Man Killed By His Own Dogs -- How Could This Happen?

[sangha]

Hey Manifold, here's all y ou need to know about Sangha's stupidity.

When I posted a link to an article in this thread to support my claim about Pitt Bull's attacking the moron laughed about me posting it and called the link an anecdote. Then he turned right around and posted a link to an article about a bad cop to support his belief that all cops are bad in another thread

He's a stupid piece of shit who has no ability to debate........

And the cowardly conjob, who won't dare take me on face to face, has to once again lie about what I've said, so I'll offer him the same challenge (which he will respond by running away like manifold did)

Find and quote the post where I all cops are bad. If you find it, I will leave USMB. If you don't, you leave USMB

Put up or shut up

Or prove what a coward you are

No because you did leave open the possiblity that perhaps 5% of cops were good cops.

You're so dishonest, you can't admit you lied but you can't defend yourself either

What a coward you are. You can't even admit that I never said it.

 

[ConHog]

And the cowardly conjob, who won't dare take me on face to face, has to once again lie about what I've said, so I'll offer him the same challenge (which he will respond by running away like manifold did)

Find and quote the post where I all cops are bad. If you find it, I will leave USMB. If you don't, you leave USMB

Put up or shut up

Or prove what a coward you are

No because you did leave open the possiblity that perhaps 5% of cops were good cops.

You're so dishonest, you can't admit you lied but you can't defend yourself either

What a coward you are. You can't even admit that I never said it.

hyperbole =/= lie. apparently everyone but you understands that.

 

[William Joyce]

Whites are always doing this. They think they need to "rescue" FUCKING DOGS. What they need to rescue is their OWN FUCKING RACE.

 

[Claudette]

There's no evidence that the guy abused the dogs, neglected, them, etc. How could a troupe of domesticated dogs do this?

Lorain County man mauled to death by stray dogs family had rescued | cleveland.com

Because they are dogs?! Domesticated dogs, of every kind, can become a pack. My uncle raised cattle in the mid-west, about 50 miles south of a very large city, where people would dump their dogs in the countryside. The dogs would form packs and would kill the cattle, so at least once a year we would have to hunt them. You name it, I saw every kind breed of dog in those packs. Believe it or not, the worst were the full sized poodles. I was shocked until I found out later that they are actually hunting animals in Europe. Dogs are smart and have very human-like behaviour but they are animals, nonetheless.

I had a river property in Echo, Oregon. It's along the Umatilla River. People who should have known better would let their dogs run, and those dogs were a terror. There was a shepherd mix, a little terrier, a black dog and a couple more - I saw different dogs at different times. We had horses and a couple of cows - and a sheep, come to think of it. Those dogs surrounded my mom once and after that it was war as far as I was concerned.

I came upon them in a circle around our mama cow and her calf; the cows were pushed back against the fence and the dogs were in a semi-circle around her, taking turns at darting in and biting at the calf. They heard my 30-30 click when I cocked it and first the black dog then the rest were gone, that fast.

I shot at one out behind our house in a couple acre open pasture; it was an aussie chasing all of my horses, including a couple of colts, in a big circle.

The neighbors who owned the big dogs said their dogs would never hurt anyone or anything, they just liked to play. The shepherd mix killed a bunch of sheep about 100 yards from my house and the other one bit a little girl in the face as she walked by their house on the way home from school. Both dogs were destroyed.

Dogs will chase. Its called prey drive. Anything that runs is a prey item for a dog.

Farmers in NH won't tolerate a dog in the same field as their sheep or cows. I once watched a farmer shoot a dog that was in his pasture with his sheep. Don't know if the dog was chasing the sheep but he was killed because he was in the pasture with em.

Spoke with Fish and Game in NH many times about dogs chasing deer. Many dogs shot in that STate for chasing deer. According the F&G you can always tell a kill by the Eastern Coyote and one by domestic dogs. The deer the Coyote kills is eaten. The deer killed by domestic dogs just has the ass chewed off. If it runs a dog will chase it. Prey drive.

When I lived in NC I took herding lessons with my Border collie. Herding is prey drive without the kill at the end. One Christmas I got a call from the instructor cancelling classes for that Saturday. A couple of Rotties had gotten in with her sheep and killed about 10 of them. Animal control picked up the dogs, who were in terrible shape. These dogs were very skinny and obviouslty neglected by the owners. They contacted the owner who tried to tell everyone that his dogs would never do anything like that. Well. Inda funny that statement since the dogs were in the pasture with all the dead sheep.

