Liberal arguments for supporting gun ownership rights

[Dr Grump]

before i go into this any further Di,let me ask you.....was it a RIGHT to have guns at the house,in your constitution,or was it just ALLOWED,and your PM and co. decided it was time to restrict them,and changed the law.....

Irrelevent. It was not in the constitution and it was just 'allowed'. But here's a heads up for you Harry: If some nutjob decides to take over your country with a coup, backed fully by the military, your constitution means squat. Same down here. You can fight the govt. with your peashooters (as can an Aussie, who has the right to own a firearm), but you'll probably lose.

You Yanks get all het up about what is written down, when all is said and done though, having listened to Yanks and Aussies, Australia seems more free than the US...

 

[Missourian]

thanks For Proving My Point.

Local Background Checks Lowered The Rate From 4.28 To 2.81 Per 100,000. Of Course If You Look At The State By State Rates, The Effects Are Even More Dramatic. Some Of The Pro Gun States Are Almost Four Time Higher Than The More Restrictive States. I Notice That You Continue To Ignore That....

national Firearm Injury And Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

To the contrary, you have proved mine:

--4.28
- 2.81
--------
==1.47​

The basis of your contention is a 3rd year med students finding of a 1.47 in 100,000 difference, well within the margin of error of any study, that would cost millions of dollars.

 

[Chris]

Take a closer look. Look at cities, and counties. Look at places with specific concealed carry allowed laws and look at their rates of violent crimes.

Nice try.

Concealed weapons laws have very little to do with violent crime. Violent crime is a function of societal factors such as urban poverty and gangs.

Washington D.C. outlawed handguns, and their murder rate is now half what it was in the 1990's.

 

[Chris]

To the contrary, you have proved mine:

--4.28
- 2.81
--------
==1.47​

The basis of your contention is a 3rd year med students finding of a 1.47 in 100,000 difference, well within the margin of error of any study, that would cost millions of dollars.

Thanks for proving my point.

The local background checks drop the rate by a third.

This shows up very well in the state statistics which you won't talk about because you know they prove my point.

Thanks for playing though.....

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

 

[Missourian]

Rank
State
Total Number of Firearm Deaths 2004
Crude Firearm Death Rate 2004

Again with Firearm deaths and not homicides. Why? Because that would be a whole different story.

TEN WORST LARGE CITIES FOR MURDER, 2002
CITY PER 100,000


(1) Washington, DC 45.8======Firearms Banned
(2) Detroit 42.0=============Heavily restricted
(3) Baltimore 38.3===========Heavily restricted
(4) Memphis 24.7============Unrestricted
(5) Chicago 22.2============Nearly Banned
(6) Philadelphia 19.0=========Heavily restricted
(7) Columbus 18.1=========Somewhat restricted
(8) Milwaukee 18.0==========Heavily restricted
(9) Los Angeles 17.5=========Heavily restricted
(10) Dallas 15.8============Nearly unrestricted

 

[Missourian]

Thanks for proving my point.

The local background checks drop the rate by a third.

This shows up very well in the state statistics which you won't talk about because you know they prove my point.

Thanks for playing though.....

National Firearm Injury and Death Statistics | Washington Ceasefire

So your point is that millions of dollars should be spent:

1) on the basis of a 3rd year med students.

2) whose finding show a difference of 1.47 out of 100,000

I'll happily let that point stand on it's own lack of merit.




And before we return to it for the upteenth time...there is no correlation between suicide and gun ownership.

Suicide rates are significantly higher in countries with much tighter gun ownership restrictions like Germany and France, even today.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Irrelevent. It was not in the constitution and it was just 'allowed'. But here's a heads up for you Harry: If some nutjob decides to take over your country with a coup, backed fully by the military, your constitution means squat. Same down here. You can fight the govt. with your peashooters (as can an Aussie, who has the right to own a firearm), but you'll probably lose.

