OMG! I like Bernie's idea for free college, with a few tweeks...

[DJT for Life]

There is actually a 5th flaw in all of their plans...

They all keep telling folks they will eliminate student debt and make college tuition free. I just want to know who is going to foot the
bill for books, room and board?

The same people that foot the bill for roads, police, fire department, k-12 education...etc...etc...

They shouldn't be paying for someones education. You know that.

So, you are against all public education including k-12?

Actually, the thread has spun out of control.

A debate/argument is trying to be waged on incomplete thoughts and information.

It ain't as simple as the Dem politicians are trying to make it out to be. K-12 does not involve tuition fees. It does not involve
room and board (Maybe lunch money). With the exception of some work books, the text books are "loaned to the students. The only costs
to the parents, save, Ins for extracurricular activities and student fees for a field trip, are gathered thru property taxes and the occasional
school tax. Only students living in that county are allowed to attend that public school. Out-of-County students do not attend a public
school, let alone out-of-state students. So what are the rules gonna be? What are the costs going to be? How is a Federal Tax
on Wall Street going to be distributed? How is the student population going to be capped? What are the educational requirements
going to be for admission?

My only point I attempted to make is it is a pipe dream that students will not have to borrow money. The Dems are saying
free "TUITION." There is a reason for being that specific....the students will have debt for room, board and books and that ain't
cheap either.

If somebody really wanted to be innovative they would add a 13th and 14th grade to High School, which would serve as
the first two years of college. (Liberal Arts portion of a student's education) It wouldn't be any different than the current Jr-Sr High School.
8th graders complete their Middle School in the same buildings with the same teachers that they will attend High School in.
Just add another building and 10 or 20 more teachers.

But one way or another they will have to cap costs. The teacher's unions have taken all the money away from the students
to pay their increased salaries. You'd have to cap that.

It's fun to argue but a free college education is never going to happen for the general, average student.

A couple of points for you to consider:
1. Local school districts are strapped for cash. So the 13th & 14th grades, even if limited to the college kids is unaffordable for most.
2. The transaction tax generates a pile of money from those who will not miss it. Using it to eliminate or reduce student loans, or pay for job training, is a good idea.
3. Agree need to cap costs for college. Maybe putting those endowment funds to use would help? Colleges should fund 1/3 of the student's loans, so they have skin in the game if the kid can't finish, or can't find a good job. i.e. stop giving useless degrees with mega-loans.

The 13trh and 14th grade would be far cheaper than free tuition for everybody. Yes, of course Counties are strapped for money and
nobody in the Country is gonna wanna see their property taxes doubled. However, footing the bill for college education to students, many
of which cannot cross a roadway without getting hit by a car, is a losing and expensive proposition.

"Job Training is a waste of money." VoTech is the proper route. But even with VoTech grrads, the company or firm that hires them will
train them to apply their skills like that company wants them to do..

Your last point touches on many gripes that I have always had. One is incompetent "teachers." A student, at any level is their to learn.
A teacher that has half of his class fail or make sub-standard grades isn't a tough teacher, he/she is an incompetent teacher. They,
thru the grades of their students prove that they cann ot get their message across/connect with their students.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Cancel student loan debt so the banks can get their money back faster and then the soylennials can have more money to pay taxes so we can have more money to give the banks when they need another bail out

Well we could cut off all welfare, that not only would balance the budget, but put more people to work, thus putting more taxes into the government, so they could spend it on frivolous shit, because it is the way of this sorry ass bloated government. Drain the swamp!!!

 

[busybee01]

There already is a program in place called the Income Based Repayment Plan. Payments are based on your income and after 20 years, anything left is forgiven. The rub is that it is considered income by the IRS. That needs to be fixed.

 

[FA_Q2]

Yes, it is where we have stopped and to change that there needs to be a damn solid reason for it.

I would disagree. If the only reason we do it that way is because we always have, then that is a terrible reason for doing it that way.

If the only reason to change it is because we have always done it that way it is a terrible reason for changing it.

Because we have done it that way is not a reason to keep it the same. Because it is somewhat functional is an extremely good reason to keep it that way without a damn good reason to change it. almost all grand scale ideas are terrible and will fail. When you take hundreds of years exploring a concept and work out a functional program you don't throw it out on a whim because it feels right. If you want to experiment then the state level is where that is done, has been done several times and, again, almost all of those were abject failures.

So yes, gator, the way things are is a reasonable place to start and to move off of that you need a powerful reason to drastically change it. Extending school by another 20-40% for education that is blatantly not necessary for all Americans is a pretty drastic change.

Which came first? Do we view 18 as an adult because that is when they finish "school" or do we did we plan school so they would finish as they became "adults"?

Not relevant unless you are going to challenge 18 as a reasonable place to start adulthood and that is an underlying reason to adjust our K-12 system.

 

[basquebromance]

if billionaires can pay off their yachts, students should be able to pay their student debts

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Not relevant unless you are going to challenge 18 as a reasonable place to start adulthood and that is an underlying reason to adjust our K-12 system.

seems that is already happening. Being 18 ain't what it used to be. Right now all being 18 gives you is the right to vote and sign contracts legally. Some states are now moving the "smoking age" to 21. There has been talk of moving the voting age to 21.

Clearly we as a society do not really think that 18 year olds are adults, since we limit so much of what they can do legally

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

if billionaires can pay off their yachts, students should be able to pay their student debts

You are right, so instead of the students taking bullshit classes that get them a job at Starbucks, maybe the colleges should be held accountable for classes that will actually have the student succeed in life, instead of sucking dicks in life.