Dogs will chase livestock. Some will try to kill them as well. Any dog. Doesn't matter what breed it is. Its just a natural thing for a dog to do.

 

[Coyote]

Do animal shelters not screen dogs for aggression? The tv news said the guy got his dogs from the shelter -- why would they allow feral dogs to be adopted?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

They likely aren't feral dogs and yes, shelters increasingly screen for aggression but a lot of times, problems don't show up right away or only in certain situations.

Yes, like when they are in a pack.
Dogs, alld dogs, are subject to pack mentality. The most gentle dog will kill if it is not the alpha in a group of dogs, and that group is out of control. And once a dog learns to hunt in a pack it doesn't stop.

That's why I get so infuriated with morons who let their dogs run, saying they're nice family dogs. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Nice family dogs are dangerous when they're joined up by a couple of other nice family dogs who are used to running and chasing things.

I so agree - pack behavior is poorly understood by most people - in fact, it's not to different from mob behavior in humans.

Dogs are social predators. They've evolved/ been bred for thousands of years to accept humans as part of their "packs" - but even with an incomplete toolbox of instincts, they are still predators - even the family Golden.

 

[manifold]

Yup.

As much as I feel bad for this guy, he clearly didn't know shit about the dogs he was trying to help.

I've volunteered with rescue operations in the past and rule number one is you never let the dogs run together. Ever.

 

[Coyote]

I once had a dog who was the offspring of an AKC registered champion Brittany Spaniel and an AKC registered Black Labrador retriever who looked like a pit bull cross. People sometimes asked if he was because of his slanted eyes and wide jaw. He would attack any male dog that came near him and any children too. Had any of the owners or parents of dogs or children he attacked made complaints to the police, he would undoubtedly be labeled by them a pit pull mix. Fortunately with time and training he stopped being aggressive and even came to like kids.

Another very dangerous dog I took care of was a Rhodesian Ridgeback who, were it not for the cowlick down his backbone could easily have been confused with a pit bull. Unfortunately he had to be put euthanized because no one would adopt him.

People think they know what a pit bull is, but really, the term "pit bull" has come to mean a canine sort of Bogeyman. Pit bull dogs are a lightening rod for many people's irrational fears and class hatred.

Pits are a very misunderstood breed.

I once spoke with a guy involved in dog fighting.

He told me that way back when fighting was not against the law and fights were held all the time if a dog showed agression towards a human that dog automatically put down by the owner. Didn't matter how good a fighter this dog was, agression towards humans was not tolerated. He said that made it easier to handle the dogs during a fight. Go figure.

Did I believe him?? He had no reason to lie about it.

Funny how things change. You now have pitbulls going after people all the time. May other breeds as well.

I don't own a pit but have friends that do. They love their dogs and wouldn 't have any other breed.

I have heard that also, and most of the pits I've met have been awesome dogs to handle. I think the change occurred though, when the purpose for having a pit changed - people want a tough aggressive dog in association with gangs/drugs/etc and rather than choosing a breed that already had that reputation, they started selecting for it in Pits and mixes.

 

[sangha]

I once had a dog who was the offspring of an AKC registered champion Brittany Spaniel and an AKC registered Black Labrador retriever who looked like a pit bull cross. People sometimes asked if he was because of his slanted eyes and wide jaw. He would attack any male dog that came near him and any children too. Had any of the owners or parents of dogs or children he attacked made complaints to the police, he would undoubtedly be labeled by them a pit pull mix. Fortunately with time and training he stopped being aggressive and even came to like kids.

Another very dangerous dog I took care of was a Rhodesian Ridgeback who, were it not for the cowlick down his backbone could easily have been confused with a pit bull. Unfortunately he had to be put euthanized because no one would adopt him.

People think they know what a pit bull is, but really, the term "pit bull" has come to mean a canine sort of Bogeyman. Pit bull dogs are a lightening rod for many people's irrational fears and class hatred.

Pits are a very misunderstood breed.

I once spoke with a guy involved in dog fighting.

He told me that way back when fighting was not against the law and fights were held all the time if a dog showed agression towards a human that dog automatically put down by the owner. Didn't matter how good a fighter this dog was, agression towards humans was not tolerated. He said that made it easier to handle the dogs during a fight. Go figure.

