Over 200 killed in Israeli raid to free 4 hostages.

[rosends]

 

[Coyote]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Let me attempt to clarify.

It is not about narratives, so much as it is about actively changing the existing laws of war, or at the least, changing the way the existing laws of war are interpreted and enforced. (Which, in itself, is not problematic. Laws change all the time through active agreement or custom.) The problem comes because the Palestinians have adopted a deliberate strategy of using their own civilian population as a tool of military war and as a tool of lawfare. If this deliberate strategy changes the laws of war such that a defending force is entirely crippled and unable to respond to attacks against them, then there can no longer BE such a thing as defense.

I see the point you are making, I’m just not so sure I agree.

Militants hiding among civilian populations is not unique to Gaza, it has been a tactic used in other conflicts or in conflicts where it isn’t always possible to separate combatants and civilians because it is a dense urban area.

There is also another point, and that is the idea of what is a “defensive war”. I think when it comes to fighting off an attack on your own territory, it is 100% defense. Once you extend the war beyond your territory it is no longer that clear. Strategies that might be considered acceptable defense within your territory became less so outside it and that is especially so when the high civilian casualty rates get measured against what is actually achieved and whether it is really defense any longer, regardless of whether the combatants are using civilians deliberately as shields.

This hostage rescue is a clear example. We agree that abducting and holding in captivity civilian hostages is a war crime, yes? We agree that rescuing hostages is a just and even obligatory goal, yes? But the world is calling for restrictions which would make the rescue of hostages impossible, even with impeccable intelligence, WEEKS of planning, extensive training in replicated conditions, coordination of multiple agencies, three attempts that ended with no-go.

I don’t agree with this for several reasons, first is the implication that there is no other way of rescuing the hostages. That is a false premise. Equally false, imo, is that implication that there isn’t a better way. Killing 270+ people, many if not most of whom were not combatants does NOT look like a particularly well planned operation, at least if there was an intent to minimize civilian casualties in the operation.

116 hostages have been freed - among them:
5 Israeli’s and 3 Russian Israeli’s who were released early on.
78 were released as part of a hostage deal with Hamas.
23 Thai hostages and 1 Filipino were released in a deal between Hamas and the Thai government.

By contrast, how many have been rescued by military rescue operation?

Clearly, these “restrictions” that the world is “asking for” are not making the rescue of hostages impossible.


Shusha quote: (quotes got messed up)
We are losing the ability to conduct a just war. Which leaves those willing to commit atrocities in the driver's seat. Is that the direction we want to head?


I’m not seeing that. I’m seeing the corruption of a just war.

 

[frigidweirdo]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Why would you keep hostages in such a place?

Wait, "human shield" is coming to mind.

 

[Shusha]

Militants hiding among civilian populations is not unique to Gaza, it has been a tactic used in other conflicts or in conflicts where it isn’t always possible to separate combatants and civilians because it is a dense urban area.

This is squirrel. Sure. It isn't always possible to separate combatants and civilians because dense urban area. But sometimes it is. Cough. Tunnels.

Give me real reasons why the hostages were held in civilian residences, in civilian apartment buildings, in civilian neighborhoods, by cough "civilians". Just be intellectually honest about what is specifically happening in Gaza, pertaining to the hostages. This isn't militants taking advantage of civilians as shields. This is a deliberate strategy engineered by mix of militants AND civilians to create conditions where "civilians" are certain to be killed in order to bring about a deliberate political goal.

There is also another point, and that is the idea of what is a “defensive war”. I think when it comes to fighting off an attack on your own territory, it is 100% defense. Once you extend the war beyond your territory it is no longer that clear.

You can see the obvious problem this, I hope.

Killing 270+ people, many if not most of whom were not combatants

This is a disagreement of facts and definitions. I'd argue that many, if not most, were actively participating in preventing the rescue of the hostages and actively participating in harm to the operatives effecting the evacuation, meaning they are not protected persons.

