Over 200 killed in Israeli raid to free 4 hostages.

[TemplarKormac]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

 

[1srelluc]

 

[Mr Natural]

Maybe next time they'll think twice about invading their neighbor.

 

[DGS49]

Hamas should never have launched the attack of 10/7. Then, having been defeated, they should have laid down their arms, released their hostages, and surrendered. Having declined to do that, HAMAS is responsible for every single additional death, on both sides. It ain't complicated.

If you disagree, please explain why. Explain their justification for continuing to hold hostages. Explain their justification for placing strategic resources and personnel in civilian locations (schools, hospitals, etc.). Explain their justification for continuing to launch lethal attacks on Israeli CIVILIANS (i.e., continuing rocket attacks on civilian centers).

Is Hamas justified simply because their genocidal attacks are not generally successful?

 

[USAF 2023]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Translation ; The Hostages should have remained in captivity and the rescue shouldn’t have been attempted. TOO BAD

 

[Coyote]

They were not "unlucky". They were intentionally participating in the abduction and captivity of civilian hostages OR they were actively supporting the captivity of civilian hostages OR they were peripherally aware of the presence of captive civilian hostages within their civilian infrastructure OR they were deliberately used as part of an overall military and political strategy.

In the first two, and arguably three, instances they are complicit. In the last instance, the responsibility rests entirely with Hamas for using their civilian population for that purpose.

I’m going to disagree, because this sort of argument becomes a tool legitimizing the killing of civilians.

You don’t know what people do or do not know.

You don’t know what threats Hamas holds over it’s civilian population.

We, in the US, have had multiple cases in the past few years, of horrific child abuse involving multiple children in each. In each case the children were effectively imprisoned in the house, living in filth, malnourished, even chained to their beds. These were situations that had gone on for years, in some cases. They weren’t living in isolated remote compounds or farms. They were living right within middle class residential neighborhoods. Yet no one had a clue until CPS and the police came down on them.

Is the whole neighborhood complicit? Were the neighbors actively supporting the captivity of these children?

 

[HeyNorm]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Gee, if Hamas would simply surrender after their embarrassing loss, there would be no additional loss of life.

And it Hamas’s duty to the civilian population to surrender.

Got it?

 

[HeyNorm]

I’m going to disagree, because this sort of argument becomes a tool legitimizing the killing of civilians.

You don’t know what people do or do not know.

You don’t know what threats Hamas holds over it’s civilian population.

We, in the US, have had multiple cases in the past few years, of horrific child abuse involving multiple children in each. In each case the children were effectively imprisoned in the house, living in filth, malnourished, even chained to their beds. These were situations that had gone on for years, in some cases. They weren’t living in isolated remote compounds or farms. They were living right within middle class residential neighborhoods. Yet no one had a clue until CPS and the police came down on them.

Is the whole neighborhood complicit? We’re the neighbors actively supporting the captivity of these children?

Yet you blame Israel. Cute.

But those of us, not in a cult, understand that the government that loses a war, has a duty to protect its citizens by means of surrender.

It’s all in the hands of Hamas. They are solely responsible for all civilians casualties.

 

[Coyote]

Yet you blame Israel. Cute.

For what? Be specific.

But those of us, not in a cult, understand that the government that loses a war, has a duty to protect its citizens by means of surrender.

Those of us, not in cult, recognize the reality that is Hamas: they haven’t had an election in 19 years and they don’t give a crap about their citizens. I thought that would have been obvious by now.

It’s all in the hands of Hamas. They are solely responsible for all civilians casualties.

Disagree. There is mixed responsibility.

 

[Failzero]

Of the 200 ( 131 were Hamas Fighters or Associates and 2 were hostages ?)

 

[Kondor3]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

200 for 4 ???

That's only a 50-to-1 Kill Ratio...

Anything less than 100-to-1 is unacceptable...

The IDF is slipping...

 

[HeyNorm]

For what? Be specific.



Those of us, not in cult, recognize the reality that is Hamas: they haven’t had an election in 19 years and they don’t give a crap about their citizens. I thought that would have been obvious by now.




Disagree. There is mixed responsibility.

Nope, in war there is not mixed responsibility. The loser surrenders. It is their responsibility

 

[Shusha]

I’m going to disagree, because this sort of argument becomes a tool legitimizing the killing of civilians.

No, it is not a tool for legitimizing the killing of civilians. It is recognizing the complicity of people who participate in the war (and in war crimes) who then lose their protected status.