You Yanks get all het up about what is written down, when all is said and done though, having listened to Yanks and Aussies, Australia seems more free than the US...

and of course 100 million people with guns,many militarily trained wont make a nice little resistance,right....and of course EVERY cop and soldier will just follow that "nut case" am i right?.....and heres a heads up for you Grump,lay down and follow the nutcase or fight the nut case, no one is talking about a coup Sherlock......if they take one constitutional right away from ya grumpo.....which one is next?....and after that which one?.....have the passive "i dont see whats wrong with that"attitude Grump,that wont fly over here.....

 

[Chris]

So your point is that millions of dollars should be spent:

1) on the basis of a 3rd year med students.

2) whose finding show a difference of 1.47 out of 100,000

I'll happily let that point stand on it's own lack of merit.




And before we return to it for the upteenth time...there is no correlation between suicide and gun ownership.

Suicide rates are significantly higher in countries with much tighter gun ownership restrictions like Germany and France, even today.

Sorry you have continued to deny the truth. Local background checks lower the rate of murder and suicide. No question. Why? Because guns make killing easier.

Suicide and murder are functions of societal factors. Easy access to handguns just make suicide and murder easier, but this is only one of many factors influencing the rate.

 

[Chris]

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States.[23]

Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence

 

[Missourian]

Sorry you have continued to deny the truth. Local background checks lower the rate of murder and suicide. No question. Why? Because guns make killing easier.

Suicide and murder are functions of societal factors. Easy access to handguns just make suicide and murder easier, but this is only one of many factors influencing the rate.

Ok, we are finally getting somewhere. A agree with the bold statement.

Why would easy access to handguns make suicide any easier than poison or an overdose, or hanging or jumping of a bridge?

 

[Chris]

Ok, we are finally getting somewhere. A agree with the bold statement.

Why would easy access to handguns make suicide any easier than poison or an overdose, or hanging or jumping of a bridge?

In general, guns don’t induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there’s a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."

Follow-up interviews with people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge reveal that few of them tried suicide again. One survivor volunteered this epiphany after jumping: "I realized that all the problems I had in life were solvable—except one: I’m in midair." In the United States, suicide rates are high in states with an abundance of guns—southern and western mountain states, for example—and lower in places like New Jersey, New England, or Hawaii, where guns are relatively scarce. Nine case-control studies have shown that guns in the house are a risk factor for suicide. Firearms turn the agonizing into the irreversible.

Death by the Barrel | Harvard Magazine

 

[Missourian]

In general, guns don’t induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there’s a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."

Follow-up interviews with people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge reveal that few of them tried suicide again. One survivor volunteered this epiphany after jumping: "I realized that all the problems I had in life were solvable—except one: I’m in midair." In the United States, suicide rates are high in states with an abundance of guns—southern and western mountain states, for example—and lower in places like New Jersey, New England, or Hawaii, where guns are relatively scarce. Nine case-control studies have shown that guns in the house are a risk factor for suicide. Firearms turn the agonizing into the irreversible.

Death by the Barrel | Harvard Magazine

All hyperbole and no facts. I've shone you over and over again that suicide is significantly higher in countries with strict gun control.

Not attempted suicides...suicides.

Facts, not hyperbole.

How can you justify your position with the fact that suicides are higher in countries with strict gun control laws?

 

[Missourian]

In general, guns don’t induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there’s a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent.

Death by the Barrel | Harvard Magazine

Driving your car into a truck head on is 90% lethal, jumping of a roof is 90% leathal, steping in front of a train is 90% lethal, stabbing yourself in the heart is 100% lethal.

I suppose we could just bubble wrap everything or everyone to make sure nothing is 90% leathal.
That wouldn't help much with electrocution though, 95% lethal. But we could require local backround checks for the purchase of small appliances...or bathtubs.

Not much help against hanging (80% lethal) or carbon monoxide poisoning (95% lethal) either...but requiring local backround checks to purchase rope, cable, electrical wire, piano wire, cars, motocycles, atvs, lawnmowers, garden tillers, weed eaters, mopeds, barbeque grills, charcoal brickettes or lighter fluid will take care of that as well.