I also would call you to consider that Hamas/people of Gaza had a CHOICE of whether to endanger their OWN civilian population in that moment of evacuation of the hostages. They might have chose to cut their losses and just let them go. Not endanger their own population. They chose against that. I'm hearing they, in their hundreds, stormed the rescue operation. And with some serious weaponry. Where is the demand for their decision, their accountability, their complicity in the deaths of their civilians?

does NOT look like a particularly well planned operation,

It was planned for WEEKS. What, exactly, are you expecting a "well-planned operation" to look like? What criteria would make it a "well-planned operation"?

at least if there was an intent to minimize civilian casualties in the operation.

I am curious to know what you think Israel could have done better in that situation under intense fire from hundreds of enemy combatants in the midst of an extraction with four hostages.

 

[Coyote]

This is squirrel. Sure. It isn't always possible to separate combatants and civilians because dense urban area. But sometimes it is. Cough. Tunnels.

No squirrel. Tunnels run under urban areas.

Give me real reasons why the hostages were held in civilian residences, in civilian apartment buildings, in civilian neighborhoods, by cough "civilians".

Multiple reasons: the captors are willing participants with Hamas (or members). Civilian areas offer a certain level of assumed protection from military action.

Just be intellectually honest about what is specifically happening in Gaza, pertaining to the hostages. This isn't militants taking advantage of civilians as shields. This is a deliberate strategy engineered by mix of militants AND civilians to create conditions where "civilians" are certain to be killed in order to bring about a deliberate political goal.

I don’t difference between those two conditions. Taking advantage of civilians is a deliberate strategy.

You can see the obvious problem this, I hope.

I see what you think is an “obvious” problem, but I don’t agree. Once a states expands a war outside its borders, its actions can become more questionable as can the claim of self defense and justness. That is the problem Israel is running up against: is it still a just war or is it vengeance?

An operation that rescues 4 hostages and kills 270 people is fair game for scrutiny.

This is a disagreement of facts and definitions. I'd argue that many, if not most, were actively participating in preventing the rescue of the hostages and actively participating in harm to the operatives effecting the evacuation, meaning they are not protected persons.

I disagree. You don’t know that. You are assuming intent and actions, not yet supported by evidence or independently corroborated, in order to erase what would normally be “protected people”. You are also applying the actions of a few to all with that type of redefinition.

I can present an opposing argument, using similar assumptions about Israel.

That Israel doesn’t care overly much about civilian casualties and using disproportionate force for minimal gain.

This view is supported by two things:

Israel’s Dahiya Doctrine which is now looking like one of Israel’s dominant strategies in this conflict.

Statements from Israeli political leadership and the military itself over the years to now, concerning Gazans and Palestinians in general and indicative of an overall attitude.

I would also add as a driving factor in this - Israel badly needs (both at home and among its international allies) what they hoped would be a substantial, smooth and flashy military rescue operation to justify its continued military campaign over a diplomatic campaign.

I also would call you to consider that Hamas/people of Gaza had a CHOICE of whether to endanger their OWN civilian population in that moment of evacuation of the hostages. They might have chose to cut their losses and just let them go. Not endanger their own population. They chose against that. I'm hearing they, in their hundreds, stormed the rescue operation. And with some serious weaponry. Where is the demand for their decision, their accountability, their complicity in the deaths of their civilians?

Are you conflating Hamas and the people of Gaza?
That was a densely populated area. What exactly could all those civilians do in the midst of a raid?

What is bolded is a “but what about argument” that is kind of a squirrel isn’t it? I don’t think anyone is justifying Hamas’ actions and Hamas’ actions don’t remove any culpability on Israel’s part (and vice versa).

It was planned for WEEKS. What, exactly, are you expecting a "well-planned operation" to look like? What criteria would make it a "well-planned operation"?

