Morm prez ordered to court - financial fraud

[Luddly Neddite]

Trying to change the argument are we?

How they get money to run the organization is irrelevant to your argument that religions exist solely to get money. Religious organizations exist to create a community in which we can worship God together. The fact that we may need money to buy property, construct houses of worship, and power and heat buildings is completely ancillary to the purpose.

Of course, I am confident you already know this which is why you are trying to create this straw man.

Your reasoning is quite circular: Religions exist in order to have a place to have a religion.

And, none of what you wrote changes the fact that without money from followers, there would be no physical plant.

I don't get why some of you are in such denial about that. Or why you feel you must lie about something so utterly obvious.

Oh wait - I forgot you're morm and you learn "lying for the lord" starting at a very early age.

Well except that tithing is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. No one is forced to pay, no one is badgered to pay, no one is compelled in any sort of way to pay a tithe except from their support and belief in the Church. There are no Church agencies designed maintained or supported that compel members to tithe, no strong arm tactics by anyone. In fact the entire process is between you and your Bishop.

You are encouraged to tithe as it is a tenant of the Church. But then tithe is also found in the Bible and other churches ask for it as well.

Who said its not?
And, what does that have to do with this?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Your reasoning is quite circular: Religions exist in order to have a place to have a religion.

And, none of what you wrote changes the fact that without money from followers, there would be no physical plant.

I don't get why some of you are in such denial about that. Or why you feel you must lie about something so utterly obvious.

Oh wait - I forgot you're morm and you learn "lying for the lord" starting at a very early age.

Well except that tithing is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. No one is forced to pay, no one is badgered to pay, no one is compelled in any sort of way to pay a tithe except from their support and belief in the Church. There are no Church agencies designed maintained or supported that compel members to tithe, no strong arm tactics by anyone. In fact the entire process is between you and your Bishop.

You are encouraged to tithe as it is a tenant of the Church. But then tithe is also found in the Bible and other churches ask for it as well.

Who said its not?
And, what does that have to do with this?

The claim in court is financial fraud. Tithing is not fraud. It is a practice recognized by numerous religions as it is in the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon.

Further the President of the Church does not collect receive or have anything to do with tithing or donations to the church. That is handled at the local level by the local Bishop.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Did you bother to read the article? The claim is that 7 tenants of the Church are false and so tithing is fraud.

First the argument that tenants of the Bible or Book of Mormon are false is a RELIGIOUS question and forbidden to the English Court. And the complaint challenges both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

The entire fraud case rests on somehow proving that passages in the Bible or Book of Mormon or church tenants are in fact false. And that such teachings makes the VOLUNTARY practice of tithing somehow fraud.

This is in fact a nuisance complaint and against the law because of the religious questions based on English law.

Every member of the Mormon Church is encouraged to pray about their belief and only act on what they believe is the right choice based on private musings between the individual and God.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Well except that tithing is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. No one is forced to pay, no one is badgered to pay, no one is compelled in any sort of way to pay a tithe except from their support and belief in the Church. There are no Church agencies designed maintained or supported that compel members to tithe, no strong arm tactics by anyone. In fact the entire process is between you and your Bishop.

You are encouraged to tithe as it is a tenant of the Church. But then tithe is also found in the Bible and other churches ask for it as well.

Who said its not?
And, what does that have to do with this?

The claim in court is financial fraud. Tithing is not fraud. It is a practice recognized by numerous religions as it is in the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon.

Further the President of the Church does not collect receive or have anything to do with tithing or donations to the church. That is handled at the local level by the local Bishop.

First, the accusation does not state that "tithing is fraud". Additionally, the case has not been settled so you really don't know what the verdict will be.

BUT, the point I have been making is that religions are "organized" to make money. If they don't get you to give them money, they cannot exist.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...red-to-court-financial-fraud.html#post8574402

And, if you didn't give them money, how would they pay for their tax-free churches?

Religions are organized for one reason and one reason only - money.

Or are you saying that you can't get into heaven if you don't belong to and go to and pay off an organized religion?

If one wanted to, one could "worship" out back, under the tree. As far as I know, none of the various gods say you have to be inside a building in order to worship.

You want a building? You need money, and that money comes from followers of that particular god.

Denying it or pretending that "tithing" is something other than a way to finance an organized religion is dishonest. Or maybe its just naive.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Who said its not?
And, what does that have to do with this?

The claim in court is financial fraud. Tithing is not fraud. It is a practice recognized by numerous religions as it is in the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon.

Further the President of the Church does not collect receive or have anything to do with tithing or donations to the church. That is handled at the local level by the local Bishop.

First, the accusation does not state that "tithing is fraud". Additionally, the case has not been settled so you really don't know what the verdict will be.

