Over 200 killed in Israeli raid to free 4 hostages.

[Coyote]

they chose to attack israel and hide hamas and hostages in their homes,,

Blaming 2.3 million people for the actions is collective punishment. Calling for their elimination is genocide no matter how you slice and dice.

You are pro genocide.

they are also free to leave anytime they want,,

heres a novel idea,,

there should be more civilians that hamas right?? so all they have to do is show the IDF where hamas is hiding or collect them themselves and turn them over,,

they chose to attack so what happens is on them,,

So let’s add ethnic cleansing to your list.

 

[progressive hunter]

Blaming 2.3 million people for the actions is collective punishment. Calling for their elimination is genocide no matter how you slice and dice.

You are pro genocide.

So let’s add ethnic cleansing to your list.

save it,, those people elected hamas as their leaders with 80% approval,,
so anything that happens to them is on them,,

and at last count there were a hell of a lot more than 2.3 million arabs in the middle east, so your genocide claim is just the rantings of a lunatic,,

 

[westwall]

Blaming 2.3 million people for the actions is collective punishment. Calling for their elimination is genocide no matter how you slice and dice.

You are pro genocide.

So let’s add ethnic cleansing to your list.

Pali population has risen by over a million under Israeli rule. Pretty poor attempt at genocide.

 

[Coyote]

Pali population has risen by over a million under Israeli rule. Pretty poor attempt at genocide.

You are jumping in the middle of a conversation. If you had followed from the beginning you would have seen that I am responding to something PH is calling for, HIS statement, which is calling for genocide. This is not what Israel is or is not doing, it is what PH says should be done.

 

[progressive hunter]

You are jumping in the middle of a conversation. If you had followed from the beginning you would have seen that I am responding to something PH is calling for, HIS statement, which is calling for genocide. This is not what Israel is or is not doing, it is what PH says should be done.

what I called for is not genocide,,

there re far to many arabs in the region for that to ever happen,,

and beings the so called civilians support what hamas is doing by 80% as well as giving them protection and hiding hostages inside private homes they are combatants not civilians,,

they are free to leave through their southern border anytime they want,,

 

[Billo_Really]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Fuck Israel! It is a piece of shit country!

 

[Coyote]

what I called for is not genocide,,

Yes it is.

there re far to many arabs in the region for that to ever happen,,

These are Palestinians.

and beings the so called civilians support what hamas is doing by 80% as well as giving them protection and hiding hostages inside private homes they are combatants not civilians,,

It is still genocide. Stop trying to justify murdering millions of people.

they are free to leave through their southern border anytime they want,,

Oh wait…so are you downgrading it to ethnic cleansing or are you just going to murder those you can’t push into Egypt?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

 

[progressive hunter]

Yes it is.



These are Palestinians.



It is still genocide. Stop trying to justify murdering millions of people.


Oh wait…so are you downgrading it to ethnic cleansing or are you just going to murder those you can’t push into Egypt?

if they didnt want to get killed they shouldnt have started the fight,,

why are you siding with terrorist that rape and murder women and children??

 

[Shusha]

Not really. The goal may well be unrealistic, as is now being realized by the re-emergence of Hamas as guerilla fighters in areas previously cleared. The “goal” is also NOTABLE for its complete lack of any long term plan for afterwards, something that many similar modern conflicts that have involved one nation taking the conflict into another’s territory, have had: Afghanistan and Iraq for example. Allies wanted to see a goal that included a plan for maintaining peace afterwards.

The goal is realistic, we just aren't finished yet.

Any long-term plan for Gaza will necessarily involve a number of regional and global partners and requires the will of the people of Gaza. Demanding that Israel make that plan in the absence of those partners is unrealistic and foolish.

Our "allies" can want to see other goals, but Israel is a sovereign country and makes her own decisions about her citizens, her territory, and her future.

The fact that Israel has deliberately avoided any clear statements while simultaneously demanding unqualified support...

I don't know what news you are seeing. All I can say (again) is that Israel has been crystal clear about her goals.

lends creedance to concerns about Israel’s long term intentions for the Palestinians in both Gaza and now the West Bank.

Israel's long-term intentions towards Gaza have been apparent since at least 2005, in word and policy. Israel does not want sovereignty over that territory and those people. Does the October 7 War change that? No.

IF, however, the people of Gaza's long-term intentions are to continue to commit atrocities against Israel, then Israel is forced to respond to those conditions with increased security, likely from within Gaza.

ESPECIALLY given the statements and actions of certain influential ministers in the government and the ruling coalition. This gets continuously ignored.

That said, there are strong feelings amongst many Israelis that there is only one sure and proven path to peace: Israeli sovereignty and "close settlement on the land" by the Jewish people. I find it hard to argue with them.

 

[Coyote]

The goal is realistic, we just aren't finished yet.

Any long-term plan for Gaza will necessarily involve a number of regional and global partners and requires the will of the people of Gaza. Demanding that Israel make that plan in the absence of those partners is unrealistic and foolish.

Our "allies" can want to see other goals, but Israel is a sovereign country and makes her own decisions about her citizens, her territory, and her future.

