Over 200 killed in Israeli raid to free 4 hostages.

[Shusha]

No.

Well then, I haven't widened the scope of complicity beyond those who are ... um ... complicit.

 

[martybegan]

No. I don’t think you got it.

I don't think you get that the rules of war were designed to protect BOTH sides of a conflict when BOTH sides follow the rules.

The additions of one sided protections for civilians just gives the bad guys more incentive to not follow said rules.

 

[Failzero]

Fuck off you anti-semitic terrorist sucking off dipshit.

Wait wut , I’m the most pro Israel Colonialist lovin Zionis on this board ( After Lisa )

 

[martybegan]

Wait wut , I’m the most pro Israel Colonialist lovin Zionis on this board ( After Lisa )

I think I missed your sarcasm and thought you were calling the IDF the actual bad guys.

Deleting my response.

 

[Toro]

If you don't want to get killed for taking hostages, don't take any hostages.

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Coyote]

It's an important point, though. If people actively participating in the war and actively committing war crimes are seen by the international "community" as protected persons, and if that popular opinion, takes the form of sanctions, lawfare, political pressure, removal of resources, and political advantages then those who commit atrocities have effectively won.

That is kind of part of the problem. Who’s narratives do you believe? And why? This as much a war of narratives, propaganda and public opinion as it is a military conflict. And it is not one sided against Israel either. There is consistent and deliberate blurring of any distinction between Hamas specifically and the Palestinian people in general.

There also seems to have been a gradual broadening of who is defined as “participating” in the war so as to include many more civilians now.

The problem I have with your last statement is this: that these sanctions, political pressure, removal of resources and political advantages etc. are somehow completely unjustified. And that applying them automatically means Hamas has won. Saying that is saying that the current approach is the only way of winning. That seems like a bad strategy, but also not surprising because there doesn’t seem to be any long term plan to effectively end the war and define the next phase. That is part of what drives the political pressure.

 

[Toro]

Those 200 dead would still be alive if Hamas terrorists hadn't killed 1200 Israelis and kidnapped hundreds more.

Pretty simple.

 

[Shusha]

That is kind of part of the problem. Who’s narratives do you believe? And why? This as much a war of narratives, propaganda and public opinion as it is a military conflict.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Let me attempt to clarify.

It is not about narratives, so much as it is about actively changing the existing laws of war, or at the least, changing the way the existing laws of war are interpreted and enforced. (Which, in itself, is not problematic. Laws change all the time through active agreement or custom.) The problem comes because the Palestinians have adopted a deliberate strategy of using their own civilian population as a tool of military war and as a tool of lawfare. If this deliberate strategy changes the laws of war such that a defending force is entirely crippled and unable to respond to attacks against them, then there can no longer BE such a thing as defense.

This hostage rescue is a clear example. We agree that abducting and holding in captivity civilian hostages is a war crime, yes? We agree that rescuing hostages is a just and even obligatory goal, yes? But the world is calling for restrictions which would make the rescue of hostages impossible, even with impeccable intelligence, WEEKS of planning, extensive training in replicated conditions, coordination of multiple agencies, three attempts that ended with no-go.

We are losing the ability to conduct a just war. Which leaves those willing to commit atrocities in the driver's seat. Is that the direction we want to head?

 

[Failzero]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Let me attempt to clarify.

It is not about narratives, so much as it is about actively changing the existing laws of war, or at the least, changing the way the existing laws of war are interpreted and enforced. (Which, in itself, is not problematic. Laws change all the time through active agreement or custom.) The problem comes because the Palestinians have adopted a deliberate strategy of using their own civilian population as a tool of military war and as a tool of lawfare. If this deliberate strategy changes the laws of war such that a defending force is entirely crippled and unable to respond to attacks against them, then there can no longer BE such a thing as defense.

This hostage rescue is a clear example. We agree that abducting and holding in captivity civilian hostages is a war crime, yes? We agree that rescuing hostages is a just and even obligatory goal, yes? But the world is calling for restrictions which would make the rescue of hostages impossible, even with impeccable intelligence, WEEKS of planning, extensive training in replicated conditions, coordination of multiple agencies, three attempts that ended with no-go.

We are losing the ability to conduct a just war. Which leaves those willing to commit atrocities in the driver's seat. Is that the direction we want to head?

The only Just war is if it’s against White Folks ?

 

[Shusha]

The only Just war is if it’s against White Folks ?

The oppressor/oppressed narrative with different standards and rules for each is problematic. Example: NO Israeli is a civilian because their mere presence is a violation vs EVERY Palestinian is a civilian despite committing atrocities because "resistance".

 

[westwall]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Don't fuck around, and you won't be forced to find out.

 

[Mac-7]

For what? Be specific.

Those of us, not in cult, recognize the reality that is

Hamas: they haven’t had an election in 19 years

and they don’t give a crap about their citizens. I thought that would have been obvious by now.

Disagree. There is mixed responsibility.

That is a good reason to continue the war and killing as many Hamas as possible

While at the same time destroying Hamas infastructure

After this the Pals will have a chance to reject Hamas if they want to

Which is questionable but at least possible

 

[westwall]

I’m going to disagree, because this sort of argument becomes a tool legitimizing the killing of civilians.

You don’t know what people do or do not know.

You don’t know what threats Hamas holds over it’s civilian population.