Well planned could like when they got bin Laden, as one example. It was urban, Maybe it was “well planned” and went badly wrong. Or maybe they don’t consider it as having been gone badly because they got 4 hostages and the civilian casualties are of no consequence.

I am curious to know what you think Israel could have done better in that situation under intense fire from hundreds of enemy combatants in the midst of an extraction with four hostages.

You ask this type of question numerous times but it is a question we, on the outside, can’t answer. We aren’t involved. We aren’t experts. We aren’t diplomats or leaders. We are not privy to either the battlefield or the negotiation rooms. We can only give our opinions based on what we see, what read, what others say, what can be independently corroborated (which is difficult given that foreign media barred).

For example - “Hundreds” of enemy combatants? Where did that number come from?

How did they not know there would be a substantial number of combatants among the civilian population if their intelligence was so impeccable?

What could they have done differently? Taken negotiating for their more seriously. That path has yielded 116 live hostages.

 

[Shusha]

Are you conflating Hamas and the people of Gaza?

I don't have to. They are doing a fine job themselves, as evidenced by this very subject.

That was a densely populated area. What exactly could all those civilians do in the midst of a raid?

Those with weapons might have chosen not to start a firefight in the middle of a market packed with civilians. Those without weapons might have chosen not to try to interfere with the extrication. Or cough "civilians" might have chosen not to commit war crimes in their own homes.

What is bolded is a “but what about argument” that is kind of a squirrel isn’t it?

Not even a little bit. It is the POINT of the discussion, at least where I am coming from. And that is: Hamas AND the civilian population of Gaza are not being held accountable for their decisions and choices.

I don’t think anyone is justifying Hamas’ actions and Hamas’ actions don’t remove any culpability on Israel’s part (and vice versa).

The actions of Hamas AND the civilian population of Gaza set the conditions under which Israel is forced to operate. Israel can only respond to the conditions it finds itself in.

Well planned could like when they got bin Laden, as one example. It was urban,

Not at all a fair comparison. It was a dedicated, walled and barbed wire compound entirely isolated from the surrounding community. Not two apartments in residential buildings in the middle of a residential area.

Maybe it was “well planned” and went badly wrong.

Yes. What went badly wrong about it? Turns out that many of the "civilians" in the "civilian area" were not actually civilians but participants. This according to those on the ground conducting the operation.

For example - “Hundreds” of enemy combatants? Where did that number come from?

Those conducting the operation.

How did they not know there would be a substantial number of combatants among the civilian population if their intelligence was so impeccable?

Clearly underestimated the number of involved "civilians".

What could they have done differently? Taken negotiating for their more seriously. That path has yielded 116 live hostages.

I think this is a serious misunderstanding of Israel's goals in this war. Israel is not going to negotiate itself into another 1500 dead in the next atrocity committed by those who have made that promise. Especially knowing the extent of the civilian involvement as they now know.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The 200 were killed as they FOUGHT the Israeli military FREEING the hostages.

Maybe they could have HELPED ISRAEL free the hostages instead

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The 200 were killed as they FOUGHT the Israeli military FREEING the hostages.

Maybe they could have HELPED ISRAEL free the hostages instead

Coyote thinks Israel should NOT free their people from Arab kidnappers, rapists and murderers

 

[Coyote]

I don't have to. They are doing a fine job themselves, as evidenced by this very subject.

Oh really? That sounds an awful lot like the propaganda being spread by Israel: there are no innocent Gaza civilians. Makes it easier to justify killing them though.

Those with weapons might have chosen not to start a firefight in the middle of a market packed with civilians. Those without weapons might have chosen not to try to interfere with the extrication. Or cough "civilians" might have chosen not to commit war crimes in their own homes.

And you know for a fact that all these dead and injured civilians were committing war crimes or trying to interfere with the “extrication”? That is amazing considering Israel has banned foreign media from Gaza and most claims can not be independently verified.

