Obama willing to go "more than half-way" on Florida and Michigan

[Ravi]

You lying sack of you know what!

This is what happens when you start thinking you know what I think.

 

[manifold]

This is what happens when you start thinking you know what I think.

In this case, I think I actually know better than you. Sometimes we don't see ourselves as clearly as others may.

 

[ReillyT]

Obama said that he got permission from Sc DEM PARTY, who he signed a pledge with, to run the ads in Florida before their primary....

Well, it actually says that he consulted with the Chair of the SC DNC, and that she didn't think this violated the pledge. I don't see that being a big deal.

Obama is the ONLY candidate to break his pledge and run his national ads before the florida and michigan primaries.

He was behind in many states with Super Tuesday coming up. I can see why he would want to make a national buy.

Obama did NOT go to the DNC for permission when the RULES clearly state that this would be breaking their rules...

Looks like Obama cheated, or tried to sweet talk his way thru the rules, doesn't it? I am not imagining this am I?

NO OTHER CANDIDATE, put their national campaign ads in the schedule before the rules allowed for florida and michigan, other than Obama...

He had more money, and more to gain from a nationwide buy.

Also, his team was counting on our ignorance on saying his national ads had to run in all states, which is SIMPLY NOT TRUE, he could have made a state by state buy with cnn and msnbc, I have done it many a time...yes, it takes a little more work to set it up that way, but not enough extra work that would have prohibited them to do it this way...

Okay Care. I see no reason to quibble about this because I don't see how it is important. Fine. I am willing just to accept that he violated the rule. I am not sold on this point, but for the sake argument, let's assume that he did. So what? First, did this likely make much of a difference in the Florida vote? I doubt it, but who knows. Is the DNC going to punish him for this? It is probably in their power, but they won't and everyone knows this.

Where does that leave us? Florida will still probably count for 50% and it won't make a dent in the delegate count. Michigan will probably count the same (which, frankly, I think is insane), but it won't be enough either. There you have it. Game over.

 

[ReillyT]

Sorry, I actually meant to the voters that voted for either Hillary or Obama.

Okay. Unfair to the voters I concede. That is the fuckup of the legislatures of the states and the DNC. Neither candidate can really be blamed for that one.

 

[Ravi]

In this case, I think I actually know better than you. Sometimes we don't see ourselves as clearly as others may.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[ReillyT]

WHAT RULE in the DNC Primary rules allowed the rules and bylaws committee to strip Florida and michigan of all of their delegates???

I have read the whole rule book and there is nothing that i have seen that allowed this committee to do such....the only rule that i have seen is the rule that says these states SHALL have their delegates cut in half....

Did the bylaws committee actually break their OWN RULES?

Man oh man, this thing is so messed up....

Howard Dean really needs to be fired, he showed NO LEADERSHIP in this situation and has HURT the democratic party more than he helped it, with what is going on in this fiasco....imo!

care

I doubt they broke their own rules, but it is possible. In any event, half of the delegates will probably be restored, and Clinton (who is behind) will reap some benefit, so in this case, I don't see much of an issue.

 

[Care4all]

what about those that stayed home cause they were told the votes wouldnt be counting...

How are you going to reinfranchise those cats.. do you just tell them that they are shit out of luck.. ooops, sorry..

they were ALL TOLD to come out and vote.

The parties had a major campaign to go out and vote, regardless of what national party was saying that their voices WOULD BE HEARD....

all news in their states emphasized going out to vote...

Anyone that was going to vote, voted Jeepers...they had record numbers at their primaries...the message was out that they would be heard...and counted.

i read the democratic party's sites in these states before their primaries, they had a HUGE EFFORT telling all voters to get out and vote and that their vote would count to determine the Presidency.

 

[manifold]

Keep telling yourself that.

Plagiarist.

 

[Care4all]

Well, it actually says that he consulted with the Chair of the SC DNC, and that she didn't think this violated the pledge. I don't see that being a big deal.



He was behind in many states with Super Tuesday coming up. I can see why he would want to make a national buy.



He had more money, and more to gain from a nationwide buy.