 

[Chris]

All hyperbole and no facts. I've shone you over and over again that suicide is significantly higher in countries with strict gun control.

Not attempted suicides...suicides.

Facts, not hyperbole.

How can you justify your position with the fact that suicides are higher in countries with strict gun control laws?

Hyperbole is your middle name.

Suicide rates are highest in states with the loosest gun control laws and lowest in Washington D.C. where until recently handguns were outlawed!

Here are the facts....

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

 

[Diuretic]

before i go into this any further Di,let me ask you.....was it a RIGHT to have guns at the house,in your constitution,or was it just ALLOWED,and your PM and co. decided it was time to restrict them,and changed the law.....

No Harry, there is no statutory or constitutional right for anyone in my state to own/use/possess a firearm. In fact our Supreme Court specifically stated in a case (it was an appeal against an administrative action by the Registrar of Firearms) that owning etc a firearm is a privilege and not a right and that the public interest is paramount. I know - and I'm not being a smartarse here - to an American that is an absolutely alien notion. I can understand the dismay that an American might feel but the reality is that given the legal history and cultural antecedents here (we inherited Engish law - I can explain a bit about that but I'll wait until asked, don't want to be a bore) that notion is accepted. There is no equivalent to the 2nd Amendment in my state.

As I mentioned before, Howard bullied the states into accepting his populist bullshit. I was then and I am now totally disgusted by his actions. Fact is that it has had no effect on anything. Our homicide rate by firearm was low (still low). The vast majority of our firearms owners were and are responsible and law-abiding. I've been on a few private ranges and I can tell you the professionalism of members using those ranges is excellent. And tolerance of anyone buggerising around is absolute, they won't accept any deviation from safe and responsible behaviour and total compliance with the rangemaster's instructions. Those were the people who were penalised by Howard's populist bullshit, not crooks, crooks didn't give a shit.

 

[Chris]

Ouch! Missourian is busted!

More handguns, more suicides!

Suicides per 100,000 residents**

1. District of Columbia: 5.3

2. New York: 6

3. Massachusetts: 6.4

4. New Jersey: 6.8

5. Rhode Island: 7.5

6. Illinois: 8

7. Connecticut: 8.2

8. Maryland: 8.9

9. Hawaii: 8.9

10. Nebraska: 9.5

11. California: 9.6

12. New Hampshire: 9.8

13. Minnesota: 10.1

14. Texas: 10.6

15. Michigan: 10.8

16. Virginia: 10.9

17. Delaware: 11.0

18. Pennsylvania: 11.1

19. Georgia: 11.1

20. North Dakota: 11.2

21. Indiana: 11.3

22. Ohio: 11.3

23. South Carolina: 11.3

24. Iowa: 11.5

25. Alabama: 11.8

26. Wisconsin: 11.9

27. North Carolina: 11.9

28. Louisiana (pre-Katrina): 12.1

29. Mississippi: 12.2

30. Missouri: 12.4

31. Maine: 12.4

32. Arkansas: 13

33. Florida: 13

34. Kentucky: 13.2

35. Tennessee: 13.2

36. Washington: 13.2

37. Kansas: 13.5

38. Vermont: 14.2

39. Oklahoma: 14.4

40. South Dakota: 14.9

41. Oregon: 14.9

42. West Virginia: 15.4

43. Arizona: 15.6

44. Colorado: 17.1

45. Utah: 17.1

46. Idaho: 17.5

47. Wyoming: 17.6

48. Montana: 18.7

49. New Mexico: 18.8

50. Nevada: 19

51. Alaska: 23.1

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

 

[Missourian]

Hyperbole is your middle name.

Suicide rates are highest in states with the loosest gun control laws and lowest in Washington D.C. where until recently handguns were outlawed!

Here are the facts....

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

Ouch! Missourian is busted!

More handguns, more suicides!