Not even a little bit. It is the POINT of the discussion, at least where I am coming from. And that is: Hamas AND the civilian population of Gaza are not being held accountable for their decisions and choices.

That touches on another problem here. Everytime there is an attempt discuss accountability on the part of Israel (and by extension, as you would have it, the civilian population of Israel) the conversation gets redirected to accountability on the part of the Palestinians. Whether it is political policies thst helped create the current crisis, settler violence, humanitarian aid, the destruction of the PA and witholding of revenues, lack of any stated long term plan for Gaza...anything.

The actions of Hamas AND the civilian population of Gaza set the conditions under which Israel is forced to operate. Israel can only respond to the conditions it finds itself in.

The actions and policies of Israel over the past decades helped create the conditions they are forced to operate under.

Not at all a fair comparison. It was a dedicated, walled and barbed wire compound entirely isolated from the surrounding community. Not two apartments in residential buildings in the middle of a residential area.

Yes. What went badly wrong about it? Turns out that many of the "civilians" in the "civilian area" were not actually civilians but participants. This according to those on the ground conducting the operation.

Witnesses on the ground caught in the middle say differently.

Who is to be believed?

No way to independently corroberate the claims.

Those conducting the operation.

And we should take their word for it.....why?

Clearly underestimated the number of involved "civilians".

Or didn't care since they were they were also backing it up with heavy bombing in a densly populated area and, after all there are no "innocent civilians" when it comes to Palestinians right?

I think this is a serious misunderstanding of Israel's goals in this war. Israel is not going to negotiate itself into another 1500 dead in the next atrocity committed by those who have made that promise. Especially knowing the extent of the civilian involvement as they now know.

I completely disagree. What is Israel's goal? Reduce Gaza to rubble and make life so impossible it will force them to "voluntarily" emigrate? That too has been stated or perhaps promised...along with 37,000 dead now. And given the refusal to discuss any sort of realistic post war plan for Gaza, it is believable.

Negotiations got 116 hostages released.

Negotiations don't automatically mean Hamas will be capable of repeating this.

 

[Shusha]

Oh really? That sounds an awful lot like the propaganda being spread by Israel: there are no innocent Gaza civilians. Makes it easier to justify killing them though.

This is a disingenuous leap. I have not, have NEVER, said that there are "no innocent Gazans". I am not arguing from the position that there are "no innocent Gazans". So no, my comments do not sound an awful lot like whatever propaganda is being spread.

My argument is that it has become apparent that "innocent civilians" are FAR more involved and complicit in the atrocities being committed than was previously understood.

It is you who fails to accept and recognize that drawing a sharp, clear line between "Hamas" and "civilians" is not possible. It is you who fails to accept and recognize that the people of Gaza are involved and complicit.

 

[Shusha]

And you know for a fact that all these dead and injured civilians were committing war crimes or trying to interfere with the “extrication”? That is amazing considering Israel has banned foreign media from Gaza and most claims can not be independently verified.

Another disingenuous dodge. A reminder of what I actually said:

Those with weapons might have chosen not to start a firefight in the middle of a market packed with civilians. Those without weapons might have chosen not to try to interfere with the extrication. Or cough "civilians" might have chosen not to commit war crimes in their own homes.

If the point is to minimize civilian casualties, and if both parties are committed to that as a fundamental baseline, the people of Gaza might have chosen NOT to start a firefight in the middle of a residential neighborhood (as a step two to NOT holding hostages in a civilian residential neighborhood, and as a step three to NOT committing war crimes by abducting hostages in the first place).

The available videos clearly demonstrate that the hostages and their extraction team were under heavy fire. That was a CHOICE made by (some) people of Gaza. That choice led to an outcome of civilian deaths.

 

[Shusha]

I completely disagree. What is Israel's goal?

Israel's goal has been crystal clear from the beginning of the October 7 War. Israel is one-and-done with the atrocity committed against her citizens and her sovereignty. Never again. That's it. There is nothing else.