Okay Care. I see no reason to quibble about this because I don't see how it is important. Fine. I am willing just to accept that he violated the rule. I am not sold on this point, but for the sake argument, let's assume that he did. So what? First, did this likely make much of a difference in the Florida vote? I doubt it, but who knows. Is the DNC going to punish him for this? It is probably in their power, but they won't and everyone knows this.

Where does that leave us? Florida will still probably count for 50% and it won't make a dent in the delegate count. Michigan will probably count the same (which, frankly, I think is insane), but it won't be enough either. There you have it. Game over.

If he was punished as the rules state, for breaking their rule on running ANY PAID campaign ads there, THEN he would lose his delegates for the States and Hillary would still get all of hers...that would put her in the legitimate, TRUE BY THE RULES, lead....i believe... when the florida and michigan delegates are reinstated by half...

this makes this a horserace again, and a Super Delegate fight, with their votes as the final decision makers i would suppose?

 

[Ravi]

Okay. Unfair to the voters I concede. That is the fuckup of the legislatures of the states and the DNC. Neither candidate can really be blamed for that one.

No they can't. But I just thought I'd let you know that people will hold it against Obama. It's just human nature.

Especially since he did speak to the press.

 

[Ravi]

Plagiarist.

YOU made that up?

Doubtful.

 

[ReillyT]

If he was punished as the rules state, for breaking their rule on running ANY PAID campaign ads there, THEN he would lose his delegates for the States and Hillary would still get all of hers...that would put her in the legitimate, TRUE BY THE RULES, lead....i believe... when the florida and michigan delegates are reinstated by half...

this makes this a horserace again, and a Super Delegate fight, with their votes as the final decision makers i would suppose?

Well, it would only apply to Florida I believe. I don't think that the ads ran in Michigan. However, it doesn't matter. He will not be penalized. Both states will probably get 50% of the delegates seated, with the uncommitted Michigan voters going to Obama. I don't think this is a particularly fair way to handle this, but Solomon would be proud. It is what it is. I just don't see any point blaming Clinton or Obama for any of this. They are both working with the system as much as they can to get as many delegates as they can.

 

[Care4all]

Well, it would only apply to Florida I believe. I don't think that the ads ran in Michigan. However, it doesn't matter. He will not be penalized. Both states will probably get 50% of the delegates seated, with the uncommitted Michigan voters going to Obama. I don't think this is a particularly fair way to handle this, but Solomon would be proud. It is what it is. I just don't see any point blaming Clinton or Obama for any of this. They are both working with the system as much as they can to get as many delegates as they can.

why won't the rule be followed, would they have followed it if it were the Hillary camp breaking the rule......I'll answer ...OF COURSE!

the Media and Obama camp would have been ALL OVER IT imo!!!! Calling Hillary a cheater from here to kingdom come!!

The rules are the rules as the Obama side has been touting and if he did break them, in both Michigan and Florida....of running an ad before they were permitted by the dnc, then follow the rules damnit, things should not be changed MIDSTREAM....

(as the Obamaites have been saying about Hillary, when it turns out, she IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE, left in the race that did NOT break the rules.

And why should obama get the votes casted for edwards in Michigan? That is unfair too ya know, and Hillary nor the rules made him and his buddy edwards, take their names off the ballot....they did this all on their own for their own political purposes, as stated previously.

And yes, the Obama camp is "playing dumb" when they say they got permission from SC, well the SC Dems have nothing at all to do with breaking the DNC RULES...., that was a pledge the candidates made to them separately....and even in that, there was no rule to take his name off the ballot....

I am sorry i keep arguing these points, but it turns out, with all things, the Devil is in the detail...

care

 

[ReillyT]

why won't the rule be followed, would they have followed it if it were the Hillary camp breaking the rule......I'll answer ...OF COURSE!

the Media and Obama camp would have been ALL OVER IT imo!!!! Calling Hillary a cheater from here to kingdom come!!

The rules are the rules as the Obama side has been touting and if he did break them, in both Michigan and Florida....of running an ad before they were permitted by the dnc, then follow the rules damnit, things should not be changed MIDSTREAM....

