Obama wants to raise the minimum wage when we're on the verge of a second recession?

[Bern80]

You think the people with the money are likely to fix the problem?

Uhh, no. I think I was pretty clear in stating it's not a problem that is their responsibility to fix.

And....you're full of shit with the warm fuzzy bullshit.

The evidence is to the contrary, because that seems to be the single positive characteristic of those policies. On paper and without much in the way of extra thought in terms of how they would play out in practices, that they initially sound like nice, compassionate things to do seems to be their only redeeming quality. Liberals are just plain horse shit problem solvers because all of their solutions are based on emotion which is the enemy of objectivity and reason and it is those later two traits that are best at determining whether something actually works.

 

[dblack]

flag burning

 

[uscitizen]

Mcdonalds profits go up faster in Europe where they are socialist and have a living wage concept for the most part.

Those two things may be occurring at the same time, but is there really a causation component? There is evidence here to the contrary. If you want a real world lesson in supply and demand look no further then the oil boom in North Dakota. They have basically no unemployument. You have McDonalds employees making $12/hr. That's good for flipping burgers. Wages are like that across the board. Everyone must be rich right? WRONG. And this is an example of what happens in the market when wages go up, everything there also costs more. A Big Mac costs more in the ND oil towns than anywhere else in the country. Why? Because the market responded to the increase in incomes. Sellers said 'hey we can charge more for this here because everyone has more disposable income.

Another lesson that liberals don't get about money. Simply throwing money at problems rarely fixes them. That includes the 'problem' of low compensation. You could raise the min wage to $50/hr that isn't going to get rid of poverty because the market is going respond by raising prices on goods in services and the poor will still be poor. They will be poor until they and liberals figure out that more money won't fix the problem. Individuals have to be responsible for fixing their own problems.

as long as everythign stays in perspective there is no problem.
If a Mcdonalds CB costs $10 it is not an issue if we make an avg of $50 or so per hour.

But when wages are essentially flat and food and energy costs keep rising there is a serious problem.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No. This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional. If you want to do business in an exceptional country,

Your contradictions never end do they? Isn't 1% the definition of exception? What seems unfair to you amkes complete sense to the rest of us. Compensation is based on the value of skills, not need as you wish it to be. It's supply and demand like every other free marker commodity. The greater the demand and rarer the skill the greater the compensation for it. As such it should come as no suprise or be considered unfair that the majority of wealth in a free market is going to be held by a relatively small segement of the population. There is no secret to making money. You determine what skills are in demand that are paying what you want to make and you learn it. That isn't an action plan that requires special priveledge to carry out.

you need to pay a decent wage. If you can't make money paying a decent wage, then maybe you're not cut out to be a businessman in an exceptional country.

Define decent. Again you refuse to play the game by free market rules. Who gets to define what an acceptable profit is in this make believe world of yours? How much are you going to allow me to make before telling me how much I have to give of it in compensation? Again you simply don't see the logistical issues of paying people based on need. Shouldn't a couple with kids get paid more than a single person for the same work then? It seems they should under your paradigm. Still sound moral to you? No, but then again your pea brain didn't think of that did it.

The free market has never taken care of the working class. GOVERNMENT has had to fight the greedy free marketeers every step of the way to get every little thing the working class has gotten.

For god's sake we had to fight a bloody civil war to get the capitalists to give up slavery.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So, if the college kid can't persuade someone to pay him your idea of a "minimum" wage, he's not allowed to work?

No. This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional. If you want to do business in an exceptional country,

you need to pay a decent wage. If you can't make money paying a decent wage, then maybe you're not cut out to be a businessman in an exceptional country.

what's the minimum wage you pay YOUR WORKERS?

I always tip the person who makes my sub at Subway a dollar. If it took him 5 minutes to make my sub, then I paid him $12 dollars an hour, plus his regular wage.

 

[dblack]

Should there be a federally mandated minimum tip as well?

 

[Bern80]

Mcdonalds profits go up faster in Europe where they are socialist and have a living wage concept for the most part.

Those two things may be occurring at the same time, but is there really a causation component? There is evidence here to the contrary. If you want a real world lesson in supply and demand look no further then the oil boom in North Dakota. They have basically no unemployument. You have McDonalds employees making $12/hr. That's good for flipping burgers. Wages are like that across the board. Everyone must be rich right? WRONG. And this is an example of what happens in the market when wages go up, everything there also costs more. A Big Mac costs more in the ND oil towns than anywhere else in the country. Why? Because the market responded to the increase in incomes. Sellers said 'hey we can charge more for this here because everyone has more disposable income.