That is true. She is a sovereign country. That doesn’t mean there are no consequences and it doesn’t mean she can demand or automatically expect unconditional international support regardless of what she does.

I also disagree with what you say about a long term plan. An absence of such makes Israel’s intentions questionable. You don’t start the plan after it’s all over and you are dealing with an ongoing humanitarian crisis (at best). And you don’t get alliances to buy in without some long term strategy in place. You build your alliances and make plans for what’s next well before the end because presumably it is going to be a heavy and expensive lift. When I think of other major conflicts where one nation invaded another (Afghanistan and Iraq), alliances were built early on and so was a “nation building” plan for when it was over (a whole ‘nother can of worms).

Without any of that…why would you expect buy in and international support and $? Nations are not going to invest in anything where they can’t see a roadmap.

I don't know what news you are seeing. All I can say (again) is that Israel has been crystal clear about her goals.

Part of the goals include making sure Hamas can’t become a political or militarized power in Gaza again. How’s that going?

How is that goal going to be met with military power alone?

How is that even an attainable goal without a long term plan to stabilize Gaza?

How is that goal being met when Israel has left a power vacuum and lawlessness where it has driven Hamas out and Hamas is popping up again in guerrela fashion now?

Israel's long-term intentions towards Gaza have been apparent since at least 2005, in word and policy. Israel does not want sovereignty over that territory and those people. Does the October 7 War change that? No.

How can you say that with any surety GIVEN the government in charge right now?

How can you say that with the notable absence of any long term plan?

IF, however, the people of Gaza's long-term intentions are to continue to commit atrocities against Israel, then Israel is forced to respond to those conditions with increased security, likely from within Gaza.

That said, there are strong feelings amongst many Israelis that there is only one sure and proven path to peace: Israeli sovereignty and "close settlement on the land" by the Jewish people. I find it hard to argue with them.

That is what I thought would eventually be said.

How is that going to bring peace? Where are you going to put those settlements? What are going to do with the people that live or were driven from there? Confine them to restricted areas? Bantustans? Take their property? I wonder who will get to develop and live in the lucrative sea side properties? Palestinians?

Settlements where one set of people exist with rights and freedoms over another set people who do not have the rights and freedoms that come with autonomy or citizenship have never brought lasting peace.

Who will pay for reconstruction?

 

[Shusha]

I also disagree with what you say about a long term plan. An absence of such makes Israel’s intentions questionable.

No, it doesn't. It does not make Israel's intentions questionable. Israel's intentions are clear, and, again, have been since at least 2005. Israel has abandoned sovereignty in Gaza. Israel's only interest with Gaza is to ensure security for Israel's territory and Israel's citizens. The long-term plan for Gaza is not Israel's responsibility. It is the responsibility of the people of Gaza.

These are the options, as I see them:

#1. Gaza has the capacity, in the immediate future, of becoming a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State on par with all the other states in the world.

#2. Gaza does not have the capacity to become a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State now, but can develop such a capacity under the tutelage of a Mandate system by some combination of third party states.

#3. There is no path in the foreseeable future for a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State in Gaza and the only hope for the people of Gaza is sovereignty under another State.

Which of these, do you think, will the people of Gaza choose?

 

[Shusha]

Part of the goals include making sure Hamas can’t become a political or militarized power in Gaza again.

Well, no. The goal is to dismantle, with some level of thoroughness, the existing military and, to some extent, the political power of Hamas to act in the immediate future. The immediate future being, I don't know, the next twenty years or so? Entirely disrupt and destroy any existing military infrastructure, any capacity for military training, any capacity for importing weapons, disrupt the economy of war, create psychological deterrents, and deradicalize.

How’s that going?

So far, so good.

 

[Shusha]

How is that going to bring peace?

The same way it brought peace within Israel "proper".

Where are you going to put those settlements?

Not "settlements". Just people living in Gaza. Some Arabs. Some Jews. Same as Israel "proper".

What are going to do with the people that live or were driven from there?

Give them economic prosperity, peace, safety, and an epic Pride Parade once a year.

 

[Coyote]

No, it doesn't. It does not make Israel's intentions questionable. Israel's intentions are clear, and, again, have been since at least 2005. Israel has abandoned sovereignty in Gaza. Israel's only interest with Gaza is to ensure security for Israel's territory and Israel's citizens. The long-term plan for Gaza is not Israel's responsibility. It is the responsibility of the people of Gaza.

You keep ignoring what the government is actually saying and not saying.

I also disagree with last statement.

The term plan is NOT in the hands of the Gaza, therefore it is not their responsibility. At least as of now.

As long as Israel has ANY control, they maintain a level of responsibility. ISRAEL per its own statements, will determine who will and how Gaza will governed, NOT the people of Gaza.

Israel has reduced Gaza to rubble, regardless of the righteousness or wrongness of what has been done, as the conquering power Israel (just like the U.S. in Afghanistan or Iraq, or with Japan or Germany in earlier wars, has a moral and ethical obligation to have some sort of plan even if it is only through a strategic network of alliances administering and funding it.

