Minimum Wage Increase: They Never Talks About the SALES

[protectionist]

If idiots vote for the Dems, I can't help them.
Doesn't make your OP any less wrong.
Raise the minimum wage all you want, the libs will get credit from the winners and the losers will blame the conservatives. It's a lose-lose.

That is 2006 mindset. MW raise is no longer a liberal issue. It is clearly favored by conservatives, and there is nothing logical to be said against it, and you haven't presented anything that way either.

yes, there is only logic against it.....it will cost jobs, it will put small businesses out of business and people will end up working more jobs because they are only getting so many hours to compensate for the increased salary......

Cost jobs ? See Post # 80 for how you've already been refuted.

 

[protectionist]

The politics is very interesting, I'm still waiting for you to prove your economics claim.
8 pages and you're still avoiding the main issue.
I'm shocked.

I'm waiting for YOU to present YOUR side. You have nothing but conjecture. You haven't said a thing about INCREASED SALES. All you do is yak about wages.

 

[protectionist]

Republicans think "Supply and demand" is some ridiculous liberal policy that has no chance of ever working. They think it's the "job creators" who run the economy. You only need to make sure the "job creators" have enough money and they will create jobs.

Republicans simply don't understand that when people have money and spend it, that drives the economy. You can try to explain it to them, but like science, they not only don't get it, they won't get it.

The only thing I would disagree with you on, is that only SOME Republicans think as you described. Recent Gallup polls shows clear majorities of both Republicans and Conservatives supporting minimum wage raises. Conservative opposition to MW increase is a thing of the past.

 

[2aguy]

Republicans think "Supply and demand" is some ridiculous liberal policy that has no chance of ever working. They think it's the "job creators" who run the economy. You only need to make sure the "job creators" have enough money and they will create jobs.

Republicans simply don't understand that when people have money and spend it, that drives the economy. You can try to explain it to them, but like science, they not only don't get it, they won't get it.

The only thing I would disagree with you on, is that only SOME Republicans think as you described. Recent Gallup polls shows clear majorities of both Republicans and Conservatives supporting minimum wage raises. Conservative opposition to MW increase is a thing of the past.

Yes...they have been brow beaten into allowing jobs to be lost, businesses to close....and the funny thing...these republicans will get blamed when all of that happens....and then the democrats will say the minimum wage needs to be raised to help all those people now out of work...and working reduced hours.....

 

[2aguy]

He said it would cause jobs to be lost. FALSE! Employers function with a number of employees that bring them the most income/profit. They CANNOT reduce staff. Any more or less employees results in SALES and income reduction. Layoffs result in losses, not gains.

Where is the chart that shows employers the precise number of employees they should hire in order to get the most income/profit?


He (and Banderas too) said prices would be raised (or fees created) to compensate for the wage losses, and these losses would just be "passed on" to the customers. More FALSE! scare talk. Businesses CANNOT raise prices because they are already fixed at a market price, related to maximization of sales/income. Any change in price (up or down) results in reduction of SALES and income.
Where is the chart that shows employers the precise price level they need in order to get the most sales/income?

He said businesses will move away from LA. FALSE! (in most cases). Does Gamm think that closing down a business and moving to another location can be done scott (no pun intended) free ?

Did anyone say moving was free?

Depending on the business, moving costs can vary from just barely economical, to completely UNeconomical, and the latter is much more often the case. Imagine a machine shop with over 100 large production machines, having to pack then all up and move miles away.

Imagine a machine shop with over 100 large production machines, having to pay higher wages than the business could support. Imagine that business running at a loss, just because some politicians, who couldn't pass an Econ 101 class, created a stupid law.

Do you even realize how hollow this response is? You don't even have an argument. Any idiot taking an Econ class knows that consumer spending is what drives this economy. Consumer spending comes from paychecks. This isn't hard to grasp.

You guys have no clue......just raise the minimum wage and that means paychecks will go up.....as if that was the only thing keeping the salary at that level...just a simple decision to put more money in the pay check...who knew? You guys are geniuses........sure...they won't lay off or fire employees because they can't afford them...they won't raise prices to cover the wages...they will just go out to the back of their business to their money tree, and just shake it a little more......why didn't they fucking think of that before...thanks guys...problem fucking solved......

Oh we have no clue, huh? HA HA HA. Uh EARTH TO 2AGUY: Try reading item # 1 and 2 in the OP. the ones that refuted what you just said, before you even arrived here.

