Over 200 killed in Israeli raid to free 4 hostages.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Russia: 6 terrorists killed during the release of 2 hostages

Israel: 800 civilians killed during the release of 4 hostages

INCIDENT SUMMARY:​

10/23/2002: Forty Chechen rebels attacked Dubrovka Theater in Moscow, Russia and took 912 hostages. The assailants demanded a complete pullout of all Russian military forces from Chechnya in exchange for the release of the hostages. The siege lasted until 26 October 2002, when Russian special forces filled the building with an unidentified gas intended to subdue the perpetrators. The gas killed all 40 perpetrators and 125 hostages. Five additional hostages were killed by the attackers during a shoot-out.

 

[Shusha]

Are you including the West Bank in Israel “proper”?

No. The West Bank is a whole other thing and by far the most complicated to solve.

Palestinians distrust and hate the Jews, and see them as murderous occupiers.

Jews distrust and hate Palestinians and see them as violent killers who will keep trying to kill no matter what they do.

Yes. But not within Israel. Israeli Arabs have not been radicalized. Israeli Arabs understand the deep connection of the Jewish people to the land. Israeli Arabs are proud to be Israeli. They share a country. (No, it's not perfect. Yes, there is discrimination. Yes, there is voluntary cultural segregation.)

The Palestinians don’t want to share Gaza with Jews.

The Palestinians don't want to share any of the territory. They are going to have to get over that.

The Jews don’t want to share Gaza with Palestinians.

I'm not certain this is true. IF the security concerns could be addressed.

I do believe that would go a long ways (maybe not the Pride parade) … and this is also why I place so much value on having a plan for when the war ends that has multi-national support and funding to rebuild. A Marshall plan of sorts.

I really think the true path to peace, the only true path, is for Jews and Arabs to live together. It is much harder to demonize one another when you are neighbors. This is literally how you build tolerance instead of radicalization. It's hard for a child to see his best school buddy as a something evil that needs to be killed. This is the only real solution. The problem is getting from here to there.

 

[Shusha]

Russia: 6 terrorists killed during the release of 2 hostages

Israel: 800 civilians killed during the release of 4 hostages

Ridiculous comparison. Specifically, due to the proximity of "civilians" in Gaza, many with RPGs and AK47s.

 

[Shusha]

If a choice was presented now?

#1 is both unlikely and unrealistic, Israel would not accept it.

#3 similarly unrealistic because sovereignty under another will not confer autonomy, citizenship or equality of rights. The Palestinians would not accept that.

It is hard to say. I think 2 offers the best potential for them and for Israel long term.

I agree that #1 is unrealistic and that Israel wouldn't accept it post October 7. I don't think the people of Gaza would accept it either, as it would require them to voluntarily abandon any idea of a "Greater Palestine". It is essentially what the experiment was for the past 20 years and that isn't going well for anyone.

I would not be so quick to dismiss #3, though. I'm not entirely convinced that the people of Gaza need or want an independent and sovereign country. Citizenship of some State, equality of rights, for sure. But why not under another sovereign that could offer economic health and structure? It could be some sort provincial system with some powers under a Gaza government, and some powers assigned to the State.

The advantage of #3 over #2 is the investment of the "parent" sovereign, as opposed to a mandate where the parent will lose interest if it becomes too difficult (waves at Britain).

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Russia: 6 terrorists killed during the release of 2 hostages

Israel: 800 civilians killed during the release of 4 hostages

Ringo: Pulls numbers right out of his ass

 

[Coyote]

No. The West Bank is a whole other thing and by far the most complicated to solve.

Yes. But not within Israel. Israeli Arabs have not been radicalized. Israeli Arabs understand the deep connection of the Jewish people to the land. Israeli Arabs are proud to be Israeli. They share a country. (No, it's not perfect. Yes, there is discrimination. Yes, there is voluntary cultural segregation.)

When you talk about “radicalized” what do you mean?

The Palestinians don't want to share any of the territory. They are going to have to get over that.

That is debatable.

A 2-state solution, by definition, means sharing the real estate through dividing it, no one gets it all so I think measuring the support for it is probably the best way we have to get some idea of the sentiments.

Interesting March 2024:
Support for “armed struggle” dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%.

This is colored by the ongoing war but there have been trends it was steadily trending upwards and then downwards with the belief that it is no longer viable (source: Index PSR Polls | PCPSR). What is interesting here is that their views are more nuanced and variable than is typically portrayed. I think it indicates a willingness to share in some capacity but a loss of faith that this will ever happen.

I'm not certain this is true. IF the security concerns could be addressed.

I disagree, as with the Palestinians it’s more complicated.

For example, this PEW poll, in 2016:

At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position.

(Actually this is a very interesting poll on Israeli views both Jewish and Arab).

You also have these views from Israel’s “religious Zionist” minority that has a lot of support from the far right government.

So for both, it isn’t that straightforward.

I really think the true path to peace, the only true path, is for Jews and Arabs to live together. It is much harder to demonize one another when you are neighbors. This is literally how you build tolerance instead of radicalization. It's hard for a child to see his best school buddy as a something evil that needs to be killed. This is the only real solution. The problem is getting from here to there.