 

[Cellblock2429]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

/----/ C: None of the above.

 

[Cellblock2429]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

There is actually a 5th flaw in all of their plans...

They all keep telling folks they will eliminate student debt and make college tuition free. I just want to know who is going to foot the
bill for books, room and board?

/----/ "who is going to foot the bill for books, room and board?"
Well, that's next on the Lib agenda.

 

[kyzr]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

/----/ C: None of the above.

So there is no problem with student debt, college costs, and job training looking forward?
Robotics won't affect the job market? Everything's fine, no worries, okay...

 

[Cellblock2429]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

There is actually a 5th flaw in all of their plans...

They all keep telling folks they will eliminate student debt and make college tuition free. I just want to know who is going to foot the
bill for books, room and board?

The same people that foot the bill for roads, police, fire department, k-12 education...etc...etc...

Other people's kid's education isn't my responsibility

and yet you pay for it anyhow. how do you think the schools in your local area are funded..you are paying for them like everyone else.

But you are not paying for books, room and board. (You do in High School, but that is just books)

/----/ Don't forget free meals and in some cities, free three meals a day during the summer.

 

[Dragonlady]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

You do understand that "means testing" and the "grade testing" adds enormous costs to the administration of the program. Right wingers are HUGE on means testing, but the costs of the additional staff and the process often balloon the costs of the program.

Often the costs of the means test are greater than the benefit received, basically doubling the costs of the program. Governments have found that it is often cheaper to cover ALL citizens, even those of means, than the increased costs of administering and evaluating who qualifies and who doesn't.

 

[Obiwan]

Will Bernie pay his "fair share"???

 

[rightwinger]

What about people who don't go to College?

Can they borrow $100k and not pay it back?

Can they attend a 2 year fuck-fest, all expenses paid?

dimocrap scum are doing a fantastic job of creating even more division in this Country.

If you don’t go to college that is your choice
If you want to, the opportunity is there

 

[rightwinger]

I support a small tax on stock and real estate transactions
Maybe one percent

How is this any different than any other sales tax?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Not relevant unless you are going to challenge 18 as a reasonable place to start adulthood and that is an underlying reason to adjust our K-12 system.

seems that is already happening. Being 18 ain't what it used to be. Right now all being 18 gives you is the right to vote and sign contracts legally. Some states are now moving the "smoking age" to 21. There has been talk of moving the voting age to 21.

Clearly we as a society do not really think that 18 year olds are adults, since we limit so much of what they can do legally

There has been talk of moving the voting age to 21.

Dems would never amend the Constitution to raise the voting age.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Actually.... the biggest flaw in Bernie Babys plan is staring us right in the face....
It is merit based. and will therefore have all kinds of "allowances" and affirmative-action'isk attached to it that it will basically change nothing.
As a for instance, Indianapolis Ivy tech has over 70% of students on federal aid. Their graduation rate is 16%. You read that right.
The student population is overwhelmingly minority.
You think for one minute Bernie Baby is going to kick these black kids out of college???

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Like most of Bernie's "plans".... they will never happen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I support a small tax on stock and real estate transactions
Maybe one percent

How is this any different than any other sales tax?

If would cost jobs and raise a small fraction of what you predict.

 

[kyzr]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

You do understand that "means testing" and the "grade testing" adds enormous costs to the administration of the program. Right wingers are HUGE on means testing, but the costs of the additional staff and the process often balloon the costs of the program.

Often the costs of the means test are greater than the benefit received, basically doubling the costs of the program. Governments have found that it is often cheaper to cover ALL citizens, even those of means, than the increased costs of administering and evaluating who qualifies and who doesn't.

OK, no means testing. Grade testing can be done by the colleges. Just talking, if the 1st two years are "free" to all, but the 2nd two years are "tuition free" for the qualified students who want to pursue a 4-year degree, with the colleges funding 1/4 or so of any student loans so they have skin in the game. Grad school is paid for by the students except needed professions like medical professions. Somehow try to match the students to the job needs better than now.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I actually like the funding mechanism for Bernie's "free college" plan, but with a few tweaks...
Sanders Panders: Four Flaws In Bernie Sanders' Higher Education Plan

1. Lets say that the 1st 2-years of college, including community colleges and trade schools are free, with an emphasis on job training for filling real jobs that need workers.

2. The 2nd 2-years funding are "means tested" and also "grade tested" so that marginal students are weeded out and the wealthy don't need help. Also, "careers that are needed" get more funding than careers that have poor job prospects.

3. Grad school funding is for the brightest and filling needed jobs, such as doctors.

4. The colleges need to control costs and do not get funding for any students that flunk out. Price controls may need to be imposed so that colleges use their "endowment funds" to help students.

What's the downside? Hopefully stopping the high speed traders that don't "invest" but simply skim money from our 401k's and IRA's.

You do understand that "means testing" and the "grade testing" adds enormous costs to the administration of the program. Right wingers are HUGE on means testing, but the costs of the additional staff and the process often balloon the costs of the program.

Often the costs of the means test are greater than the benefit received, basically doubling the costs of the program. Governments have found that it is often cheaper to cover ALL citizens, even those of means, than the increased costs of administering and evaluating who qualifies and who doesn't.

OK, no means testing. Grade testing can be done by the colleges. Just talking, if the 1st two years are "free" to all, but the 2nd two years are "tuition free" for the qualified students who want to pursue a 4-year degree, with the colleges funding 1/4 or so of any student loans so they have skin in the game. Grad school is paid for by the students except needed professions like medical professions. Somehow try to match the students to the job needs better than now.

See post #137