Another lesson that liberals don't get about money. Simply throwing money at problems rarely fixes them. That includes the 'problem' of low compensation. You could raise the min wage to $50/hr that isn't going to get rid of poverty because the market is going respond by raising prices on goods in services and the poor will still be poor. They will be poor until they and liberals figure out that more money won't fix the problem. Individuals have to be responsible for fixing their own problems.

as long as everythign stays in perspective there is no problem.
If a Mcdonalds CB costs $10 it is not an issue if we make an avg of $50 or so per hour.

But when wages are essentially flat and food and energy costs keep rising there is a serious problem.

Then look at why and how wages increase. I can tell you one way reason wages don't increase. They don't increase because people need more to live on. They don't go up because you need more, because, AGAIN, your boss isn't paying you based on what you need to live on. Your boss is paying you based on the market value for your skills. That being the case, have you considered that perhaps the reason wages aren't going up is because people are expecting more for doing the same thing? Or perhaps they believe there is some unwritten rule that value of a skill is not supposed to change over time (at least not go down)?

The problem I see as that some of you seem to think certain variables are supposed to be tied to each other that simply aren't. Case in point your complaint that energy costs are going up, but wages aren't. The unsaid statement your making there is that if your cost of living goes up your wages are supposed to go up. Wages are supposed to go up, not because your work merited more pay, not because you went above and beyond, not because your skill has increased in demand. In your world a person's wage is supposed to go up, simply because you your personal expenses go up. In case some aren't catching on here, your wages aren't going up with your expenses because your personal expenses, wait for it......ARE NOT YOUR BOSS' FUCKING PROBLEM.

 

[Bern80]

Should there be a federally mandated minimum tip as well?

Your damn right there should. There oughta be lots of them actually. The should provide tips every night.

Tips like:

Your boss is not responsible for your living expenses.

and

You are responsible for your own outcomes. Not your employer.

Those are some good tips. The sooner people live by them the better off every one will be.

 

[theliq]

What planet do you live on where you believe this to be a good idea?

Beyond that when I take on commercial work I often have to hire temporary help. Help that picks up debris or does simple meanial tasks. Definitely not worthy of the 20+ dollar an hour cost it would end up being going though a temp agency. I simply wouldnt hire while others would resort to illegal under the table practices.

Well a 30% rise of virtually NOTHING,IS STILL VIRTUALLY NOTHING......Tax everyone who earns over $120,000 more,but not Seniors on Super or Pensions

steve and Companies that Tax Dodge

 

[Charles_Main]

What planet do you live on where you believe this to be a good idea?

Beyond that when I take on commercial work I often have to hire temporary help. Help that picks up debris or does simple meanial tasks. Definitely not worthy of the 20+ dollar an hour cost it would end up being going though a temp agency. I simply wouldnt hire while others would resort to illegal under the table practices.

All this will mean is less entry level jobs available, and high cost of goods. People are not suppose to be trying to live on Minimum Wage jobs. they are suppose to be entry level, starting jobs. The solution is not raising the minimum wage, it's creating more better paying jobs for people to move into, and out of Minimum Wage jobs, so those jobs can be filled by the next group of people entering the work force.

But why argue logic when you can just feel good by raising the minimum wage, and ignore the job losses, and rising prices it causes.

 

[Bern80]

The free market has never taken care of the working class. GOVERNMENT has had to fight the greedy free marketeers every step of the way to get every little thing the working class has gotten.

Not a single solitary word of the above is observably true. Again, you're making a false presumption. A system can not fail at something it was never intended to provide and the purpose of the free market has never been to supply people with enough to live on. It's simple intent was for parties to be able to make exchanges freely under conditions they both agree on. And let's not pretend the working class isn't greedy too. Obviously they want more money just as much as the rich. There just not willing to go through what it takes to acquire it. They want the same for less effort. And no the government has not had to fight for everything for the working class. If that were true every company would simply pay minimum wage, because that is all government requires of them. And where is the law that companies must provide paid vacation, matching 401k plans?

For god's sake we had to fight a bloody civil war to get the capitalists to give up slavery.

