backs the loan, so every leftist gets an "I hate America studies," degree, then doesn't understand why no one will pay them more for filling coffee cups at Starbucks when they graduate.........

National Service? Nope.....no thank you. The national socialists loved programs like that.

 

[JoeMoma]

How about streamlining college degrees....why does an accountant need to spend semesters learning history or take science classes?

College is a trade school for doctors, engineers, accountants.........treat it like that. For those who want to learn English, History and the liberal arts, put them on that track..........when did plumbers and electricians waste their time on history classes?

English, History, and liberal arts can be learned online.

It would be really cool if there could be a free online college in the spirit of Khan Academy.

 

[2aguy]

English, History, and liberal arts can be learned online.

It would be really cool if there could be a free online college in the spirit of Khan Academy.

Knew ways of learning are just around the corner......the debt mess will help that along nicely.......

 

[Manonthestreet]

I wonder if we could get a grip on staff bloat.....

 

[AyeCantSeeYou]

English, History, and liberal arts can be learned online.

It would be really cool if there could be a free online college in the spirit of Khan Academy.

The closes thing to this is Google University. They have free classes and paid classes, some taught by Google employees, others by Universities around the world. People can earn job skill certificates and degrees paying far less (sometimes nothing) than what they would elsewhere.

 

[gtopa1]

This may sound strange but Universities are NOT about getting jobs; they're about Personal Development and interest. Where Unis FAIL is that they pretend a degree is a money mill. Not so. Now there ARE some crossovers OF COURSE. Engineering, Medicine, Law and Accounting may be career paths in their own right, (the last two probably better done at Tech Colleges)but most other degrees are just entry level to show employers that the person is open to developing into a useful employee as they have shown a desire to improve themselves and an ability to acquire skill sets; if they want a job out of their degree in the first place.

But it has already been said; why should the Gov pay for someone(like me and they did) to just follow their interests? I SHOULD have payed for my own studies but I didn't; Blue collar workers did through their taxes. I thank them of course and I am grateful but the system was WRONG!! (Oz; 1970s+)

The second post in the thread is spot on; Gov Guaranteed loans and Academic pigs at the trough.

Greg

 

[Flash]

 

[Mac1958]

Maybe it's time to re-think the purpose(s) of higher education. Its purpose doesn't all run along one track.

Some degrees/programs are more career and job-based. Others are more general or more culturally-based.

It seems to me that right now, institutions of higher learning have the upper hand. That sure doesn't seem like the proper priority.

 

[Dekster]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

My solution is much more practical. Bootstrap it into legislation with primary school vouchers that can also be used at private christian schools, call it the Education Liberation Act, and sit back and see if enough people's support of one is stronger than their opposition to the other. They are fundamentally the same issue--subsidizing education.

If one were intellectually honest, they would have to support both or oppose both.

 

[2aguy]

Maybe it's time to re-think the purpose(s) of higher education. Its purpose doesn't all run along one track.

Some degrees/programs are more career and job-based. Others are more general or more culturally-based.

It seems to me that right now, institutions of higher learning have the upper hand. That sure doesn't seem like the proper priority.

That sure doesn't seem like the proper priority.

The priority of leftist controlled universities is to create more leftists.....and they are doing a bang up job of that....

 

[Polishprince]

My idea for college loans is to send it to the private sector.

Let professional loan underwriters determine on a borrower by borrower basis whether they will make the loan and what amount they will lend, what vig they will require, what collateral and how many co-signers they will need.

Those who are less promising students studying less promising fields, will have to pay more interest, pledge more collateral and need better co-signers.

 

[2aguy]

My idea for college loans is to send it to the private sector.

Let professional loan underwriters determine on a borrower by borrower basis whether they will make the loan and what amount they will lend, what vig they will require, what collateral and how many co-signers they will need.

Those who are less promising students studying less promising fields, will have to pay more interest, pledge more collateral and need better co-signers.

Yep.....if banks had to be on the hook for getting a return on the "Gender Hate America Studies," degrees.....they wouldn't pay for them......but when the government will guarantee the loan, the university is free to indulge any stupid, left wing degree........the bank gets 4 years of cash because the "Gender Hate America Studies" student will make it through 4 years......since learning 50 genders is fairly easy when it is graded on a curve.....

Make the banks responsible for getting a return on the degree, and they will stop paying for stupidity....

 

[Polishprince]

Yep.....if banks had to be on the hook for getting a return on the "Gender Hate America Studies," degrees.....they wouldn't pay for them......but when the government will guarantee the loan, the university is free to indulge any stupid, left wing degree........the bank gets 4 years of cash because the "Gender Hate America Studies" student will make it through 4 years......since learning 50 genders is fairly easy when it is graded on a curve.....

Make the banks responsible for getting a return on the degree, and they will stop paying for stupidity....

Banks would definitely loan the money a lot less often. I suppose if the borrower has significant assets they are willing to pledge and relatives who are well-heeled enough and willing to co-sign, they could still study the course.

 

[2aguy]

Banks would definitely loan the money a lot less often. I suppose if the borrower has significant assets they are willing to pledge and relatives who are well-heeled enough and willing to co-sign, they could still study the course.

Yep....but they would be on the hook then for paying back that loan.....and would have to surrender those assets.....mom and dad might not be as willing to support the anti-American indoctrination of their kids in that case...

 

[JoeB131]

Here's a chicken-or-the-egg question: I wonder if our move away from a manufacturing economy to a service economy plays a role in this, making vocational degrees less valuable, or if there has been less demand for vocational degrees, speeding up the offshoring process because of the quantity and quality of applicants.

As always, works on a bunch of false premises...

America never stopped being a manufacturing economy. In fact, America's manufacturing output is higher than it's ever been.

What has changed is that thanks to automation and process improvement, less people are employed in manufacturing, just like less people are employed in agriculture than there were a 100 years ago.

America does have to put more of an emphasis in increasing our manufacturing and becoming more competitive. This is what your hero Trump got wrong. He though he could just tear up trade treaties and problem solved.

Our problem is the government, not capitalism.........if you had to justify to a bank why your Gender poetry studies degree would deserve a loan, you wouldn't get that loan cause the bank would know you will never pay it back...now, the government backs the loan, so every leftist gets an "I hate America studies," degree, then doesn't understand why no one will pay them more for filling coffee cups at Starbucks when they graduate.........

Not this argument again! Nobody is getting degrees in "Gender Poetry".

Here's the thing... thanks to the Great Resignation, Starbucks is having a hard time finding those graduates... My local Starbucks closes early because they can't find enough staff. The problem here is that we have 360,000 boomers retiring every month, and not enough Millennials to replace them.

You work on the assumption that the banks really care if you can pay it back or not. They don't. Why should they? Only 8% of Student loans default.

You had your hero Betsy DeVos running corrupt diploma mills and grabbing the government cheese with both hands.

National Service? Nope.....no thank you. The national socialists loved programs like that.

So did America up until the 1970's. Frankly, the worst thing we did was end national service because the rich were abusing it.

 

[JoeB131]

Yep....but they would be on the hook then for paying back that loan.....and would have to surrender those assets.....mom and dad might not be as willing to support the anti-American indoctrination of their kids in that case...

So that's what you are upset about... that they are teaching these kids ideas you don't like.

Has it occurred to you that these kids watch their parents get worked to death by the Corporate Machine, and they need very little prompting.

Here's a hint. I'm as horrified by the rise of Bernie Sanders as you are. Almost as horrifying as the rise of Trump. It tells me that people have no more faith in democracy, and echos of Weimar...