Suicides per 100,000 residents**

1. District of Columbia: 5.3

2. New York: 6

3. Massachusetts: 6.4

4. New Jersey: 6.8

5. Rhode Island: 7.5

6. Illinois: 8

7. Connecticut: 8.2

8. Maryland: 8.9

9. Hawaii: 8.9

10. Nebraska: 9.5

11. California: 9.6

12. New Hampshire: 9.8

13. Minnesota: 10.1

14. Texas: 10.6

15. Michigan: 10.8

16. Virginia: 10.9

17. Delaware: 11.0

18. Pennsylvania: 11.1

19. Georgia: 11.1

20. North Dakota: 11.2

21. Indiana: 11.3

22. Ohio: 11.3

23. South Carolina: 11.3

24. Iowa: 11.5

25. Alabama: 11.8

26. Wisconsin: 11.9

27. North Carolina: 11.9

28. Louisiana (pre-Katrina): 12.1

29. Mississippi: 12.2

30. Missouri: 12.4

31. Maine: 12.4

32. Arkansas: 13

33. Florida: 13

34. Kentucky: 13.2

35. Tennessee: 13.2

36. Washington: 13.2

37. Kansas: 13.5

38. Vermont: 14.2

39. Oklahoma: 14.4

40. South Dakota: 14.9

41. Oregon: 14.9

42. West Virginia: 15.4

43. Arizona: 15.6

44. Colorado: 17.1

45. Utah: 17.1

46. Idaho: 17.5

47. Wyoming: 17.6

48. Montana: 18.7

49. New Mexico: 18.8

50. Nevada: 19

51. Alaska: 23.1

Depression and suicide rates state by state - USATODAY.com

Like I said, you should do you own research.

Here is the results of the study those statistics were taken from.



Table 4.2 describes state characteristics associated with state age-adjusted suicide rates. The following factors were significantly associated with suicide rates:

&#56256;&#56510; Mental health resources &#8212; The more mental health professionals in the state(specifically, the higher the number of psychiatrists, psychologists, or social workers per capita), the lower the suicide rate (p < 0.001). Figure 4.1 describes graphically the association between the psychiatrists per capita and the suicide rate. The line slopes downward indicating a negative relationship.

&#56256;&#56510; Barriers to treatment &#8212; The analyses indicate that the greater the percentage of the population reporting that they could not obtain healthcare because of costs, the higher the suicide rate (p = 0.006). The portion of the population reporting unmet mental healthcare need was positively associated with suicide rates but the association did not quite reach conventional levels of statistical significance (p = 0.085). Figure 4.2 describes graphically the association between the percentage of the population that could not obtain healthcare because of costs and the suicide rate.

&#56256;&#56510; Mental health utilization &#8212; Holding the baseline level of depression in the state constant, the higher the number of antidepressant prescriptions per capita , the lower the state&#8217;s age-adjusted suicide rate (p = 0.043). In addition, there was a trend showing that the higher the percentage of the population receiving mental health treatment, the lower the suicide rate (p = 0.272). Mental health treatment was defined as having received
inpatient care or outpatient care or having used prescription medication for problems with &#8220;emotions, nerves, or mental health.&#8221; It should also be noted that the depression index was statistically significantly correlated with state suicide rates, indicating that states with a greater prevalence of depression tended to have higher suicide rates.

&#56256;&#56510; Socioeconomic characteristics&#8212;The more educated the population, the lower the suicide rate (p < 0.001). The greater the percentage of the population with health insurance, the lower the suicide rate (p=0.002). Median household income was negatively associated with suicide rates but the association did not quite reach conventional levels of statistical significance (p = 0.068).

These findings are consistent with those of Tondo and colleagues (2006). They compared age adjusted suicide rates for men and women with demographic, socioeconomic, and other indices of access to healthcare, by state (N = 51, including the District of Columbia). They found positive bivariate associations with state suicide rates (all p < or = .05) ranked as follows: male sex, Native American ethnicity, and higher proportion of uninsured residents. Negative bivariate associations (all p < or = .02) were ranked as follows: higher population density, higher annual household income, higher population density of psychiatrists, higher population density of physicians, higher federal aid for mental health, and higher proportion of African Americans.