BUT, the point I have been making is that religions are "organized" to make money. If they don't get you to give them money, they cannot exist.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...red-to-court-financial-fraud.html#post8574402

And, if you didn't give them money, how would they pay for their tax-free churches?

Religions are organized for one reason and one reason only - money.

Or are you saying that you can't get into heaven if you don't belong to and go to and pay off an organized religion?

If one wanted to, one could "worship" out back, under the tree. As far as I know, none of the various gods say you have to be inside a building in order to worship.

You want a building? You need money, and that money comes from followers of that particular god.

Denying it or pretending that "tithing" is something other than a way to finance an organized religion is dishonest. Or maybe its just naive.

None of which has any bearing on this op. Or the supposed fraud case. The Plaintive is claiming collecting tithe is fraud based on a claim that 7 tenants of the religion are false.

In order to prove the fraud case they have to prove the tenants from the Bible, Book of Mormon and other teachings of the Mormon church are in fact false. THAT is a question of religion.

English LAW prevents the Courts from bringing hearing or deciding on questions of religious belief.

Getting the point yet?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

There is only one real reason for organized religion - money.

That's not necessarily a bad thing because people are afraid of death. Religion gives the weak minded the hope and belief that death is not the end, that they'll spend eternity sitting on a soft and cushy cloud.

Handing over your 10% gives "you" a seat on the bus.

 

[Avatar4321]

Other than your hope that the allegations are untrue, kindly set forth what makes this suit frivolous.

1) Genuine beliefs are not fraudlent

No. But bilking people out of money is.



Evidence comes out DURING the trial, not before.



Again, there has been no trial. You have no idea what occurred.



Again, you claimed the suit was frivolous. Often people complaining about each other are all a bit sketchy. Doesn't add up to frivolous.



They aren't challenging religious beliefs. They are challenging alleged financial misfeasance.



6) No one would theologically argue that anyone should pay tithes because of the issues cited in the complaint.

It's a frivolous lawsuit.

They might not prevail. But your wishful thinking doesn't make it frivolous.

Oh and number 7) Im a thinking human being.

Then, as a thinking human being, you should understand that your own biases don't make it a frivolous case. And you should further understand that the allegations should be assessed in a court of law and not based on your personal religious beliefs.

A term like "frivolous case" has a particular legal meaning. That meaning is NOT that the case offends you.

yeah it does have a particular meaning. And since UK law prevents a secular court from determining religious truthfulness, it's dead on arrival. Or did you ignore all the lawyers who commented on the case being frivolous?

Not only that, the argument is stupid since no one has ever encouraged someone to pay tithing because of the Book of Abraham or any of the other reasons he cited. We pay tithing, because it's what God has commanded in Malachi 3 and other scriptures. Something he hasn't alleged is fraudulent.

But hey, why listen to lawyers and reason? He must be guilty because some guy has a stupid argument.

 

[Avatar4321]

So, its not true that religions depend on the tithing of their followers?

Where does their money come from?

This is your chance to educate me ... Or, put another way, stop dancing around and just answer the question.

Where does their money come from?

Trying to change the argument are we?

How they get money to run the organization is irrelevant to your argument that religions exist solely to get money. Religious organizations exist to create a community in which we can worship God together. The fact that we may need money to buy property, construct houses of worship, and power and heat buildings is completely ancillary to the purpose.

Of course, I am confident you already know this which is why you are trying to create this straw man.

Your reasoning is quite circular: Religions exist in order to have a place to have a religion.

And, none of what you wrote changes the fact that without money from followers, there would be no physical plant.

I don't get why some of you are in such denial about that. Or why you feel you must lie about something so utterly obvious.

Oh wait - I forgot you're morm and you learn "lying for the lord" starting at a very early age.

Please feel free to cite where I've lied about anything.

And no my reasoning isn't circular. You'd have to accurate cite my reasoning to make that claim.

Religion exists to worship God. Money has nothing to do with the purposes of religion.

 

[DGS49]

Let's look at the bigger picture.

A religious belief (at least as I understand it) is one that is fundamentally un-provable, and must therefore be accepted (or rejected) according to one's faith.

For example, Christianity teaches that there was a guy who lived in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago, who was the Son of God, and whose mission in life was to redeem mankind for its sins.

True? False? Unknowable.

But look at LDS. The Book of Mormon, upon which LDS is founded, contains hundreds of factual assertions about two separate migrations of Semitic people to the Americas. As a result of countless observations, our knowledge of genetics, and total absense of any Semitic markers in the genetic makeup of our native Americans, is is provable the the BOM is false. And anyone professing the truth of it and soliciting money largely based on promotion of that "truth" is committing fraud. That is the definition of fraud: getting money based on false assertions.

THe person bringing this suit is no crackpot. He was up to his ears in LDS and knows what he's talking about.

I don't think this is frivolous at all.

 

[Christopher]

Let's look at the bigger picture.

