CDZ Let's run a little experiment. Topic: Paying for College

[Polishprince]

As always, works on a bunch of false premises...

America never stopped being a manufacturing economy. In fact, America's manufacturing output is higher than it's ever been.

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What has changed is that thanks to automation and process improvement, less people are employed in manufacturing, just like less people are employed in agriculture than there were a 100 years ago.

America does have to put more of an emphasis in increasing our manufacturing and becoming more competitive. This is what your hero Trump got wrong. He though he could just tear up trade treaties and problem solved.




Not this argument again! Nobody is getting degrees in "Gender Poetry".

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Here's the thing... thanks to the Great Resignation, Starbucks is having a hard time finding those graduates... My local Starbucks closes early because they can't find enough staff. The problem here is that we have 360,000 boomers retiring every month, and not enough Millennials to replace them.

You work on the assumption that the banks really care if you can pay it back or not. They don't. Why should they? Only 8% of Student loans default.

You had your hero Betsy DeVos running corrupt diploma mills and grabbing the government cheese with both hands.



So did America up until the 1970's. Frankly, the worst thing we did was end national service because the rich were abusing it.

No one needs to get a college degree to work at freaking Starbucks, Joe.

Mentally disabled individuals could be taught to pour coffee. Its a simple enough task that Starbucks could bring refugees from Ukraine and Congo who know no English and be able to perform the task perfectly- if they were to have to because of a strike.

 

[JoeB131]

Yep.....if banks had to be on the hook for getting a return on the "Gender Hate America Studies," degrees.....they wouldn't pay for them......but when the government will guarantee the loan, the university is free to indulge any stupid, left wing degree........the bank gets 4 years of cash because the "Gender Hate America Studies" student will make it through 4 years......since learning 50 genders is fairly easy when it is graded on a curve.....

Make the banks responsible for getting a return on the degree, and they will stop paying for stupidity....

Really? Were the banks responsible when they gave loans for McMansions to house-flippers? When they gave out credit cards to teenagers? When they gave out loans for Betsy DeVos' diploma mills?

 

[Polishprince]

Really? Were the banks responsible when they gave loans for McMansions to house-flippers? When they gave out credit cards to teenagers? When they gave out loans for Betsy DeVos' diploma mills?

Just because a bank may have made other bad loans doesn't entitle other deadbeats to the same kids glove treatment from the bank.

 

[JoeB131]

Just because a bank may have made other bad loans doesn't entitle other deadbeats to the same kids glove treatment from the bank.

No, it doesn't.

But the concept that if we just deregulated the banks, and let they apply some good ol' American Capitalism is just silly. They'll engage in the same bad behavior they always do... and then expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

Turn State universities back into what they were intended to be: a way for anyone to go to college. Now they are sports franchises that try to lure recruits and students with elaborate campuses and dorms. $22K for one year at IU. That's IN-STATE tuition (includes dorm).

Check the highest paid State employee of all 50 States. It will be a college football coach. Every time.

A kid who plays a good game of volleyball can get a full ride to a university (oh thank goodness, we wouldn't want our volleyball team to be 3-20 instead of 8-15), while a kid with straight As who wants to get a scientific education has to borrow and beg for money from private sources.

Like I said: sports franchises that have campuses.

If you make $50K, your child will get no federal grants and can borrow a maximum of $2500 in federal student loans.

Because what person making $50K doesn't have $20K a year lying around, right?

So the new plague is parent borrowing. And those loans are at like 11-16%

 

[2aguy]

Really? Were the banks responsible when they gave loans for McMansions to house-flippers? When they gave out credit cards to teenagers? When they gave out loans for Betsy DeVos' diploma mills?

No...the government was behind that too......forcing banks to give loans to people they knew wouldn't be able to pay them back, so the banks unloaded that bad debt....clinton pushed that with his she giant Janet Reno using the Department of Justice to threaten banks...

 

[2aguy]

No, it doesn't.

But the concept that if we just deregulated the banks, and let they apply some good ol' American Capitalism is just silly. They'll engage in the same bad behavior they always do... and then expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab.

.that's what they are doing now.....the government gaurantees the student loans, the leftist universities jack up the prices.....that isn't capitalism, that is actually socialism.

 

[candycorn]

Interesting. That could cover the spectrum from advanced degrees to technical degrees to vocational degrees.

An employer can make those payments for the employee, theoretically, as a benefit and an incentive to do well and stay.

Well yes.