That is actually something I 100% agree with. The more segregated you are, whether it is political echo chambers or religious/ethnic/sexual/racial identity, the easier it is to demonize The Other and the easier it is for others to exploit it.

 

[westwall]

When you talk about “radicalized” what do you mean?




That is debatable.

A 2-state solution, by definition, means sharing the real estate through dividing it, no one gets it all so I think measuring the support for it is probably the best way we have to get some idea of the sentiments.

Interesting March 2024:
Support for “armed struggle” dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%.

This is colored by the ongoing war but there have been trends it was steadily trending upwards and then downwards with the belief that it is no longer viable (source: Index PSR Polls | PCPSR). What is interesting here is that their views are more nuanced and variable than is typically portrayed. I think it indicates a willingness to share in some capacity but a loss of faith that this will ever happen.




I disagree, as with the Palestinians it’s more complicated.

For example, this PEW poll, in 2016:

At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position.

(Actually this is a very interesting poll on Israeli views both Jewish and Arab).

You also have these views from Israel’s “religious Zionist” minority that has a lot of support from the far right government.

So for both, it isn’t that straightforward.

That is actually something I 100% agree with. The more segregated you are, whether it is political echo chambers or religious/ethnic/sexual/racial identity, the easier it is to demonize The Other and the easier it is for others to exploit it.

No, it's not debatable. They have been offered a two state solution several times dating back to 1948.

They have rejected every single one because they aren't interested in sharing anything.

Their stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew.

 

[westwall]

You can disagree all you want, but facts are facts.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

When you talk about “radicalized” what do you mean?




That is debatable.

A 2-state solution, by definition, means sharing the real estate through dividing it, no one gets it all so I think measuring the support for it is probably the best way we have to get some idea of the sentiments.

Interesting March 2024:
Support for “armed struggle” dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%.

This is colored by the ongoing war but there have been trends it was steadily trending upwards and then downwards with the belief that it is no longer viable (source: Index PSR Polls | PCPSR). What is interesting here is that their views are more nuanced and variable than is typically portrayed. I think it indicates a willingness to share in some capacity but a loss of faith that this will ever happen.




I disagree, as with the Palestinians it’s more complicated.

For example, this PEW poll, in 2016:

At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position.

(Actually this is a very interesting poll on Israeli views both Jewish and Arab).

You also have these views from Israel’s “religious Zionist” minority that has a lot of support from the far right government.

So for both, it isn’t that straightforward.

That is actually something I 100% agree with. The more segregated you are, whether it is political echo chambers or religious/ethnic/sexual/racial identity, the easier it is to demonize The Other and the easier it is for others to exploit it.

"Complicated"

"Debatable"

Here is a simple concept that is not debatable:

If the Muslim death cult lays down its weapons, there will be peace.

If Israel lays down its weapons, there will be no more Israel.

 

[Coyote]

I agree that #1 is unrealistic and that Israel wouldn't accept it post October 7. I don't think the people of Gaza would accept it either, as it would require them to voluntarily abandon any idea of a "Greater Palestine". It is essentially what the experiment was for the past 20 years and that isn't going well for anyone.

I would not be so quick to dismiss #3, though. I'm not entirely convinced that the people of Gaza need or want an independent and sovereign country. Citizenship of some State, equality of rights, for sure. But why not under another sovereign that could offer economic health and structure? It could be some sort provincial system with some powers under a Gaza government, and some powers assigned to the State.

That is really an interesting thought, but I’m not quite sure how it would work. Is there a parallel that exists elsewhere for comparison?

The advantage of #3 over #2 is the investment of the "parent" sovereign, as opposed to a mandate where the parent will lose interest if it becomes too difficult (waves at Britain).

hmmmm….good point.

But here is another question, this one is practical. I’m assuming the “parent” would be Israel. The cost of rebuilding Gaza and making it habitual again is going to be astronomical. Not investing in serious reconstruction and through it, a cultural realignment on the Palestinian’s part would just perpetuate the conditions that led to what is happening now. The “parent” country is going to have to have partners who are willing to invest. With out a two-state solution, what would convince them to invest and trust that the investment will result in a just outcome for the Palestinians that could also lead to stability? Does that question make sense?

 

[Shusha]

That is really an interesting thought, but I’m not quite sure how it would work. Is there a parallel that exists elsewhere for comparison?

Probably not an exact one. But think, maybe, the one-day sovereign First Nations of Canada? It's limited sovereignty, but sovereignty over the things that matter.

But here is another question, this one is practical. I’m assuming the “parent” would be Israel.

Not at all. But the criteria would be tricky. It would have to be a parent that the Palestinians would accept; that the Israelis could trust with their security or monitor jointly with; someone with enough oomph to counter Iran and all their proxies; someone the US could see as a partner in the ME; someone with enough wealth to rebuild if for some reason the world abandons aide to Gaza; and someone who would benefit from having a lovely seaport and tourist location on the Mediterranean coast, along with some gas reserves. Does such a country exist?

The cost of rebuilding Gaza and making it habitual again is going to be astronomical.

Maybe Hamas can give back the $1/2 billion they made selling humanitarian aid to their own citizens?

... what would convince them to invest and trust that the investment will result in a just outcome for the Palestinians that could also lead to stability? Does that question make sense?

I think so? And I think I answered above, but feel free to clarify.