The finding that higher rates of antidepressant prescribing is associated with lower rates of suicide has also been found in other studies (Mann et al., 2005, Hall et al., 2006).

http://www.nmha.org/files/Ranking_Americas_Mental_Health.pdf page 21 and 22.


What do you know...not one word about Firearm Ownership.

The study concluded that, and I'm paraphrasing here, richer more indutrialized and urbanized states that had a significantly higher percentage of psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers and higher rates of health insurance had better resources for dealing with depression than poorer rural states.



And with that coup de grâce, I bid you ado. I appreciate the practice. Better luck next time.

 

[Chris]

Like I said, you should do you own research.

Here is the results of the study those statistics were taken from.



Table 4.2 describes state characteristics associated with state age-adjusted suicide rates. The following factors were significantly associated with suicide rates:

&#56256;&#56510; Mental health resources — The more mental health professionals in the state(specifically, the higher the number of psychiatrists, psychologists, or social workers per capita), the lower the suicide rate (p < 0.001). Figure 4.1 describes graphically the association between the psychiatrists per capita and the suicide rate. The line slopes downward indicating a negative relationship.

&#56256;&#56510; Barriers to treatment — The analyses indicate that the greater the percentage of the population reporting that they could not obtain healthcare because of costs, the higher the suicide rate (p = 0.006). The portion of the population reporting unmet mental healthcare need was positively associated with suicide rates but the association did not quite reach conventional levels of statistical significance (p = 0.085). Figure 4.2 describes graphically the association between the percentage of the population that could not obtain healthcare because of costs and the suicide rate.

&#56256;&#56510; Mental health utilization — Holding the baseline level of depression in the state constant, the higher the number of antidepressant prescriptions per capita , the lower the state’s age-adjusted suicide rate (p = 0.043). In addition, there was a trend showing that the higher the percentage of the population receiving mental health treatment, the lower the suicide rate (p = 0.272). Mental health treatment was defined as having received
inpatient care or outpatient care or having used prescription medication for problems with “emotions, nerves, or mental health.” It should also be noted that the depression index was statistically significantly correlated with state suicide rates, indicating that states with a greater prevalence of depression tended to have higher suicide rates.

&#56256;&#56510; Socioeconomic characteristics—The more educated the population, the lower the suicide rate (p < 0.001). The greater the percentage of the population with health insurance, the lower the suicide rate (p=0.002). Median household income was negatively associated with suicide rates but the association did not quite reach conventional levels of statistical significance (p = 0.068).

These findings are consistent with those of Tondo and colleagues (2006). They compared age adjusted suicide rates for men and women with demographic, socioeconomic, and other indices of access to healthcare, by state (N = 51, including the District of Columbia). They found positive bivariate associations with state suicide rates (all p < or = .05) ranked as follows: male sex, Native American ethnicity, and higher proportion of uninsured residents. Negative bivariate associations (all p < or = .02) were ranked as follows: higher population density, higher annual household income, higher population density of psychiatrists, higher population density of physicians, higher federal aid for mental health, and higher proportion of African Americans.

The finding that higher rates of antidepressant prescribing is associated with lower rates of suicide has also been found in other studies (Mann et al., 2005, Hall et al., 2006).

http://www.nmha.org/files/Ranking_Americas_Mental_Health.pdf page 21 and 22.


What do you know...not one word about Firearm Ownership.

The study concluded that, and I'm paraphrasing here, richer more indutrialized and urbanized states that had a significantly higher percentage of psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers and higher rates of health insurance had better resources for dealing with depression than poorer rural states.



And with that coup de grâce, I bid you ado. I appreciate the practice. Better luck next time.

I knew you didn't have the balls to admit you were wrong.

 

[Missourian]

I knew you didn't have the balls to admit you were wrong.

​

 

[Chris]

​

Thanks for you help.

Now I have stats showing that the pro gun states have higher suicide, homicide, and violent crime rates.

Now there is no question that loose gun laws contribute to all these problems.