But moreover, what I'm interested in is a society to where whatever you want to do with your life, the governement removes the barriers. If you want to become a diesel mechanic, truck driver, welder, poet, playwright, gunsmith, archeologist, etc.... you can go to college. If you don't have 2 nickels in your pocket...you can go to college. If you, like some folks I know, get a scholarship to a private university, and go to it and become a huge success (or not)... you still have the 60 hours if you want to study Art Appreciation or auto body or theology. Having skilled workers is the goal. Having well rounded people is just cream on top of the coffee... Such a system would allow it.

 

[JoeB131]

Turn State universities back into what they were intended to be: a way for anyone to go to college. Now they are sports franchises that try to lure recruits and students with elaborate campuses and dorms. $22K for one year at IU. That's IN-STATE tuition (includes dorm).

Check the highest paid State employee of all 50 States. It will be a college football coach. Every time.

A kid who plays a good game of volleyball can get a full ride to a university (oh thank goodness, we wouldn't want our volleyball team to be 3-20 instead of 8-15), while a kid with straight As who wants to get a scientific education has to borrow and beg for money from private sources.

Like I said: sports franchises that have campuses.

If you make $50K, your child will get no federal grants and can borrow a maximum of $2500 in federal student loans.

Because what person making $50K doesn't have $20K a year lying around, right?

So the new plague is parent borrowing. And those loans are at like 11-16%

Very well said.

I attended the University of Illinois at Chicago- Formerly known as the University of Illinois Chicago Circle. In 1983, it combined with the nearby U of I Medical School. Circle was initially designed to be the affordable campus for inner city kids who could work part time jobs,

When I went to UIC, tuition was $1500 a year in 1985 dollars. (About $4000 in today's money). Today tuition for UIC is 17,000 a year for a base LAS course. It's more for engineering or health care.

Part of that is because UIC is pissing away a lot of money on an athletic program absolutely NO ONE cares about. Part of that is that the state has stop subsidizing it, and it depends entirely on tuition. And part of it is that the idiots who run it spend a lot of money on amenities to attract those high priced student dollars.

 

[JoeB131]

.that's what they are doing now.....the government gaurantees the student loans, the leftist universities jack up the prices.....that isn't capitalism, that is actually socialism.

Actually, if we had socialism, then the government would pick up all the costs... instead of the Corporate welfare we have now.

Again- only 8% of student loan holders default. That's actually kind of in line with the percentage of mortgage holders that default.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Well yes.

But moreover, what I'm interested in is a society to where whatever you want to do with your life, the governement removes the barriers. If you want to become a diesel mechanic, truck driver, welder, poet, playwright, gunsmith, archeologist, etc.... you can go to college. If you don't have 2 nickels in your pocket...you can go to college. If you, like some folks I know, get a scholarship to a private university, and go to it and become a huge success (or not)... you still have the 60 hours if you want to study Art Appreciation or auto body or theology. Having skilled workers is the goal. Having well rounded people is just cream on top of the coffee... Such a system would allow it.

Having a population that knows how to think and to learn is important. Most adults have no grasp of basic logic, which makes them gullible and stupid. They don't have the tools to recognize when someone fools them with a specious argument. Nor do they have the tools to understand when they have been shown to be wrong.

People carry a general belief that an employer would be better off hiring someone with 5 years experience and no degree over someone with a degree. Only being able to speak from my own experience and from experiences related to me at conferences in my industry, this is total nonsense. Those with degrees face new challenges with more composure and better problem solving and collaboration than those without. Training them on a new system is much, much faster, and they do better at anticipating possible problems in the future. And, when they do identify current or future problems, their correspondence comes complete with ideas for solutions. Those without degrees send emails that complain about the problem and come with an expectation that "Someone better fix this. It's not MY job. "

These are not meant to be universal rules, of course. But our company will hire someone with just about any degree and no experience over someone with a few years of experience. And it has paid dividends in spades.

The one problem we encounter is that we create very employable people who are on an upward trajectory in personal and career growth. And it can be hard to keep them, once their job starts to bore them.

 

[2aguy]

Well yes.

But moreover, what I'm interested in is a society to where whatever you want to do with your life, the governement removes the barriers. If you want to become a diesel mechanic, truck driver, welder, poet, playwright, gunsmith, archeologist, etc.... you can go to college. If you don't have 2 nickels in your pocket...you can go to college. If you, like some folks I know, get a scholarship to a private university, and go to it and become a huge success (or not)... you still have the 60 hours if you want to study Art Appreciation or auto body or theology. Having skilled workers is the goal. Having well rounded people is just cream on top of the coffee... Such a system would allow it.