The civil war had very little to do with slavery. Go back to school take some econ and history classes.

 

[dblack]

Should there be a federally mandated minimum tip as well?

Your damn right there should. There oughta be lots of them actually. The should provide tips every night.

Tips like: ....

It's a serious question. I fail to see any difference, in principle, between mandatory minimum wages and mandatory minimum tips. Or for that matter, federally dictated prices in all markets. Clearly we, as a free society, can't be trusted to determine what things are worth.

 

[Old Rocks]

What planet do you live on where you believe this to be a good idea?

Beyond that when I take on commercial work I often have to hire temporary help. Help that picks up debris or does simple meanial tasks. Definitely not worthy of the 20+ dollar an hour cost it would end up being going though a temp agency. I simply wouldnt hire while others would resort to illegal under the table practices.

Really? Are you hoping real hard that the economy does not continue to grow? For the economy is growing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mcdonalds profits go up faster in Europe where they are socialist and have a living wage concept for the most part.

Harlem is in Europe?

Who knew?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Care to comment on how McDonalds makes money in countrys who have much higher minimum wage than we do?

They charge higher prices and pay less in taxes, why do you ask?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well first off it's no "excuse". That's basically the way it is. Secondly..when you start with the "you have no brains" meme..it basically means that you are projecting.

It is an excuse and easily proved to be so. If it were true then there shouldn't be anyone who has come from nothing who has gained considerable wealth. We know that not to be the case. It is self serving excuse that feeds on itself. You can always fall back on 'well I wasn't born into money, that's why I don't have any'. It's a hell of a lot easier then taking a good hard look at yourself and determining the role that you've played in your outcomes.

Third..most of "asia" is just developing...and it really depends on where you are talking about. Salaries in Japan and Korea are pretty high. Same with Taiwan.

China? Not so much. But they are increasing. Same with India.


And it's not about being "broken hearted", it's about being smart. In an economy based on consumerism..it makes no sense whatsoever to concentrate wealth into a few hands.

History also shows the folly of that.

For you liberals it most certainly is about being broken hearted. Policy based on emotion rather than objective reason is the defining characteristic of liberalism. Create policy that gives a warm fuzzy feeling. Just give people more money, just give them health care, just take away their guns. Let's not think a little harder about whether any of those things are really in a person's best interest. No it doesn't make sense for money to get concentrated onto a smaller and smaller minority, but why is it someone elses responsibility to fix that and not yours? Why is it your bosses responsibility to simply give you what you say you need and not your responsibility to attain the skills that achieve that?

You think the people with the money are likely to fix the problem?

And....you're full of shit with the warm fuzzy bullshit.

That is a strange thing for someone say when you factor in the fact that they think the government is going to solve the problem. You are aware that, when push comes to shove, the government has more money than anyone, and that it is, essentially, people.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mcdonalds profits go up faster in Europe where they are socialist and have a living wage concept for the most part.

Those two things may be occurring at the same time, but is there really a causation component? There is evidence here to the contrary. If you want a real world lesson in supply and demand look no further then the oil boom in North Dakota. They have basically no unemployument. You have McDonalds employees making $12/hr. That's good for flipping burgers. Wages are like that across the board. Everyone must be rich right? WRONG. And this is an example of what happens in the market when wages go up, everything there also costs more. A Big Mac costs more in the ND oil towns than anywhere else in the country. Why? Because the market responded to the increase in incomes. Sellers said 'hey we can charge more for this here because everyone has more disposable income.

Another lesson that liberals don't get about money. Simply throwing money at problems rarely fixes them. That includes the 'problem' of low compensation. You could raise the min wage to $50/hr that isn't going to get rid of poverty because the market is going respond by raising prices on goods in services and the poor will still be poor. They will be poor until they and liberals figure out that more money won't fix the problem. Individuals have to be responsible for fixing their own problems.

as long as everythign stays in perspective there is no problem.
If a Mcdonalds CB costs $10 it is not an issue if we make an avg of $50 or so per hour.

But when wages are essentially flat and food and energy costs keep rising there is a serious problem.

