Manning's a Bronco?...

[rightwinger]

So his Super Bowl win wasn't a big game? How do you explain the collapse of the Colts with Manning missing?

I said signature game.......it's been five years, how much do you remember about how Manning performed?

By signature game, I mean...

Johnny Unitas beating the Giants in overtime
Bart Starr in the Ice Bowl
Joe Namath guaranteeing a win over the Colts
Joe Montana and "The Catch"
Eli beating an Undefeated Patriots with an 83 yd drive

Twenty years from now, which Peyton Manning win will you be talking about?

I'll be talking about a QB making below average team into Super Bowl winners. Just as one game doesn't make a quality QB.

If you want a signature game, AFC Championship game the Pats led 21-3, Manning rallied the Colts to the biggest comeback in a conference championship game. Then the Colts went on to win a Super Bowl.

Tebow beat the Steelers in overtime, it will long be remembered, so I guess it's a signature win, I still don't think of Tebow as a great QB.

I think Peyton Manning is one of the greatest Quarterbacks I have ever seen. If you like to talk QB statistics, Peyton is right up there with the best. But in terms of big game performance and championships, he has been a disappointment.

Peyton has nine playoff wins, his brother Eli has eight and Eli is not nearly has talented as Peyton and has not had the teams that Peyton has had. But Eli has more heart than Peyton

 

[Papageorgio]

I said signature game.......it's been five years, how much do you remember about how Manning performed?

By signature game, I mean...

Johnny Unitas beating the Giants in overtime
Bart Starr in the Ice Bowl
Joe Namath guaranteeing a win over the Colts
Joe Montana and "The Catch"
Eli beating an Undefeated Patriots with an 83 yd drive

Twenty years from now, which Peyton Manning win will you be talking about?

I'll be talking about a QB making below average team into Super Bowl winners. Just as one game doesn't make a quality QB.

If you want a signature game, AFC Championship game the Pats led 21-3, Manning rallied the Colts to the biggest comeback in a conference championship game. Then the Colts went on to win a Super Bowl.

Tebow beat the Steelers in overtime, it will long be remembered, so I guess it's a signature win, I still don't think of Tebow as a great QB.

I think Peyton Manning is one of the greatest Quarterbacks I have ever seen. If you like to talk QB statistics, Peyton is right up there with the best. But in terms of big game performance and championships, he has been a disappointment.

Peyton has nine playoff wins, his brother Eli has eight and Eli is not nearly has talented as Peyton and has not had the teams that Peyton has had. But Eli has more heart than Peyton

I respectfully disagree, I tend to think the way most think on the matter.

 

[samjones]

[
Did it only rain on one team? Seems to me champions wouldn't make stupid excuses like rain being the determining factor.

I'm not really a Bears fan so I'm not making excuses for anyone. I don't recall hearing Lovie Smith or Grossman or Urlacher or any of the Bears making excuses, so don't accuse them of making excuses because of something I wrote.

In fact, if bad weather would favor one team you would expect it to favor the outdoor team, so that excuse wouldn't make any sense any way.

However, having watched the game I can safely say that neither team was really able to execute its offense as they did in the regular season and the big plays seemed to be mostly special teams and turnovers. I guess we'll never really know who the best team of 2006 was. It was really a disservice to both teams.

 

[Papageorgio]

[
Did it only rain on one team? Seems to me champions wouldn't make stupid excuses like rain being the determining factor.

I'm not really a Bears fan so I'm not making excuses for anyone. I don't recall hearing Lovie Smith or Grossman or Urlacher or any of the Bears making excuses, so don't accuse them of making excuses because of something I wrote.

In fact, if bad weather would favor one team you would expect it to favor the outdoor team, so that excuse wouldn't make any sense any way.

However, having watched the game I can safely say that neither team was really able to execute its offense as they did in the regular season and the big plays seemed to be mostly special teams and turnovers. I guess we'll never really know who the best team of 2006 was. It was really a disservice to both teams.

I know who the best team was, it was the Colts, who Vegas favored by 7 and who won by 12, many turnovers? Yep, but that's the game, the Colts trailed by 8 after the first quarter and then held the Bears to 3 points as they scored 23. After watching the game I can safely say the best team won, so I really know who the best team was.