Let me tell it to you like this. My ex-wife owned a boutique in a mall. She had a certain # of employees. And what do you think got her to choose that # of them ? You think maybe it was her lucky number ? Her birthday number ? It was the number at which she makes the most money. Get it ? So if she lays people off, she than has less employees, less sales, less income. Starting to focus for you ?

You have no clue....but you guys will see.....the consequences of your previous increases destroyed jobs for teenagers...not happy with that destruction you will now move on to destroying the next level of low wage employee....

My ex-wife owned a boutique in a mall

Hmmm...interesting choice of words....does she still own this boutique?

 

[Dragonlady]

My refutation of the OP was shallow?

Non-existent.

In every location and instance where the minimum wage has be raised, unemployment has gone DOWN. By a lot. The whole notion that jobs are lost by increasing wages is a fallacy. The increased cash in workers' pockets raises their spending, and thus increases demand and hence jobs.

The biggest obstacle right now to growing the US economy is that workers have no disposable income. Their credit is maxxed out and they can't spend. Demand drives the economy and there is a lot of pent up demand, but no money to buy. Increasing wages will release that pent up demand and fuel a strong boom.

Once demand is released, businesses can start to expand.

Read the studies and reports on raising minimum wages.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm not surprised you support increasing the minimum wage because you are a socialist moron, and you are certainly no conservative.

Conservatives who support raising the MW outnumber conservatives who oppose it 54% to 44%, you blockhead. Try reading the whole OP, before tumbling in here like a fool.

Being popular doesn't make it smart. If it did, then Obama voters would be smart.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The politics is very interesting, I'm still waiting for you to prove your economics claim.
8 pages and you're still avoiding the main issue.
I'm shocked.

I'm waiting for YOU to present YOUR side. You have nothing but conjecture. You haven't said a thing about INCREASED SALES. All you do is yak about wages.

I'm waiting for YOU to present YOUR side.

Here's my side. A business that has $500,000 in increased payroll expenses, even if it recaptures that entire cost in increased sales, will still be less profitable than before.

 

[Dragonlady]

You're assuming that the business can't make enough to cover their increased costs. How do you know that it isn't possible?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're assuming that the business can't make enough to cover their increased costs. How do you know that it isn't possible?

If a business has an extra $500,000 in costs, how much more do they need to sell to recover that cost?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Just now, I saw another report about the topic of minimum wage increase. This one was on CNN, hosted by Julie Banderas. She was talking to Scott Gamm, of HelpSaveMyDollars.com, a financial website focused on helping consumers save and learn about money. They were talking about the recent 14-1 vote by the city of Los Angeles to raise the minimum wage to $15 by 2020.

Scott might be well versed on various aspects pertaining to consumer finances but, on the minimum wage raise, he is waaay off the mark. He said three things about the minimum wage raise topic. And he was WRONG on all three. Gamm merely recited the 3 most commonly heard (and programmed) descriptions about minimum wage raises.

1. He said it would cause jobs to be lost. FALSE! Employers function with a number of employees that bring them the most income/profit. They CANNOT reduce staff. Any more or less employees results in SALES and income reduction. Layoffs result in losses, not gains.

2. He (and Banderas too) said prices would be raised (or fees created) to compensate for the wage losses, and these losses would just be "passed on" to the customers. More FALSE! scare talk. Businesses CANNOT raise prices because they are already fixed at a market price, related to maximization of sales/income. Any change in price (up or down) results in reduction of SALES and income.

3. He said businesses will move away from LA. FALSE! (in most cases). Does Gamm think that closing down a business and moving to another location can be done scott (no pun intended) free ? Depending on the business, moving costs can vary from just barely economical, to completely UNeconomical, and the latter is much more often the case. Imagine a machine shop with over 100 large production machines, having to pack then all up and move miles away. Some businesses could do it. Not many.

So here's the real crux of all this. As in 1000 other media reports I've seen on minimum wage increases, the most important aspect of this is NEVER MENTIONED. Not a word. That is the increase in DISPOSABLE INCOME resulting in INCREASES SALES$$$. All businesses get this, and generally it far outweighs labor increases, since the number of wage raised consumers (not just those at the minimum wage) by far outnumbers any one employer's workers who are getting wage increases.