I get it now, Obama wants to raise the minimum wage so nobody notices how much his policies cost them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No. This is America. We're supposed to be exceptional. If you want to do business in an exceptional country,

Your contradictions never end do they? Isn't 1% the definition of exception? What seems unfair to you amkes complete sense to the rest of us. Compensation is based on the value of skills, not need as you wish it to be. It's supply and demand like every other free marker commodity. The greater the demand and rarer the skill the greater the compensation for it. As such it should come as no suprise or be considered unfair that the majority of wealth in a free market is going to be held by a relatively small segement of the population. There is no secret to making money. You determine what skills are in demand that are paying what you want to make and you learn it. That isn't an action plan that requires special priveledge to carry out.

you need to pay a decent wage. If you can't make money paying a decent wage, then maybe you're not cut out to be a businessman in an exceptional country.

Define decent. Again you refuse to play the game by free market rules. Who gets to define what an acceptable profit is in this make believe world of yours? How much are you going to allow me to make before telling me how much I have to give of it in compensation? Again you simply don't see the logistical issues of paying people based on need. Shouldn't a couple with kids get paid more than a single person for the same work then? It seems they should under your paradigm. Still sound moral to you? No, but then again your pea brain didn't think of that did it.

The free market has never taken care of the working class. GOVERNMENT has had to fight the greedy free marketeers every step of the way to get every little thing the working class has gotten.

For god's sake we had to fight a bloody civil war to get the capitalists to give up slavery.

Can you explain how people managed to form unions and protect their rights when the government was working to stop them if the only possible way for them to get help is wait for the government to help? Did you sleep through history class?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What planet do you live on where you believe this to be a good idea?

Beyond that when I take on commercial work I often have to hire temporary help. Help that picks up debris or does simple meanial tasks. Definitely not worthy of the 20+ dollar an hour cost it would end up being going though a temp agency. I simply wouldnt hire while others would resort to illegal under the table practices.

Really? Are you hoping real hard that the economy does not continue to grow? For the economy is growing.

Funny, the government insist that the economy contracted last quarter.

 

[Sallow]

Again you make a whole lot of wide sweeping generalizations to essentially justify some pretty stupid policy. You first assumption is that if you are poor..you've done something wrong. Conversely, if you are rich, you've done something right. That falls neatly, by the way, into the conservative worldview, which dictates that the powerful, are powerful, because of an edict of a higher power..namely a god. Real life isn't like that.

What stupid policy? That people be paid what they're worth? And yes that is my view that you've done something wrong if you don't merit pay above minimum wage. You hold the opposite view however. That people are not responsible for their outcomes. That the things they do or don't do don't have consequences. We know that to be observably false. And not in small numbers, that is true for the majority of people in this country. That argument has nothing to do with God. That statement fits better into your argument than mine. Your the one that believes people can't be responsible for their outcomes. So if the individual isn't responsible for it, it must be God who's deciding who fails and who succeeds right? I'm arguing that it's the individual that determines their outcomes, not God.

And creating policy that flatens out "classes" has been one of the focal points of this country since it's inception. People who came to this country and started, did so, because they rejected the notion of royalty and aristocracy. And while you may "agree" that it is not a good idea to concentrate wealth, as by the did most of the founders, you reject each and every remedy to that. Which basically means..you really don't buy into that idea.

I have proposed a remedy to it. You just don't like it because it's hard. It requires self motivation. It requires self accountability. Character traits you liberals loathe. The solution is that people adapt. Again this isn't a rocket science problem or solution and it does in fact work. If you want more money find out what skills are demand that pay that money. Learn it and do it.

Well first off, no..I do believe that people can be responsible for their own outcomes. That's what Democracy is all about. People electing other people to run government in a way that suits their views, aspirations and desires. People also get educated and work hard. That's actually what's been going on in this country. People HAVE been working very hard. Americans are the most productive people on the planet. But because of conservative policies..they haven't been sharing in the profits. You guys have crushed every means to remedy that too. Unions? They are almost a thing of the past. And they were almost completely responsible for social mobility in this country. You guys fight labor laws. You hate OSHA. Curtail education. But on the plus side..you folks happily shovel tax payer money at rich guys..while they pay themselves 400 or more times what average folks make. Additionally they have lobbyists who basically have the ear of the people running government. Who make the laws that "ta-da" keep these guys swimming in tax payer funding.

And you guys are "funny" about "demand". You are shipping jobs overseas and helping the folks that do that with all sorts of legal protections and tax breaks. The Right to Work thing is fun too.

The type of "adaptation" you folks are looking for is a race to the bottom for the average joe and setting up the new aristocracy.

No thanks.