 

[Gadawg73]

Really fun to read most of the posts here as they reflect nothing close to Peyton Manning and the great contribution he made to the Colts and his footprint on pro football.
PM cane to the Colts as the #1 pick in the 1998 draft. Guess why teams get the #1 pick sports jockeys? NOT because the team is good but because the team IS VERY, VERY BAD.
Well, DUH.
The Indianopolis Colts NEVER won as many as 10 regular season games IN THE 14 YEARS BEFORE MANNING GOT THERE.
THEY AVERAGED 11 VICTORIES A YEAR OVER HIS 13 SEASONS THERE.
Took them to the playoffs NINE CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.
Does anyone here remember or even know who Tony Dungy is? Ask him what he thinks about the talent and carrer of Manning. I believe I would trust his judgment of a NFL player than Joe Six Pack.
And anyone with any knowledge of Indianapolis and the sports fans there knows damn well that before Manning arrived the town was strictly A PACERS town. I was at a Colts game there in the mid 90s and the Dolphins were in town. More than half the damn fans there had green on. By the time Manning had a few seasons there the entire stadium was blue.
Speaking of stadiums, again for those that are in the know in the NFL, Lucas stadium IS the house that Manning built. How many athletes are asked to speak to the legislature about state support for building stadiums?
And in the Not For Long League the players play for $$$, big $$$. And wins, not losses, brings $$$$. Not saying I like it and in fact to me the $$$ factor many times with the cap takes away from TEAM but it is WHAT IT IS.
The year before Manning got to the Colts Forbes, that lists the value of each NFL team each year, priced the Colts at 220 million, almost at the bottom of the league. They are appraised at 1.1 billion NOW after a very bad year.
Payton Manning.
I believe it was The Big O that was born in and may be the greatest athlete from Indianapolis but Peyton Manning IS THE GREATEST athlete ever to PLAY in that fair city.
And many a coach in team sports, especially in the Not For Long league, use indispensable as the BEST indicator of their best player on their team and in the game. "Who is the most indispensable player on the team? Who is that player that if he is not playing for us we have a harder time winning? Who is that guy that IF HE IS PLAYING, we have the best chance to win."
And that player over the last 15 years has been Peyton Manning. Colts were 141-67 with him and had THE WORST RECORD IN NFL without him.
No other QB on any other team in this time frame comes anywhere CLOSE TO THAT.
The man has FOUR, COUNT THEM, FOUR, the ONLY FOUR TIME WINNER OF THE MVP IN THE NFL.
Case closed.

 

[samjones]

And that player over the last 15 years has been Peyton Manning. Colts were 141-67 with him and had THE WORST RECORD IN NFL without him.
No other QB on any other team in this time frame comes anywhere CLOSE TO THAT.

I have some vague recollection of some guy who led his team to 5 Superbowls, winning 3 and racking up an unbelievable win/loss record including the only 16 game undefeated regular season in league history and a host of other records.

Whatever happened to that guy? Is he still around?

So, to your point of indispensibility, I would have to say the answer to the question "is a player great simply because he is indispensible" is "no".

Hoss filled in just fine for Phil Simms in '90. Steve Young filled in fine for Joe Montana in '91 and Steve Bono filled in fine for Young when he got knocked out. The Niners missed the playoffs that year, but if you followed their season then you'll know that it wasn't for lack of quarterback performance.

I remember back in '01 when the Future Hall of Famer Drew Bledsoe got knocked out of the game and his backup stepped in and did an okay job. Can't remember the guy's name but he had a knack for making big plays.

He was nowhere good as Peyton Manning, of course, because no other QB can come CLOSE TO HIM.

 

[Staidhup]

One would have to admit Peyton and Elway deserve each other, a good fit, now lets see how that one works out, needless to say it ought to be interesting. The key question remaining is durability.

 

[Gadawg73]

And that player over the last 15 years has been Peyton Manning. Colts were 141-67 with him and had THE WORST RECORD IN NFL without him.
No other QB on any other team in this time frame comes anywhere CLOSE TO THAT.

I have some vague recollection of some guy who led his team to 5 Superbowls, winning 3 and racking up an unbelievable win/loss record including the only 16 game undefeated regular season in league history and a host of other records.

Whatever happened to that guy? Is he still around?

So, to your point of indispensibility, I would have to say the answer to the question "is a player great simply because he is indispensible" is "no".

Hoss filled in just fine for Phil Simms in '90. Steve Young filled in fine for Joe Montana in '91 and Steve Bono filled in fine for Young when he got knocked out. The Niners missed the playoffs that year, but if you followed their season then you'll know that it wasn't for lack of quarterback performance.