(as the Obamaites have been saying about Hillary, when it turns out, she IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE, left in the race that did NOT break the rules.

And why should obama get the votes casted for edwards in Michigan? That is unfair too ya know, and Hillary nor the rules made him and his buddy edwards, take their names off the ballot....they did this all on their own for their own political purposes, as stated previously.

And yes, the Obama camp is "playing dumb" when they say they got permission from SC, well the SC Dems have nothing at all to do with breaking the DNC RULES...., that was a pledge the candidates made to them separately....and even in that, there was no rule to take his name off the ballot....

I am sorry i keep arguing these points, but it turns out, with all things, the Devil is in the detail...

care

First, I don't think it is clear that any rules were broken.

Second, if Clinton had done the same thing, I expect that the DNC wouldn't take any action in that case either. The DNC doesn't want to change the expected outcome due to a technical violation that likely had no effect on the vote.

Finally, I don't think Obama should get any votes from Michigan. Only one name was on the ballot. I don't think it can be called a fair primary by any stretch of the imagination. No one should get votes from Michigan, or perhaps the delegates should be allotted according to current polling.

 

[Steerpike]

Of course, the Democrat party is a private organization. They can choose a nominee by letting a chimp pull names out of a hat if they want to. So there isn't much room for arguing with whatever the DNC decides to do.

 

[ReillyT]

Of course, the Democrat party is a private organization. They can choose a nominee by letting a chimp pull names out of a hat if they want to. So there isn't much room for arguing with whatever the DNC decides to do.

True.

 

[Care4all]

First, I don't think it is clear that any rules were broken.

Second, if Clinton had done the same thing, I expect that the DNC wouldn't take any action in that case either. The DNC doesn't want to change the expected outcome due to a technical violation that likely had no effect on the vote.

Finally, I don't think Obama should get any votes from Michigan. Only one name was on the ballot. I don't think it can be called a fair primary by any stretch of the imagination. No one should get votes from Michigan, or perhaps the delegates should be allotted according to current polling.

Actually it would be very UNFAIR to not give Hillary the delegates that she earned by the voters voting for her...

And I repeat, OBAMA CHOSE to take his name off this primary in Michigan for his OWN POLITICAL POSTURING, there was no rule for him to do such....

Hillary and the voters of Michigan should not be punished for what Obama as a candidate CHOSE to do...

your way, is extremely unfair to Hillary, who got actual votes that need to be represented.

The DNC RULES were writen in the year 2006 for this 2008 primary, he SHOULD HAVE READ THEM...

And as far as the ad in florida and michigan...

I can assure you that people do not run ads and spend the boocoos and boocoos of money for them, if they DID NOT KNOW that advertising GIVES RESULTS....

His ads and mini press meet, both broke the rules and both will go unsanctioned.... by the good ole boys club of the DNC....I don't see that as playing fair or within our own private party rules....


And btw, we are the private party...we the Democratic member formed the party...there is no they against us, we members are the they, which the committees are suppose to represent, I thought?

care

 

[Jon]

No one should get votes from Michigan, or perhaps the delegates should be allotted according to current polling.

If that's the case, there should be revotes in all the states that voted before Edwards, Kucinich, and Gravel dropped out. It's arguable that Clinton or Obama may have received more votes if those names were on the ballot.

Get real, fella. Polls are just polls, and have nothing to do with actual votes. One person can take 15 different polls and skew the numbers, but they can only vote once. Votes are what count.

 

[Steerpike]

And btw, we are the private party...we the Democratic member formed the party...there is no they against us, we members are the they, which the committees are suppose to represent, I thought?

care

The Dems put in Super Delegates precisely so they wouldn't be stuck with the decisions of you voting members of the party

 

[Jon]

The Dems put in Super Delegates precisely so they wouldn't be stuck with the decisions of you voting members of the party

Precisely the reason the electoral college was formed, too. Politicians used to not care what certain people thought. They gave favor to larger states, which used to mean richer, whiter people, and they wanted those voices heard more.