Did I believe him?? He had no reason to lie about it.

Funny how things change. You now have pitbulls going after people all the time. May other breeds as well.

I don't own a pit but have friends that do. They love their dogs and wouldn 't have any other breed.

I have heard that also, and most of the pits I've met have been awesome dogs to handle. I think the change occurred though, when the purpose for having a pit changed - people want a tough aggressive dog in association with gangs/drugs/etc and rather than choosing a breed that already had that reputation, they started selecting for it in Pits and mixes.

I read once that the large majority of pit bull attacks occurred under two conditions

1) More than one dog involved
2) the dogs were running loose

That's why those who fear leaving an older child with a PB are needlessly and ignorantly fearful.

 

[Coyote]

Pictures, Coyote. I ain't never heard of this breed and I wanna see, please?

They're Australian Shepherds - here's a couple of them

Do animal shelters not screen dogs for aggression? The tv news said the guy got his dogs from the shelter -- why would they allow feral dogs to be adopted?

They likely aren't feral dogs and yes, shelters increasingly screen for aggression but a lot of times, problems don't show up right away or only in certain situations.

Smartest dogs in the world^ !!. Didn't an Australian shepherd win the Westminister dog show last year? They aren't popular among the elite because the aren't "cute," but give me smart over photogenic any day.

The cat that I recently had to put down had either been abused or was feral because when he was dumped at the shelter, he had no hair which is a clear indication of extreme stress. He was totally xenophobic, and I was the only human he would allow near him, and even that took several months before he could actually trust me.

I can't remember if one did or not, but unfortunately they are popular - mostly the blue merles with full trim. Mine are from working lines - not flashy, but good smart solid dogs. Of course I'm pretty biased

Usually, you can't do much with truly feral dogs and cats - and they remain timid and afraid of people sadly. Most shelters euthanize ferals and I can't blame them, they just aren't adoptable. Feral dogs, are less likely to be a problem than loose running pet dogs though, because they avoid people.

 

[Coyote]

Smartest dogs in the world^ !!. Didn't an Australian shepherd win the Westminister dog show last year? They aren't popular among the elite because the aren't "cute," but give me smart over photogenic any day.

The cat that I recently had to put down had either been abused or was feral because when he was dumped at the shelter, he had no hair which is a clear indication of extreme stress. He was totally xenophobic, and I was the only human he would allow near him, and even that took several months before he could actually trust me.

Oh, I think that dog is cute in its own way, but you're right. look at Irish Setters,, BEAUTIFUL dog, but dumber than a brick. I'd never have one.

True...but sometimes, dumb is good! Owning a smart dog takes a lot of work

 

[Coyote]

Let me address a few things.


You have zero credible evidence that shows that not spading and or neutering my adult Danes in unhealthy. In fact quite the opposite, there is credible evidence to suggest that having puppies is healthy for a female until age 5, mine is 4. At age 5 she will be spade. It will only make sense to also get the male neutered at that time as well.

The AKC, along with many other prominent and credible animal welfare agencies disagree. But since you have proven yourself oblivious to the facts, I'm sure you'll believe what some obscure website says, so long as it backs you up. Meanwhile, all the responsible people and orgs involved agree that backyard breeders like yourself are contributing to the problem and putting your pets health at risk



Just another clueless dogowner saying "But my dog would never do that!!"

Dogs dig. Dogs climb fences. Fences come down. Owners open gates when they leave. Accidents happen. Your insistence that it's impossible only proves your inability to deal with the facts.

There is a such thing as responsible breeding and is necessary if we want to keep this beautiful breed around, which I most certainly do.

And the ever dependable "I'm not doing it for *ME*!!! I'm selflessly doing it for the breed!!"

What a load!! GD's have been around a lot longer than you have, and they'll be around long after you're gone and it has nothing to do with you.

Don't think I'd go hog wild over anything the AKC has to say.

The AKC is all about the money babe.

They have no problem taking the millions of dollars they get from puppy mills. These folks breed genetically inferior and usually unhealthy overpriced pups. The AKC takes their money to register these dogs, no problem. They tell you they are responsible and work toward the betterment of all AKC breeds but the proof is in the putting.