We, in the US, have had multiple cases in the past few years, of horrific child abuse involving multiple children in each. In each case the children were effectively imprisoned in the house, living in filth, malnourished, even chained to their beds. These were situations that had gone on for years, in some cases. They weren’t living in isolated remote compounds or farms. They were living right within middle class residential neighborhoods. Yet no one had a clue until CPS and the police came down on them.

Is the whole neighborhood complicit? Were the neighbors actively supporting the captivity of these children?

Ham-ass had every opportunity to not do this. Civilians die in war. If you actually cared about civilians being killed you would demand ham-ass surrender, and release all of the hostages.

You haven't, they won't, so the IDF could kill a million "civilians" and I wouldn't give a tinkers damn.

The Pali's wanted this shit show, so they can suck it up.

Fuck 'em.

 

[Lastamender]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Terror attacks will do that. Stop the terror.

 

[HaShev]

Did you guys know that one of the people hosting 3 hostages was the
Al Jazeera reporter reporting from the security fence (I think around that section that was breeched).

 

[Zebra]

They were not "unlucky". They were intentionally participating in the abduction and captivity of civilian hostages OR they were actively supporting the captivity of civilian hostages OR they were peripherally aware of the presence of captive civilian hostages within their civilian infrastructure OR they were deliberately used as part of an overall military and political strategy.

In the first two, and arguably three, instances they are complicit. In the last instance, the responsibility rests entirely with Hamas for using their civilian population for that purpose.

very true!

 

[Votto]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

In this article, it makes the saving of hostages sound as if it is now a problem for Biden

Hostage rescue complicates U.S. push for a cease-fire deal

The recent rescue of four hostages will likely complicate U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s effort to release the remaining hostages and achieve a cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas, according to a senior administration official.

www.yahoo.com

The recent rescue of four hostages will likely complicate Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s efforts to broker a new cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas that would secure the release of the remaining captives in Gaza, a senior administration official has told NBC News.

The freeing of the hostages has strengthened Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s determination to continue pursuing military operations, rather than agreeing to a cease-fire, the official told NBC News. And the Hamas military leader Yahya Sinwar, who has held out despite intense pressure for a deal from Qatar and Egypt, could take an even harder line because of the high number of civilian Palestinian casualties from the Israeli rescue operation.

The senior official said some of the civilian victims died in the crossfire from Hamas fighters responding to the Israeli operation. A second official said Hamas is ultimately responsible for the Palestinian deaths by hiding hostages in densely populated areas.

He added that while the release of the four Israeli hostages is welcome news, it is not going to change the status quo because there is still a significant number of hostages remaining, including five Americans believed to be alive.

That's right everyone, count'em, 5 more American hostages left.

Here is a clue for BiDung, rescue them like Israel just did and stop whinning about wanting to broker a peace deal with a terrorist organization that will last about 5 seconds anyway.


Idiots!!

 

[braalian]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone.



Israeli forces recovered the hostages alive from two buildings in Nuseirat, an impoverished refugee camp. But the fiery assault, in the middle of the day, left unimaginable devastation in its wake.

Residential blocks were destroyed, tanks menaced the streets and grievously wounded Palestinians, some without limbs, writhed in pain on the dusty roads of the camp’s central market, according to videos and images of the raid. Many of them never reached local hospitals, health officials said. But even then, medical facilities decimated by the war often have little ability to treat injured patients.

“Israel committed a massacre in Nuseirat,” Khalil al-Degran, spokesman for al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, said at a news conference Saturday. “In this terrible state … the hospital cannot absorb the number of dead and injured. The hospital has been at full capacity for weeks.”

Degran and other health officials said 210 people had been killed and 400 others wounded in the blitz. The number of dead included 94 at al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital and 116 at the nearby al-Awda Hospital, according to Degran and Marwan Abu Nasser, administrative director at al-Awda.

“During the operation, helicopters targeted anyone who moved in the courtyard of al-Awda,” said Rami al-Sharafi, a doctor at the hospital. The military, he said, had “prevented ambulances from leaving or returning to the hospital” while the raid was underway.The operation retrieved Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; Shlomi Ziv, 41; and Noa Argamani, 26. The four hostages were abducted from a music festival in the Israeli desert on Oct. 7. Hamas fighters attacked southern Israel that day, killing around 1,200 people and kidnapping more than 250 others to bring back to Gaza as hostages.

Since then, Israel has embarked on a destructive military campaign to eliminate Hamas, which ruled Gaza for years. The military has laid waste to much of the enclave, including its infrastructure, and restricted the flow of food and aid, even as the population slides into famine.

In nine months of war, more than 36,800 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants but says the majority of those killed are women and children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/08/israel-hostages-nuseirat-camp-gaza/

Sheltering hostage-taking terrorists comes with consequences

 

[Votto]

Sheltering hostage-taking terrorists comes with consequences

Not if you apart of the Biden administration

Thank God the Israeli government stands up to these terrorists and rescues their hostages.

When will Biden rescue the American citizens?

Those Americans captured by Hamas will be forgotten like the Americans Biden left behind in Afghanistan.

No one cares, especially the media.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

More loss of civilian life, this time around 200 citizens who were either Hamas terrorists, the others unlucky civilians who got caught in the kill zone

These are the animals you're crying over