Then there's also the fact that many business, while receiving this big SALES boost, do NOT have any wage loss at all. These are businesses who are mom & pop and have no employees, those whose workers are all working just on sales commission (car lots, furniture, real estate, insurance, etc), and third, those with skilled workers (ex. machine shops) whose workers all already get well over $15 hour, or whatever the MW would be raised to.

I think back to when I owned a business. I paid my commission salespeople $350/hour (in 2015 dollars), and they still were only receiving 15% of the sale. In all, I made fine profits and expanded the business. Biggest downer ? All the people who called in and said > "Sorry. I can't afford it." Of course they can't. Not one somebody out there is paying them a low minimum wage. To be successful in business, you have a lot fo things to do. But you can't do anything, if the public around you doesn't have money in their pockets to buy what you're trying to sell.

This is why Conservatives who support raising the MW nationwide, outnumber Conservatives who don't, 54% to 44%.

the most important aspect of this is NEVER MENTIONED. Not a word. That is the increase in DISPOSABLE INCOME resulting in INCREASES SALES$$$.

If I pay my employees another $500,000 a year, are my sales supposed to increase by $500,000?
Is that supposed to be an even trade?

I don't understand how you can be so dense. The economic benefits of raising the minimum wage would occur because the change would happen in the entire economy. Overall, a good portion of the economy would have more disposable income, so yeah, business in general would see an increase in demand.

again did that happen between 2007 thru 2009? You don't have a clue about profit margins of most company's

 

[JoeMoma]

I've learned a lot from the op, but not being that good of a student I'm a little confused. If I understand the op correctly, when the minimum wage goes up, sales increase because the customer base has more disposable income to use for buying and this results in increased profits for the businesses. Here's where I'm confused and perhaps a few questions can be answered to clear up my confusion. If a higher minimum wage results in higher profits, then wouldn't a higher minimum wage always be better than a lower minimum wage? So how fast can the minimum wage be raised, and how high can it go and still achieve these results? If $15 per hour is good, then why not $20 or $25? Let's make those profits shoot through the roof. Also, how fast can the minimum wage be raised? Economic prosperity is out there for all! What are we waiting for?

 

[bripat9643]

I've learned a lot from the op, but not being that good of a student I'm a little confused. If I understand the op correctly, when the minimum wage goes up, sales increase because the customer base has more disposable income to use for buying and this results in increased profits for the businesses. Here's where I'm confused and perhaps a few questions can be answered to clear up my confusion. If a higher minimum wage results in higher profits, then wouldn't a higher minimum wage always be better than a lower minimum wage? So how fast can the minimum wage be raised, and how high can it go and still achieve these results? If $15 per hour is good, then why not $20 or $25? Let's make those profits shoot through the roof. Also, how fast can the minimum wage be raised? Economic prosperity is out there for all! What are we waiting for?

The author of the OP doesn't know jack squat about economics. Sales at the firm where the wages are raised do not go up. They go down. Higher wages means they have to charge higher prices for their products. Every first year economics student learns that sales volume is determined by the laws of supply and demand. The higher the price, the lower the volume of sales.

People who spout the kind of logic in the OP are nitwits who don't know the first thing about economics. They are ignorant and therefore susceptible to leftwing propaganda.

 

[Dragonlady]

You're the one who is ignorant.

Idiots argued relentlessly during the Clinton administration that raising the MW would kills jobs using the same tired arguments you make. When Clinton raised the MW, spending increased, unemployment went down and the opposite of what you and other short sighted conservatives said would happen.

Conservatives are the people who consistently wreck the economy. Why do you listen to anything they say.

Look at job creation and income under Republicans post Eisenhower. And then look at it under Democrats.

Look at the FACTS, not what Republicans dream things will be like.

Canada had the fastest growing middle class in the world right now. Our MW is just under $11 per hour.

 

[bripat9643]

You're the one who is ignorant.

Idiots argued relentlessly during the Clinton administration that raising the MW would kills jobs using the same tired arguments you make. When Clinton raised the MW, spending increased, unemployment went down and the opposite of what you and other short sighted conservatives said would happen.

Conservatives are the people who consistently wreck the economy. Why do you listen to anything they say.

Look at job creation and income under Republicans post Eisenhower. And then look at it under Democrats.

Look at the FACTS, not what Republicans dream things will be like.

Canada had the fastest growing middle class in the world right now. Our MW is just under $11 per hour.