I remember back in '01 when the Future Hall of Famer Drew Bledsoe got knocked out of the game and his backup stepped in and did an okay job. Can't remember the guy's name but he had a knack for making big plays.

He was nowhere good as Peyton Manning, of course, because no other QB can come CLOSE TO HIM.

Where did I ever make the absurd claim that the QB you mention has had a "dissapointing career" and "underachieved"?
Where?
Your entire evidence to that is "well, Brady is a better QB so Manning underachieved and had a dissapointing career".
And that is about the weakest argument I have ever heard to judge the career of ANY player at any position at any time.
Tom Brady is a great player and I believe a better player than Manning.
How does that make Manning's career and achievements "dissapointing" and label him as an "underachiever".
Underachiever?
An underachiever with 4 MVP awards.
Sure, right.
Archie Manning is the only player EVER to win MVP and be on a losing team. If that does not tell you the fact the the MVP is the BEST player in the league for that year nothing does. And the fact that he is PM/s father is irrelevant here as my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.
You are a funny man Sam.

 

[samjones]

my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

 

[rightwinger]

my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

Eli Manning has been an underdog in seven playoff games...

His record is 7-0 in those games

 

[Gadawg73]

my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

"almost the same responsibility that the coach has"
You are one lost puppy when it comes to football. You are entitled to your opinion.

QBs do not play defense. Offense scores points. Defense WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

 

[Gadawg73]

my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

Under your logic in this post Brady has been an underachiever and a disappointment because he lost the last Super Bowl.
He was the same as a coach in that game under your logic and he lost.
But wait a minute, that is not the logic you used in a previous post.
Dude, you are all over the place.

 

[Gadawg73]

my point is that MVP is the most difficult INDIVIDUAL award to win in all of football.
53 players lead teams to Super Bowls, not QBs alone.
This ain't golf or tennis, this is the NFL, A TEAM SPORT.

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

Eli Manning has been an underdog in seven playoff games...

His record is 7-0 in those games

NO, the New York Football Giants have been a underdog in seven playoff games and their record is 7-0 in those games.

 

[rightwinger]

See, I don't think of it quite that way for these marquis NFL quarterbacks. Especially after they've been with a program for 4 or 5 years. They have almost the same responsibility that the coach has to make sure whatever it takes they have the personnel to win.

For a player like Manning I would say that the primary responsibility for winning and losing in February falls on him and his head coach. You feel a little sorry for a player like Collins who simply had a bad day or Brady '12 who had receivers dropping the balls they should have caught, but 9 years out of 10 I'll say the better quarterback won the Superbowl.

If you think you're a great quarterback in the NFL and you aren't there to win Superbowls then I'd say you have a major mental malfunction. P. Manning did win MVP 4 times. He did not win the Superbowl any of those years. There are 3 active QB's (all younger) that have better Superbowl records than P. Manning and if I had to make a prediction then I'd say chances are good that this time next year there will be 4.

What makes P. Manning's career a disappointment is that he had a chance to have a perfect season and one-up Brady's 2007 16-0 season but instead he chose to simply not try. I cannot forgive that as a football fan and if I were a Colts fan I would have been permanently colored on P. Manning for that decision.

Oh wait, I know - the coach made that decision. Peyton had nothing to do with it, right?

Riiiiiiighhhht........

On the other hand, I think that E. Manning's 2007 season will always stand out to me as one of the greatest QB season's in history, primarily because he first had to deal with the Jeremy Shockey bullshit and then after that was taken care of he moved right on and truly led the greatest team in the NFL in the last 5 weeks of the season. Very impressive. It was David and Goliath every game of the playoffs for him.

Eli Manning has been an underdog in seven playoff games...

His record is 7-0 in those games

NO, the New York Football Giants have been a underdog in seven playoff games and their record is 7-0 in those games.

Good point....

But by the same logic, Peyton Manning does not have all those passing yards and touchdowns. They are the result of his coaching staff, offensive line and receivers

 

[samjones]

Under your logic in this post Brady has been an underachiever and a disappointment because he lost the last Super Bowl.
He was the same as a coach in that game under your logic and he lost.
But wait a minute, that is not the logic you used in a previous post.
Dude, you are all over the place.

Disappointment for sure. "Underacheiver?" Meh - I think at this point in his career Brady can safely argue he's achieved quite a bit. He does have arguably the best Superbowl record in history. There are 14 guys who have a better Superbowl record than P. Manning.