 

[Coyote]

Israel's goal has been crystal clear from the beginning of the October 7 War. Israel is one-and-done with the atrocity committed against her citizens and her sovereignty. Never again. That's it. There is nothing else.

Not really. The goal may well be unrealistic, as is now being realized by the re-emergence of Hamas as guerilla fighters in areas previously cleared. The “goal” is also NOTABLE for its complete lack of any long term plan for afterwards, something that many similar modern conflicts that have involved one nation taking the conflict into another’s territory, have had: Afghanistan and Iraq for example. Allies wanted to see a goal that included a plan for maintaining peace afterwards.

The fact that Israel has deliberately avoided any clear statements while simultaneously demanding unqualified support lends creedance to concerns about Israel’s long term intentions for the Palestinians in both Gaza and now the West Bank. ESPECIALLY given the statements and actions of certain influential ministers in the government and the ruling coalition. This gets continuously ignored.

 

[progressive hunter]

Not really. The goal may well be unrealistic, as is now being realized by the re-emergence of Hamas as guerilla fighters in areas previously cleared. The “goal” is also NOTABLE for its complete lack of any long term plan for afterwards, something that many similar modern conflicts that have involved one nation taking the conflict into another’s territory, have had: Afghanistan and Iraq for example. Allies wanted to see a goal that included a plan for maintaining peace afterwards.

The fact that Israel has deliberately avoided any clear statements while simultaneously demanding unqualified support lends creedance to concerns about Israel’s long term intentions for the Palestinians in both Gaza and now the West Bank. ESPECIALLY given the statements and actions of certain influential ministers in the government and the ruling coalition. This gets continuously ignored.

theres a good long term plan,,

bomb gaza level and rebuild it without hamas or the so called peaceful Palestinians,,

 

[leftwinger]

200?

The number of illegals coming across every 11 minutes.
The number of new homeless Children arriving at only LA shelters daily.
The number of those shot every 20 days only in CHI.
The number of home invasion robbery by armed teens in ATL alone every month.
The number of US veterans evicted to the streets to open space for LGTBQ renters annually.

Clean up your own house afore you clean Israel. //

 

[leftwinger]

Those 200 dead would still be alive if Hamas terrorists hadn't killed 1200 Israelis and kidnapped hundreds more.

Pretty simple.

You own it sleazebag. You voted for it, (the planet has been on on fire since you voted again for USA communism). Suck it up maggot,

 

[Coyote]

theres a good long term plan,,

bomb gaza level and rebuild it without hamas or the so called peaceful Palestinians,,

Well, what you are articulating is genocide.

 

[progressive hunter]

Well, what you are articulating is genocide.

not in this case,,

they choose to constantly attack and call for the destruction of the state of israel so what ever happens to them is on them,,

and dont come back with this innocent civilian crap,,
thats been proven fake bullshit,,
they have had more than enough chances to call out hamas and chose to hide them instead,,

 

[Coyote]

not in this case,,

Yes. What you are calling for is genocide,

they choose to constantly attack and call for the destruction of the state of israel so what ever happens to them is on them,,

You are simplifying a complicated history with bad actors on both sides.

and dont come back with this innocent civilian crap,,
thats been proven fake bullshit,,

^bullshit

they have had more than enough chances to call out hamas and chose to hide them instead,,

Like they have a lot choice given how Hamas handles dissent.

 

[progressive hunter]

Yes. What you are calling for is genocide,


You are simplifying a complicated history with bad actors on both sides.




^bullshit




Like they have a lot choice given how Hamas handles dissent.

they chose to attack israel and hide hamas and hostages in their homes,,

they are also free to leave anytime they want,,

heres a novel idea,,

there should be more civilians that hamas right?? so all they have to do is show the IDF where hamas is hiding or collect them themselves and turn them over,,

they chose to attack so what happens is on them,,