As for the smartest dog on the planet?? Border Collie hands down. These dogs are so smart they scare you. There is nothing you couldn't teach a BC to do and I mean nothing.

I wouldn't necessarily agree - people often confuse intelligence with trainability. Some of the smartest dogs are problem solvers who work for themselves - and, having owned several - I'm in awe of their talents but not always so appreciative of the clean up afterwards!

 

[Coyote]

I've had a pitbull mix for 5 and a half years now, I'm proud to say. And he's NEVER had an aggression issue... well, with living things. Put a perfectly cooked steak in front of him and he'll be pretty aggressive with the steak. Then again, so would I.

Sorry bro, I've known some pretty decent pits to, but I would NEVER trust one around a child, especially unattended.

Not saying it's their fault, but they have had a lot of incidents over the years.


On another subject, where did Sangha take off to when I proved him wrong, once again, by proving that I do indeed know my genetics when it comes to Danes?

Genetics goes well beyond color - aside from the hearing and vision issues of breeding two merles (which is involved in Harliquin color genetics) Danes, being both a popular breed and giant breed, can inherit a number of problems - structural problems, cardiac problems, thyroid, a tendancy to cancer - according to this source, they are susceptable to 68 different inherited diseases...and temperment issues. Some of those problems are polygenetic or the mode of inheritence is unknown. So...Sangha may or may not be right....

 

[Claudette]

The AKC, along with many other prominent and credible animal welfare agencies disagree. But since you have proven yourself oblivious to the facts, I'm sure you'll believe what some obscure website says, so long as it backs you up. Meanwhile, all the responsible people and orgs involved agree that backyard breeders like yourself are contributing to the problem and putting your pets health at risk



Just another clueless dogowner saying "But my dog would never do that!!"

Dogs dig. Dogs climb fences. Fences come down. Owners open gates when they leave. Accidents happen. Your insistence that it's impossible only proves your inability to deal with the facts.



And the ever dependable "I'm not doing it for *ME*!!! I'm selflessly doing it for the breed!!"

What a load!! GD's have been around a lot longer than you have, and they'll be around long after you're gone and it has nothing to do with you.

Don't think I'd go hog wild over anything the AKC has to say.

The AKC is all about the money babe.

They have no problem taking the millions of dollars they get from puppy mills. These folks breed genetically inferior and usually unhealthy overpriced pups. The AKC takes their money to register these dogs, no problem. They tell you they are responsible and work toward the betterment of all AKC breeds but the proof is in the putting.

As for the smartest dog on the planet?? Border Collie hands down. These dogs are so smart they scare you. There is nothing you couldn't teach a BC to do and I mean nothing.

I wouldn't necessarily agree - people often confuse intelligence with trainability. Some of the smartest dogs are problem solvers who work for themselves - and, having owned several - I'm in awe of their talents but not always so appreciative of the clean up afterwards!

My BC is not your flashy show dog either. He's a stock dog. Loves to herd those sheep. I've shown my BC's in herding and obedience and their intelligence amazes me big time.

The BC is number one on the trainability list and deservedly so.

Problem solving?? Well my BC has figured me out pretty well. LOL

 

[sangha]

I've had a pitbull mix for 5 and a half years now, I'm proud to say. And he's NEVER had an aggression issue... well, with living things. Put a perfectly cooked steak in front of him and he'll be pretty aggressive with the steak. Then again, so would I.

Sorry bro, I've known some pretty decent pits to, but I would NEVER trust one around a child, especially unattended.

Not saying it's their fault, but they have had a lot of incidents over the years.


On another subject, where did Sangha take off to when I proved him wrong, once again, by proving that I do indeed know my genetics when it comes to Danes?

Genetics goes well beyond color - aside from the hearing and vision issues of breeding two merles (which is involved in Harliquin color genetics) Danes, being both a popular breed and giant breed, can inherit a number of problems - structural problems, cardiac problems, thyroid, a tendancy to cancer - according to this source, they are susceptable to 68 different inherited diseases...and temperment issues. Some of those problems are polygenetic or the mode of inheritence is unknown. So...Sangha may or may not be right....

I think you could use some explanation about what conjob is referring to

I claimed the conjob does not know enough about canine genetics to breed GD's responsibly. As proof that he does indeed know about GD genetics, conjob stated that he knew not to breed two merles.