What morons like you fail to understand is that you can't prove economic theories with statistics. During any instant of time thousands of variables are affecting the economy. Trying to single out one independent variable as the cause of some dependent variable is a futile endeavor. The fact that you believe it to be possible only shows what an economic ignoramus you are.

 

[JoeMoma]

You're the one who is ignorant.

Idiots argued relentlessly during the Clinton administration that raising the MW would kills jobs using the same tired arguments you make. When Clinton raised the MW, spending increased, unemployment went down and the opposite of what you and other short sighted conservatives said would happen.

Conservatives are the people who consistently wreck the economy. Why do you listen to anything they say.

Look at job creation and income under Republicans post Eisenhower. And then look at it under Democrats.

Look at the FACTS, not what Republicans dream things will be like.

Canada had the fastest growing middle class in the world right now. Our MW is just under $11 per hour.

That minimum wage needs to be raised. $11 per hour is too low. The middle class can do better.

 

[JoeMoma]

I've learned a lot from the op, but not being that good of a student I'm a little confused. If I understand the op correctly, when the minimum wage goes up, sales increase because the customer base has more disposable income to use for buying and this results in increased profits for the businesses. Here's where I'm confused and perhaps a few questions can be answered to clear up my confusion. If a higher minimum wage results in higher profits, then wouldn't a higher minimum wage always be better than a lower minimum wage? So how fast can the minimum wage be raised, and how high can it go and still achieve these results? If $15 per hour is good, then why not $20 or $25? Let's make those profits shoot through the roof. Also, how fast can the minimum wage be raised? Economic prosperity is out there for all! What are we waiting for?

The author of the OP doesn't know jack squat about economics. Sales at the firm where the wages are raised do not go up. They go down. Higher wages means they have to charge higher prices for their products. Every first year economics student learns that sales volume is determined by the laws of supply and demand. The higher the price, the lower the volume of sales.

People who spout the kind of logic in the OP are nitwits who don't know the first thing about economics. They are ignorant and therefore susceptible to leftwing propaganda.

But Protectionist ran a business and paid his commissioned sales people $350/hour (in 2015 dollars). He's got to know what he is talking about!

 

[Dragonlady]

You're the one who is ignorant.

Idiots argued relentlessly during the Clinton administration that raising the MW would kills jobs using the same tired arguments you make. When Clinton raised the MW, spending increased, unemployment went down and the opposite of what you and other short sighted conservatives said would happen.

Conservatives are the people who consistently wreck the economy. Why do you listen to anything they say.

Look at job creation and income under Republicans post Eisenhower. And then look at it under Democrats.

Look at the FACTS, not what Republicans dream things will be like.

Canada had the fastest growing middle class in the world right now. Our MW is just under $11 per hour.

What morons like you fail to understand is that you can't prove economic theories with statistics. During any instant of time thousands of variables are affecting the economy. Trying to single out one independent variable as the cause of some dependent variable is a futile endeavor. The fact that you believe it to be possible only shows what an economic ignoramus you are.

You have no real life business experience, and your so-called ideas are all conservative talking points. Get back to me after you've run a successful business paying shit wages.

 

[bripat9643]

You're the one who is ignorant.

Idiots argued relentlessly during the Clinton administration that raising the MW would kills jobs using the same tired arguments you make. When Clinton raised the MW, spending increased, unemployment went down and the opposite of what you and other short sighted conservatives said would happen.

Conservatives are the people who consistently wreck the economy. Why do you listen to anything they say.

Look at job creation and income under Republicans post Eisenhower. And then look at it under Democrats.

Look at the FACTS, not what Republicans dream things will be like.

Canada had the fastest growing middle class in the world right now. Our MW is just under $11 per hour.

What morons like you fail to understand is that you can't prove economic theories with statistics. During any instant of time thousands of variables are affecting the economy. Trying to single out one independent variable as the cause of some dependent variable is a futile endeavor. The fact that you believe it to be possible only shows what an economic ignoramus you are.

You have no real life business experience, and your so-called ideas are all conservative talking points. Get back to me after you've run a successful business paying shit wages.

My ideas are basic economics. Your ideas are pure abracadabra.

You're a leftwing loon who rejects economics.

 

[Dragonlady]

That minimum wage needs to be raised. $11 per hour is too low. The middle class can do better.

It's adjusted regularly. Don't forget that in Canada, we have single payer healthcare- no co-pays, unemployment insurance and overall a much better social safety net than Americans.