Plus there was the whole deal with him walking away from a perfect season. Brady never did that. He could have taken the bench in the last game of the season against the eventual Superbowl Champions but he hung in there and fought. Gotta admire that.

I don't think that there is a football fan alive who didn't see Superbowl XLV as a rematch between Brady and E. Manning. Even though they never took the field at the same time it just seemed like they were facing each other down. The asterisk by Brady's name will read "*But Eli Manning had his number". Everybody knows that, Patriots fan and Giants fan alike.

 

[Gadawg73]

Under your logic in this post Brady has been an underachiever and a disappointment because he lost the last Super Bowl.
He was the same as a coach in that game under your logic and he lost.
But wait a minute, that is not the logic you used in a previous post.
Dude, you are all over the place.

Disappointment for sure. "Underacheiver?" Meh - I think at this point in his career Brady can safely argue he's achieved quite a bit. He does have arguably the best Superbowl record in history. There are 14 guys who have a better Superbowl record than P. Manning.

Plus there was the whole deal with him walking away from a perfect season. Brady never did that. He could have taken the bench in the last game of the season against the eventual Superbowl Champions but he hung in there and fought. Gotta admire that.

I don't think that there is a football fan alive who didn't see Superbowl XLV as a rematch between Brady and E. Manning. Even though they never took the field at the same time it just seemed like they were facing each other down. The asterisk by Brady's name will read "*But Eli Manning had his number". Everybody knows that, Patriots fan and Giants fan alike.

Sam, you do not use the same criteria in your evaluation of Brady and Manning.
Brady does not play defense so how does Eli have his number???

 

[Montrovant]

Under your logic in this post Brady has been an underachiever and a disappointment because he lost the last Super Bowl.
He was the same as a coach in that game under your logic and he lost.
But wait a minute, that is not the logic you used in a previous post.
Dude, you are all over the place.

Disappointment for sure. "Underacheiver?" Meh - I think at this point in his career Brady can safely argue he's achieved quite a bit. He does have arguably the best Superbowl record in history. There are 14 guys who have a better Superbowl record than P. Manning.

Plus there was the whole deal with him walking away from a perfect season. Brady never did that. He could have taken the bench in the last game of the season against the eventual Superbowl Champions but he hung in there and fought. Gotta admire that.

I don't think that there is a football fan alive who didn't see Superbowl XLV as a rematch between Brady and E. Manning. Even though they never took the field at the same time it just seemed like they were facing each other down. The asterisk by Brady's name will read "*But Eli Manning had his number". Everybody knows that, Patriots fan and Giants fan alike.

Your arguments seem to wander all over the place. Brady has arguably the best SB record at 3-2, when there are 2 quarterbacks who went 4-0 in the SB? This, after you earlier said that consistently winning the SB was one of the important measurements of a great qb?

Manning 'walked away' from a perfect season, as though his coaching staff is immaterial. If he were a 'champion', he'd have ignored the coaches and played anyway! On the other hand, I don't recall any instances of Brady ignoring Belichick.

You've said Joe Namath, who had a 50% career completion percentage, who threw more int's than td's (including in his SB year) is a better QB than Jim Kelly, the only QB to go to 4 SB's in a row, who had much better stats; does that mean that any QB with a SB win is better than any QB without one? If not, why is Namath better than Kelly but someone else, like Dilfer, is not?

Would you consider Otto Graham a better QB than any of these others, with his 7-3 NFL championship record?

Obviously these kinds of arguments are very subjective, but just what you base your opinion on is pretty unclear.

 

[samjones]

Brady has arguably the best SB record at 3-2, when there are 2 quarterbacks who went 4-0 in the SB? This, after you earlier said that consistently winning the SB was one of the important measurements of a great qb?

A 3-2 SB record is arguably better than a 4-0 SB record. It's about understanding what the word "arguably" means.

Manning 'walked away' from a perfect season, as though his coaching staff is immaterial. If he were a 'champion', he'd have ignored the coaches and played anyway! On the other hand, I don't recall any instances of Brady ignoring Belichick.

That's just pure bullshit. A coach doesn't stop a quarterback from pursuing a perfect season. I do not accept that P. Manning was powerless to prevent his removal from the game against the Jest. It's simply makes no sense.

I think it's more probably that the Colts would prefer to play the Jest in the playoffs so they let them win.

Going to the Superbowl is good for a QB. 2 active QBs, both younger, have done that more times that P. Manning. Winning is better. 3 active QBs have done that.