As your post shows, there is more to GD genetics than simply knowing not to breed them in this manner. conjobs knowing this one little tidbit of info does not "prove" that he "knows GD genetics"

So I'll ask you, do think conjobs' knowing about this PROVESthat conjob knows enough about genetics to breed GD's responsibly?

ps - once again conjob is demonstrating his ignorance about leaving children with PB's when most PB attacks take place outside, with the dog not on a leash, and there are other dogs involved

Meanwhile, when GD's attack, it's usually in the home and often a child that is attacked.

 

[Coyote]

OK, since you requested, here's where I school you

I don't think you're doing any better a job at "schooling" Conhog than he is of "schooling
you.

The argument your making, whether you know it or not, is that pitbulls are genetically predisposed to be aggressive towards humans. This proves your are a nincompoop when it comes to genetics.

For one thing, there is no breed of dog called "Pit Bull". PB's are a non-specific grouping of breeds which people are afraid of. Depending on how fearful the PB-phobia is, the group could include from a handful to a couple of dozen different breeds.

PB's are genetically predisposed to being aggressive to NON-HUMAN animals. They are bred to fight other DOGS, not people. If you knew anything about canine genetics, you'd know that dogs can be genetically predisposed to several different forms of aggression and you'd know that dog-aggression is different from human-aggression in dogs.

The genetics of aggression are complicated and heavily influenced by environmental factors as well. There are inate "drives" a dog is born with that can lead to aggression (which kind of tends to be a catch-all term). One is prey drive and the other is dog-to-dog aggression. Prey drive doesn't necessarily differentiate between human and non-human animals. The problem with your example though is you are painting just as a broad a brush in favor of pitbulls as Conhog is against them. It seems in some breeding you are getting a risky combination of high prey drive, high arousal and dog-to-dog aggression and that can easily lead to aggression on humans who get in the way (and unlike professional dogmen, aren't going to be equipt to break up a fight). The focus of some pitbull breeding is changing because a certain segment of people want a tough (aggressive) dog and aggressive displays towards humans is tolerated (hell, looks cool on the end of a logging chain right?). This is where I have real issues with some Pitbull breeders because this is what is going to destroy the breed - it's currently desired image - not breed bans. I wish that Pit breeders would unify more over their breed and work towards a common breed goal - solid temperments, reduced dog-to-dog aggression (which really has no place in the modern world to select for) and education to the public.

Your remarks concerning PB's show you don't know anything about genetics. If you knew what you claimed you know, you'd know that PB's are known for being human-submissive. You'd know that PB's were bred to be human-submissive just as strongly as they were bred to be dog-aggressive. And you'd know the difference between dog-aggressive and human-aggressive

Not necessarily - traditional breeding practices for Pits no longer really apply.

And don't get me wrong - I love them, I've known too many good pits (attached to responsible owners) to say otherwise but you can't deny that there is a problem with temperment in some of these dogs.

 

[Coyote]

Sorry bro, I've known some pretty decent pits to, but I would NEVER trust one around a child, especially unattended.

Not saying it's their fault, but they have had a lot of incidents over the years.


On another subject, where did Sangha take off to when I proved him wrong, once again, by proving that I do indeed know my genetics when it comes to Danes?

Genetics goes well beyond color - aside from the hearing and vision issues of breeding two merles (which is involved in Harliquin color genetics) Danes, being both a popular breed and giant breed, can inherit a number of problems - structural problems, cardiac problems, thyroid, a tendancy to cancer - according to this source, they are susceptable to 68 different inherited diseases...and temperment issues. Some of those problems are polygenetic or the mode of inheritence is unknown. So...Sangha may or may not be right....

I think you could use some explanation about what conjob is referring to

I claimed the conjob does not know enough about canine genetics to breed GD's responsibly. As proof that he does indeed know about GD genetics, conjob stated that he knew not to breed two merles.

As your post shows, there is more to GD genetics than simply knowing not to breed them in this manner. conjobs knowing this one little tidbit of info does not "prove" that he "knows GD genetics"

So I'll ask you, do think conjobs' knowing about this PROVESthat conjob knows enough about genetics to breed GD's responsibly?

There isn't enough information to go on. Like I said - there's a lot more to it then the genetics of color and it's associated problems...so, I can't say...

But, I would ask Conhog if his dogs are OFA'd for hips and elbows and cardiac and possibly thyroid before being bred.