A religious belief (at least as I understand it) is one that is fundamentally un-provable, and must therefore be accepted (or rejected) according to one's faith.

For example, Christianity teaches that there was a guy who lived in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago, who was the Son of God, and whose mission in life was to redeem mankind for its sins.

True? False? Unknowable.

But look at LDS. The Book of Mormon, upon which LDS is founded, contains hundreds of factual assertions about two separate migrations of Semitic people to the Americas. As a result of countless observations, our knowledge of genetics, and total absense of any Semitic markers in the genetic makeup of our native Americans, is is provable the the BOM is false. And anyone professing the truth of it and soliciting money largely based on promotion of that "truth" is committing fraud. That is the definition of fraud: getting money based on false assertions.

THe person bringing this suit is no crackpot. He was up to his ears in LDS and knows what he's talking about.

I don't think this is frivolous at all.

If he is not the crackpot you say he is then surely he knows the charges he filed will go nowhere. So, either he is doing it out of spite to embarrass Monson or for attention or both.

I think he is just an ex-Mormon with an axe to grind and a website he wants to increase traffic for.

By the way, this ex-Mormon also makes claims against the Bible, yet is only focused on the Mormon church. From the article in the OP:

Phillips challenges the biblical Book of Genesis, alleging it is fraudulent to assert that "all humans alive today are descended from just two people (Adam and Eve) who lived approximately 6,000 years ago." In a supplemental filing, Phillips argued, "Anthropology, history and DNA studies prove this to be impossible."

 

[Avatar4321]

Not surprisingly, the case was thrown out.

Judge throws out attempt to accuse Mormon church of fraudulent teachings | BreakingNews.ie

The decision:
http://www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/1319054.pdf

Looks like the person bringing the suit is subject to criminal penalty for it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mormon president ordered to appear in British court

... Two summonses direct Thomas S. Monson of Utah, the Church president, to attend a March 14 hearing in the Westminster Magistrates Court of London to answer accusations that key tenets of the LDS faith are untrue and have been used to secure financial contributions....

I'm shocked, I tell you.

Just SHOCKED!

You are shocked that England doesn't have freedom of religion? Why?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm shocked that a cult leader has engaged in illegal behaviour!

I must have missed the part where he engaged in illegal behavior. On the other hand, you missed this.

Legal scholars in England expressed bewilderment at the summonses, saying British law precludes challenges to theological beliefs in secular courts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yeah totally shocking that the court allows a frivolous lawsuit. its not like that's never happened before.

Other than your hope that the allegations are untrue, kindly set forth what makes this suit frivolous.

How about this quote from Luddly's link?

"I'm sitting here with an open mouth," said Neil Addison, a former crown prosecutor and author on religious freedom. "I think the British courts will recoil in horror. This is just using the law to make a show, an anti-Mormon point. And I'm frankly shocked that a magistrate has issued it."

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Omg u r right he must be guilty if they want him in court!!!!!!!!

Who wrote that?

Please link to the post.

Thanks.

You did.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Mormon president ordered to appear in British court

... Two summonses direct Thomas S. Monson of Utah, the Church president, to attend a March 14 hearing in the Westminster Magistrates Court of London to answer accusations that key tenets of the LDS faith are untrue and have been used to secure financial contributions....

I'm shocked, I tell you.

Just SHOCKED!

Gonna follow that trial Was thinking something similar myself, "If G-d doesn't actually exist, then aren't all religions fraudulent?"

Can't help but notice though they're taking on a more cultic type faith and not the 'true' religions like Christianity or Judaism. And you'll NEVER see em try this v Islam.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Specifics and more here,
Head of Mormon church Thomas Monson summoned by British magistrates' court over Adam and Eve teaching - Telegraph

I'm not sure you can extradite someone merely accused of a crime from another country, especially if they've never even been there. Maybe the Mormon President has been to the UK, but if he hasn't it seems unlikely if he refuses the summons anything'd come of it. It's like sueing the Pope. You really expect him to show up to some foreign country's court to face charges and defend himself?

Further thoughts: because we have the 1st Amendment and are free to worship the flying spaghetti monster if we want, just because a country doesn't have such a freedom (Islamic ones for example) doesn't mean our religious people or leaders could be subject to extradition to answer for crimes in other countries. Even if exercising such faiths is illegal there.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Case was thrown out. In England one may not bring suit for religious reasons against religion.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Pity. Woulda been amusing hearing legal arguements challenging matters of faith or doctrine.

 

[Amelia]

Yeah totally shocking that the court allows a frivolous lawsuit. its not like that's never happened before.

Other than your hope that the allegations are untrue, kindly set forth what makes this suit frivolous.

It would be like taking the Pope to court and suing him because you claim Christ didn't actually rise from the dead so the Catholic church is defrauding people by taking collections.