The government can't remove the barriers......as the remove some, they put in place others, which are worse......once you give the government the power and control to "remove the barriers," they will begin to decide who can go to what schools, take which jobs.....

If you want people to advance? Get the government out of it....we are suffering now because of government interference in higher education......they are backing loans, allowing idiots to get degrees in "Gender Hate America" studies, which will never earn a living in the real world.....the government creates that insentive....

One of the good plans.........give a percent of your salary to the school after you graduate until you pay your debt....that ensures the university has a stake in your success....not simply getting you to stay there for 4 years racking up debt you can't pay back...

 

[2aguy]

Actually, if we had socialism, then the government would pick up all the costs... instead of the Corporate welfare we have now.

Again- only 8% of student loan holders default. That's actually kind of in line with the percentage of mortgage holders that default.

If the democrats pay off student debt, then they will all have defaulted......

 

[Vastator]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

I wonder if we could revert back to merit based advancement, and cut the "sweetheart deal" of unforgivable student loan debt, foisting the losses back on to the institutions who enrolled people who should never have been there in the first place.

I wonder...

 

[candycorn]

The government can't remove the barriers......as the remove some, they put in place others, which are worse......once you give the government the power and control to "remove the barriers," they will begin to decide who can go to what schools, take which jobs.....

Sure it can. You're just a member of the "party of no" and any change is seen, by you, as a threat.

If you want people to advance? Get the government out of it....we are suffering now because of government interference in higher education......they are backing loans, allowing idiots to get degrees in "Gender Hate America" studies, which will never earn a living in the real world.....the government creates that insentive....

Someone offers "gender hate America" degree?

One of the good plans.........give a percent of your salary to the school after you graduate until you pay your debt....that ensures the university has a stake in your success....not simply getting you to stay there for 4 years racking up debt you can't pay back...

Not sure how that incentivizes colleges. In the current model which isn't working optimally, they already have your money when you graduate.

 

[2aguy]

I wonder if we could revert back to merit based advancement, and cut the "sweetheart deal" of unforgivable student loan debt, foisting the losses back on to the institutions who enrolled people who should never have been there in the first place.

I wonder...

They do this because there is no consequence to loaning people money for degrees that will never generate income.......thanks to government interference ....

 

[citygator]

What terrible assessments on this thread.

• Instate public tuition is a great deal
• Out of state public tuition is a mediocre deal
• Private tuition is steep but elite schools pay off
• For profit colleges are a rip off
• Low pay majors are fine as long as your parents are well off and paying, or you get a scholarship, or you go in state
• American colleges are the best in the world
• You will make $1M more on average in college than someone who doesn’t go to college
• There are paths other than college for those who do not have the skills or interest for college
• Dumbasses think there is liberal brainwashing going on. Probably non college attendees projecting insecurity.
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Flash]

Actually, if we had socialism, then the government would pick up all the costs... instead of the Corporate welfare we have now.

Again- only 8% of student loan holders default. That's actually kind of in line with the percentage of mortgage holders that default.

You are confused.

There is a difference between being in default and having a loan that is a tremendous burden to pay back.

I know two people in their 40s that still have student loans but are technically not in default. The bar for being considered in default for student loans is actually pretty damn low.

If you can't be productive enough after getting your degree to pay off whatever debt you acquired getting the degree then why in the hell should the American taxpayer have to pay off your worthless degree?

We are only talking about it because this shitass President Potatohead is failing big time and he is trying to get some Democrat support for the mid terms. Buying votes with welfare. It is despicable.

I'll pay my bills and you pay yours and the filthy Libtards can take their "free shit" and cram it up their ass.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

you can't be productive enough after getting your degree to pay off whatever debt you acquired getting the degree then why in the hell should the American taxpayer have to pay off your worthless degree

Because they will personally benefit from the economic boon, and they will set up a better world for their children.

Remember, you are chiefly talking about rich people. They will still be rich. Very little of your tax money will pay off anyone's student loans, because you pay relatively very little in taxes.

 

[Flash]

Both my wife and I graduated college and got advanced degrees without having to acquire debt.

Both of my sons graduated college without debt. One of them earned an advance degree with still no debt.

Between the parents and us grandparents our grandchildren will have plenty of money to go to college without going in debt.

My family has taken care of its own. Why in the hell should we be forced to anti up money to pay for somebody else who wasn't productive enough to provide for their own?