 

[ConHog]

I've had a pitbull mix for 5 and a half years now, I'm proud to say. And he's NEVER had an aggression issue... well, with living things. Put a perfectly cooked steak in front of him and he'll be pretty aggressive with the steak. Then again, so would I.

Sorry bro, I've known some pretty decent pits to, but I would NEVER trust one around a child, especially unattended.

Not saying it's their fault, but they have had a lot of incidents over the years.


On another subject, where did Sangha take off to when I proved him wrong, once again, by proving that I do indeed know my genetics when it comes to Danes?

Genetics goes well beyond color - aside from the hearing and vision issues of breeding two merles (which is involved in Harliquin color genetics) Danes, being both a popular breed and giant breed, can inherit a number of problems - structural problems, cardiac problems, thyroid, a tendancy to cancer - according to this source, they are susceptable to 68 different inherited diseases...and temperment issues. Some of those problems are polygenetic or the mode of inheritence is unknown. So...Sangha may or may not be right....

Right, I understand that, I was just giving a single example of something someone has to be aware of genetic wise when breeding Danes. I wasn't trying to bore the board with an enyclopedia of issues , nor did I claim that I know EVERYTHING, but that's the beauty, I don't have to know everything I have a vet who I consult with who IS an expert. I also have resources at my disposal such as books, websites, etc etc.

As for Sangha , I don't care if he's right or wrong. I'm tired of him dooshing up threads, if he wants to act the jackass he can take it down to the flame forum and I will gladly mix it up with him there. in the main forums, I'm ready to engage in adult conversations only.

 

[ConHog]

Genetics goes well beyond color - aside from the hearing and vision issues of breeding two merles (which is involved in Harliquin color genetics) Danes, being both a popular breed and giant breed, can inherit a number of problems - structural problems, cardiac problems, thyroid, a tendancy to cancer - according to this source, they are susceptable to 68 different inherited diseases...and temperment issues. Some of those problems are polygenetic or the mode of inheritence is unknown. So...Sangha may or may not be right....

I think you could use some explanation about what conjob is referring to

I claimed the conjob does not know enough about canine genetics to breed GD's responsibly. As proof that he does indeed know about GD genetics, conjob stated that he knew not to breed two merles.

As your post shows, there is more to GD genetics than simply knowing not to breed them in this manner. conjobs knowing this one little tidbit of info does not "prove" that he "knows GD genetics"

So I'll ask you, do think conjobs' knowing about this PROVESthat conjob knows enough about genetics to breed GD's responsibly?

There isn't enough information to go on. Like I said - there's a lot more to it then the genetics of color and it's associated problems...so, I can't say...

But, I would ask Conhog if his dogs are OFA'd for hips and elbows and cardiac and possibly thyroid before being bred.

My male and my female both endure a full battery of medical exams before breeding. They are pets, not money machines. if i for one moment thought that my female wasn't up to the task of carrying a litter of puppies I would never risk it, so the answer to your question is yes.

I especially worry about my males joints since he is so tall. But he gets a clean bill of health from the vet every year. I also of course as a responsible poet owner keep their shots up to date.

 

[syrenn]

in the main forums, I'm ready to engage in adult conversations only.

Ha ha HA HA HA oh really? Lets wait an see shall we?

 

[uscitizen]

Do animal shelters not screen dogs for aggression? The tv news said the guy got his dogs from the shelter -- why would they allow feral dogs to be adopted?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

They likely aren't feral dogs and yes, shelters increasingly screen for aggression but a lot of times, problems don't show up right away or only in certain situations.

Yes, like when they are in a pack.
Dogs, alld dogs, are subject to pack mentality. The most gentle dog will kill if it is not the alpha in a group of dogs, and that group is out of control. And once a dog learns to hunt in a pack it doesn't stop.

That's why I get so infuriated with morons who let their dogs run, saying they're nice family dogs. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Nice family dogs are dangerous when they're joined up by a couple of other nice family dogs who are used to running and chasing things.

I so agree - pack behavior is poorly understood by most people - in fact, it's not to different from mob behavior in humans.

Dogs are social predators. They've evolved/ been bred for thousands of years to accept humans as part of their "packs" - but even with an incomplete toolbox of instincts, they are still predators - even the family Golden.[/QUOTE]



Yep had to kill 2 dogs last week for chasing my stock. Got 2 out of the 5.