It is true that P. Manning won the AP MVP 4 times, but the Brady won the NFL's all-decade 1st team spot, which is far more prestigious. P. Manning was 2nd team. In all those MVP years P. Manning never won a Superbowl. If you don't think winning Superbowls is important for a quarterback then maybe you just never cheered for a Superbowl winning team.

I would judge E. Manning on different criteria than those other 2 simply because he is a different kind of player.

 

[Montrovant]

Brady has arguably the best SB record at 3-2, when there are 2 quarterbacks who went 4-0 in the SB? This, after you earlier said that consistently winning the SB was one of the important measurements of a great qb?

A 3-2 SB record is arguably better than a 4-0 SB record. It's about understanding what the word "arguably" means.

Manning 'walked away' from a perfect season, as though his coaching staff is immaterial. If he were a 'champion', he'd have ignored the coaches and played anyway! On the other hand, I don't recall any instances of Brady ignoring Belichick.

That's just pure bullshit. A coach doesn't stop a quarterback from pursuing a perfect season. I do not accept that P. Manning was powerless to prevent his removal from the game against the Jest. It's simply makes no sense.

I think it's more probably that the Colts would prefer to play the Jest in the playoffs so they let them win.

Going to the Superbowl is good for a QB. 2 active QBs, both younger, have done that more times that P. Manning. Winning is better. 3 active QBs have done that.

It is true that P. Manning won the AP MVP 4 times, but the Brady won the NFL's all-decade 1st team spot, which is far more prestigious. P. Manning was 2nd team. In all those MVP years P. Manning never won a Superbowl. If you don't think winning Superbowls is important for a quarterback then maybe you just never cheered for a Superbowl winning team.

I would judge E. Manning on different criteria than those other 2 simply because he is a different kind of player.

I understand what the word arguably means. Do you understand that when you make the argument that consistently winning the SB is the mark of a great QB, that then saying Brady's 3-2 record might be better than Bradshaw's 4-0 record is silly? Sure, you can argue Brady's record is better....but if you also argue consistency in winning is of great importance, you aren't making any sense.

How many NFL seasons did you play? How many college seasons? If the answer to those questions is zero, how do you know that Manning could control whether or not the Colts would go for a perfect season with him? Even if you played college and even NFL football, unless you played for that coach, how do you know what kind of control he had over his team, or what kind of relationship he and Manning had, which would determine who had the final say in if Manning played?

Oh, and the Colts lost on purpose to play the Jets? I suppose it's possible, but I doubt many players would be good with throwing games to pick playoff opponents. Why you think that is more likely than the Colts simply wanting to avoid injury and rest their players when their seeding was already determined I don't understand. It's not as though resting players late in the season was a new concept; it had been done before.

I don't care if you think Brady is better than Manning. I think he is as well. Winning SBs IS a consideration in who is the greatest IMO. I don't put as much importance on it as you seem to....although I'm not sure just how much importance you put on it, since you aren't consistent in your application of it.

Oh, and as a Niner fan since the 80s, I've cheered more than 1 QB in the SB.

 

[Papageorgio]

And that player over the last 15 years has been Peyton Manning. Colts were 141-67 with him and had THE WORST RECORD IN NFL without him.
No other QB on any other team in this time frame comes anywhere CLOSE TO THAT.

I have some vague recollection of some guy who led his team to 5 Superbowls, winning 3 and racking up an unbelievable win/loss record including the only 16 game undefeated regular season in league history and a host of other records.

Whatever happened to that guy? Is he still around?

So, to your point of indispensibility, I would have to say the answer to the question "is a player great simply because he is indispensible" is "no".

Hoss filled in just fine for Phil Simms in '90. Steve Young filled in fine for Joe Montana in '91 and Steve Bono filled in fine for Young when he got knocked out. The Niners missed the playoffs that year, but if you followed their season then you'll know that it wasn't for lack of quarterback performance.

I remember back in '01 when the Future Hall of Famer Drew Bledsoe got knocked out of the game and his backup stepped in and did an okay job. Can't remember the guy's name but he had a knack for making big plays.

He was nowhere good as Peyton Manning, of course, because no other QB can come CLOSE TO HIM.

The difference is Brady and Manning is that Brady plays under the Belichick system and it makes QB's look very good, see Cassell, that said,Brady has a lot of talent. Coaches work around Manning's abilities, they don't fit Manning into their system.