[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[RKMBrown]

How many threads are you gonna post that tripe in?

Being called a Nazi by everyone in the forum is making him touchy.

Call me whatever you want. What you say reflects you, not me.

Yeah he's smart and you are dumb?

 

[healthmyths]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

"Tax Loopholes" Here they are. You ready to abolish them???

The Top 20 Tax Expenditures - Business Insider

1. $171 billion in 2012 was deducted from taxes for... health insurance for EMPLOYEES!!
   
2. $138 billion for employees pensions!
   
3. $87 billion employees mortgage interest deductions
   
4. $24 billion for child care credit
   
5. $33 billion charitable contributions
   
6. $27 billion deductions of health care items
   
7. $66 billion capital gains (Obama took $122,000 off his taxes from this!)

NOTICE that 1, 2, 3,4,5 items are for individuals... i.e. employee insurance ..deduction... employee pensions.. etc...

 

[PMZ]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

"Tax Loopholes" Here they are. You ready to abolish them???

The Top 20 Tax Expenditures - Business Insider

1. $171 billion in 2012 was deducted from taxes for... health insurance for EMPLOYEES!!
   
2. $138 billion for employees pensions!
   
3. $87 billion employees mortgage interest deductions
   
4. $24 billion for child care credit
   
5. $33 billion charitable contributions
   
6. $27 billion deductions of health care items
   
7. $66 billion capital gains (Obama took $122,000 off his taxes from this!)

NOTICE that 1, 2, 3,4,5 items are for individuals... i.e. employee insurance ..deduction... employee pensions.. etc...

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[RKMBrown]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

"Tax Loopholes" Here they are. You ready to abolish them???

The Top 20 Tax Expenditures - Business Insider

1. $171 billion in 2012 was deducted from taxes for... health insurance for EMPLOYEES!!
   
2. $138 billion for employees pensions!
   
3. $87 billion employees mortgage interest deductions
   
4. $24 billion for child care credit
   
5. $33 billion charitable contributions
   
6. $27 billion deductions of health care items
   
7. $66 billion capital gains (Obama took $122,000 off his taxes from this!)

NOTICE that 1, 2, 3,4,5 items are for individuals... i.e. employee insurance ..deduction... employee pensions.. etc...

I'm not sure what your point is.

Blind squirrel could find it.

 

[PMZ]

"Tax Loopholes" Here they are. You ready to abolish them???

The Top 20 Tax Expenditures - Business Insider

1. $171 billion in 2012 was deducted from taxes for... health insurance for EMPLOYEES!!
   
2. $138 billion for employees pensions!
   
3. $87 billion employees mortgage interest deductions
   
4. $24 billion for child care credit
   
5. $33 billion charitable contributions
   
6. $27 billion deductions of health care items
   
7. $66 billion capital gains (Obama took $122,000 off his taxes from this!)

NOTICE that 1, 2, 3,4,5 items are for individuals... i.e. employee insurance ..deduction... employee pensions.. etc...

I'm not sure what your point is.

Blind squirrel could find it.

Maybe. But apparently you can't explain it.

 

[Gadawg73]

One thing yesterday proved is that conservatism contains nests of anarchists intent on weakening resistance to them imposing what's best for them on all of us.

We have proven ithat the "Liberals" contains nests of socialists intent on weakening resistance to them imposing what's best for them on all of us.

Why would we want any, any, of those in our government?

.

Conservatives are trained to believe everyone left of them are liberals and socialists.

Conservatives are trained to fear the second most common economic system used in the world and our country.

Conservatives are trained to support weak government as strong government is what is in the way of them imposing demonstrably dysfunctional conservatism on the majority.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the tyranny of a minority creates freedom while the democracy of the majority reduces it.

Conservatives are trained to respect only the unamended Constitution that the founders used to establish an aristocracy of wealthy white males.

Conservatives are trained to question science and accept mythology.

Conservatives are trained to believe that spending is the only cause of debt.

Conservatives are trained to believe that unemployed Americans are good because they are desperate and will therefore work for less

Conservatives are trained to believe that hard work is all that's required to be wealthy, and therefore all poor do not work hard enough.

Conservatives are trained to believe that what's wrong with 20% of the people having 85% of the wealth, is that the 20% doesn't have more.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the cause of the decline of America since the rise of conservatism are Democrats, liberals, government, all workers but especially Union members or government workers, all races other than Caucasian, all religions other than Christianity, all nationalities other than American, women, the poor, illegal workers recruited here by business, customers, gays, all of those who don't own guns, the educated and intelligent, young and old people, mainstream media, Al Gore, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and all of the Obamas.