Every adult in the two apartments where the hostages were kept are actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. They are not protected civilians.

Every adult who attempted to thwart, block, or prevent the rescue of the hostages is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. They are not protected civilians.

Every adult who participated in the captivity, movement, medical treatment, video-recording, or provision of necessities to the hostages is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. Not protected.

Every adult who could reasonably have known that hostages were kept there, due to Hamas activity in the building, as example, is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. Not protected.

Every adult who had no freaking idea what was going on right under their noses was deliberately put in the midst of a combat zone by virtue of the fact that hostages were being kept embedded within a densely-populated displaced persons camp. The responsibility for where the hostages were kept is solely on Hamas and/or the people of Gaza who chose to put them there. It is their decision, their choice. They need to take responsibility for it.

Israel can not create the circumstances in which it is obligated to fight. That is on Hamas.

200+ killed, yes? How many were actively participating, either in holding and keeping the hostages or in attempting to prevent the rescue? 50? 100? 200? How many were caught up in what I understand to be an extensive exchange of deadly fire in the middle of a crowded marketplace and two civilian residential complexes because Hamas put the hostages there?

 

[Coyote]

No, it is not a tool for legitimizing the killing of civilians. It is recognizing the complicity of people who participate in the war (and in war crimes) who then lose their protected status.

I disagree. You have widened the circle of complicity to include virtually anyone in Gaza.

Every adult in the two apartments where the hostages were kept are actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. They are not protected civilians.[\quote]

THAT I would agree with.

Every adult who attempted to thwart, block, or prevent the rescue of the hostages is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. They are not protected civilians.

Agree there as well.

Every adult who participated in the captivity, movement, medical treatment, video-recording, or provision of necessities to the hostages is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. Not protected.

Iffy. If they provided medical treatment, that could also be a way of helping the victims. Possibly also providing food.

Every adult who could reasonably have known that hostages were kept there, due to Hamas activity in the building, as example, is actively participating in the war and committing war crimes. Not protected.

That is hugely speculative and subjective and essentially open ended.

Every adult who had no freaking idea what was going on right under their noses was deliberately put in the midst of a combat zone by virtue of the fact that hostages were being kept embedded within a densely-populated displaced persons camp. The responsibility for where the hostages were kept is solely on Hamas and/or the people of Gaza who chose to put them there. It is their decision, their choice. They need to take responsibility for it.

It is the responsibility of Hamas, not the collective responsibility of all the people in Gaza.

Israel can not create the circumstances in which it is obligated to fight. That is on Hamas.

True.

200+ killed, yes? How many were actively participating, either in holding and keeping the hostages or in attempting to prevent the rescue? 50? 100? 200?

You don’t know. You seem assume most or all.

How many were caught up in what I understand to be an extensive exchange of deadly fire in the middle of a crowded marketplace and two civilian residential complexes because Hamas put the hostages there?

I would think most.

Edited to add, the quotes are all screwed up, apologies for that.

 

[martybegan]

I’m going to disagree, because this sort of argument becomes a tool legitimizing the killing of civilians.

You don’t know what people do or do not know.

You don’t know what threats Hamas holds over it’s civilian population.

We, in the US, have had multiple cases in the past few years, of horrific child abuse involving multiple children in each. In each case the children were effectively imprisoned in the house, living in filth, malnourished, even chained to their beds. These were situations that had gone on for years, in some cases. They weren’t living in isolated remote compounds or farms. They were living right within middle class residential neighborhoods. Yet no one had a clue until CPS and the police came down on them.

Is the whole neighborhood complicit? Were the neighbors actively supporting the captivity of these children?

So just let the bad guys win. Got it.

 

[Coyote]

So just let the bad guys win. Got it.

No. I don’t think you got it.

 

[Failzero]

If

So just let the bad guys win. Got it.

the Bad Guys are the IDF then yes

 

[Shusha]

I disagree. You have widened the circle of complicity to include virtually anyone in Gaza.

Have I? Do you think virtually everyone in Gaza knows where the hostages are and are actively participating?

 

[Coyote]

Have I? Do you think virtually everyone in Gaza knows where the hostages are and are actively participating?

No.

 

[Shusha]

No. I don’t think you got it.

It's an important point, though. If people actively participating in the war and actively committing war crimes are seen by the international "community" as protected persons, and if that popular opinion, takes the form of sanctions, lawfare, political pressure, removal of resources, and political advantages then those who commit atrocities have effectively won.