And, if you simply hate the Palestinians and want to leave Gaza’s people in ruins,, there is a far more practical aspect to this: the long term safety and security of Israel’s citizens because the violence and now lawlessness is spilling over into the West Bank and it is not just coming from the Palestinians.

What has worked and more importantly what has NOT worked in some 80 years (3-4 generations) of conflict?

Obviously giving immediate and direct sovereignty did not work.

Hindsight: without any “nation building” or long term strategic plan handing Gaza over, when there no real democratic institutions or culture, Hamas was the dominant political entity and other than Fatah the only organized opposition to a corrupt Fatah, it was doomed to fail. Add in problems with the overall culture in Gaza and it is ugly.

Collective punishment on the Palestinians in general (such as bulldozing houses of the family of individuals convicted of terrorism) has not worked either nor has the disappearance of people under the auspices of “administrative detention”.

Where Palestinian support for a two-state solution had been rising, it has fallen as the prospect of that ever happening has been eroded by Israel’s policies over the past several decades and direct statements from Netanyahu. Israel punished the Palestinians for circumventing that and going directly to the UN and support for violent resistance is rising. Again.

I’m not saying the Palestinians are sitting there innocent either, but for once let’s look critically at Israel’s own actions and the results.

If these things haven’t worked, why are you adding another layer of something bound fail both for Israel’s people and the support of the international community? No strategic plan to ensure stability going forward? Really? Isn’t that kicking the can down the road, which both Israel and the international community have been doing for years now regarding the Palestinians? How does that help Israel’s citizens? It relies on deterrence alone and that doesn’t work well in the long term. It also leaves in place or worse, concentrates the conditions for further extremism and radicalization.

These are the options, as I see them:

#1. Gaza has the capacity, in the immediate future, of becoming a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State on par with all the other states in the world.

#2. Gaza does not have the capacity to become a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State now, but can develop such a capacity under the tutelage of a Mandate system by some combination of third party states.

#3. There is no path in the foreseeable future for a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State in Gaza and the only hope for the people of Gaza is sovereignty under another State.

Which of these, do you think, will the people of Gaza choose?

I’m out of time this morning, heading to dog training class, but I want get back to these points because I think are important and possibly areas of agreement.

 

[Ringo]

Russia: 6 terrorists killed during the release of 2 hostages

Israel: 800 civilians killed during the release of 4 hostages

 

[Coyote]

These are the options, as I see them:

#1. Gaza has the capacity, in the immediate future, of becoming a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State on par with all the other states in the world.

#2. Gaza does not have the capacity to become a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State now, but can develop such a capacity under the tutelage of a Mandate system by some combination of third party states.

#3. There is no path in the foreseeable future for a self-governing, peaceful, lawful, recognized State in Gaza and the only hope for the people of Gaza is sovereignty under another State.

Which of these, do you think, will the people of Gaza choose?

If a choice was presented now?

#1 is both unlikely and unrealistic, Israel would not accept it.

#3 similarly unrealistic because sovereignty under another will not confer autonomy, citizenship or equality of rights. The Palestinians would not accept that.

It is hard to say. I think 2 offers the best potential for them and for Israel long term.

 

[Coyote]

Well, no. The goal is to dismantle, with some level of thoroughness, the existing military and, to some extent, the political power of Hamas to act in the immediate future. The immediate future being, I don't know, the next twenty years or so? Entirely disrupt and destroy any existing military infrastructure, any capacity for military training, any capacity for importing weapons, disrupt the economy of war, create psychological deterrents, and deradicalize.

So far, so good.

Actually, what you are outlining above is essentially the same as what I am saying, it just lacks detail.

How is Israel going to disrupt or destroy the economy of war if there is nothing to replace it with?

How would psychological deterrents work? They haven’t yet, if we are thinking of the same thing.

How are you going to deradicalize if you don’t have anything to fill the vacuum?

Israel has no long term plan because it’s leadership is dependent on appeasing it’s extremists to stay in power and that is more important than getting the hostages out and more important than articulating a long term plan for Gaza that may fracture them.

 

[Coyote]

The same way it brought peace within Israel "proper".

Are you including the West Bank in Israel “proper”?

Not "settlements". Just people living in Gaza. Some Arabs. Some Jews. Same as Israel "proper".

I always agree with this in theory, but it is hard to reconcile with the “facts on the ground”: complete lack of trust in the other, the fact that to ensure the safety of the group in control (Jews) it would require an enormous amount of security, barriers and separation such as exists in the West Bank currently. That really has not worked well for the Palestinians.

How are you going to move past significant roadblocks?

Palestinians distrust and hate the Jews, and see them as murderous occupiers.

Jews distrust and hate Palestinians and see them as violent killers who will keep trying to kill no matter what they do.

The Palestinians don’t want to share Gaza with Jews.

The Jews don’t want to share Gaza with Palestinians.

Give them economic prosperity, peace, safety, and an epic Pride Parade once a year.

I do believe that would go a long ways (maybe not the Pride parade) … and this is also why I place so much value on having a plan for when the war ends that has multi-national support and funding to rebuild. A Marshall plan of sorts.

 

[Shusha]

Phew. Where to start with the replies?