Conservatives are trained to goose step with precision.

You can not define yourself so you label others.

 

[kkline99]

I just want to be left alone, as long as somebody else supports me.

 

[Cecilie1200]

BriPat is in charge of closet monsters. He has quite a stable full. He rents them to conservatives who use them to keep the conversation on problems, their specialty, and away from solutions, as they offer none.

Actually, I just asked you for your solution and provided a link to the question, and you offered none...

I don't see much evidence that criminals with guns are huge a problem except for other criminals with guns.

Nutballs with guns is a different story.

There are many success stories around the world of effective gun control. Of course other countries don't have as effective firearms marketing as the NRA, or the number of suckers to fall for it as Americans.

I don't think that it's possible to take guns away from just criminals. If everyone can have them criminals will have them.

Yeah, and if no one's allowed to have them . . . criminals will STILL have them. It's like they don't pay attention to what they're allowed to do, or something.

I'd love to hear some of these "effective gun control success stories". Do tell.

You "don't see" a problem with criminals with guns to anyone but other criminals, huh? Perhaps if you stopped staring at your own belly button, leftist, and took a gander at the real world around you once in a while. Why don't you tell us how you "know" that only criminals have to worry about armed criminals, hmm?

 

[PMZ]

We have proven ithat the "Liberals" contains nests of socialists intent on weakening resistance to them imposing what's best for them on all of us.

Why would we want any, any, of those in our government?

.

Conservatives are trained to believe everyone left of them are liberals and socialists.

Conservatives are trained to fear the second most common economic system used in the world and our country.

Conservatives are trained to support weak government as strong government is what is in the way of them imposing demonstrably dysfunctional conservatism on the majority.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the tyranny of a minority creates freedom while the democracy of the majority reduces it.

Conservatives are trained to respect only the unamended Constitution that the founders used to establish an aristocracy of wealthy white males.

Conservatives are trained to question science and accept mythology.

Conservatives are trained to believe that spending is the only cause of debt.

Conservatives are trained to believe that unemployed Americans are good because they are desperate and will therefore work for less

Conservatives are trained to believe that hard work is all that's required to be wealthy, and therefore all poor do not work hard enough.

Conservatives are trained to believe that what's wrong with 20% of the people having 85% of the wealth, is that the 20% doesn't have more.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the cause of the decline of America since the rise of conservatism are Democrats, liberals, government, all workers but especially Union members or government workers, all races other than Caucasian, all religions other than Christianity, all nationalities other than American, women, the poor, illegal workers recruited here by business, customers, gays, all of those who don't own guns, the educated and intelligent, young and old people, mainstream media, Al Gore, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and all of the Obamas.

Conservatives are trained to goose step with precision.

You can not define yourself so you label others.

Want to debate any of those things?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't see much evidence that criminals with guns are huge a problem except for other criminals with guns.

Nutballs with guns is a different story.

There many success stories around the world of effective gun control. Of course other countries don't have as effective firearms marketing as the NRA, or the number of suckers to fall for it as Americans.

I don't think that it's possible to take guns away from just criminals. If everyone can have them criminals will have them.

Actually, there are not ‘many’ success stories around the world with forearms controls. The reality is that there are very few examples of such success stories. Almost all gun control laws are outright failures in curving the homicide rate down (which is the entire point of gun control: fewer people unjustly killed).

So, here we go again.

Clearly I am going to have to remake this argument in a few places so I am going to rework another post I did in one of these other threads. For those of you that heave read this from me, skip it. For the rest of the slow class: gun control advocates have no evidence supporting their demands. I ask the posters here that support gun control laws, how are the gun advocates on the 'wrong' side when you have no data to support your point where they have tons.

All over the place on this board I am seeing people demanding gun control and making a wide variety of claims about what we need or do not need but one thing is utterly lacking IN EVERY FUCKING THREAD: facts. I can count the number of facts used in the dozens of threads calling for gun reforms on one hand. Get educated, we have passed laws already and we have metrics to gauge their effectiveness.

First, common misinformation techniques must be addressed because you still find all kinds of false claims about higher 'death' rates with lax gin laws that are outright false. The metric we need to be looking at is homicides. Lots of people like to use 'gun' deaths but that is a rather useless term because you are not really measuring anything. That term is not fully defined and it is not as easily tracked and compared with different years as a solid statistic. I also hope that we can agree that what instrument kills the victim is irrelevant. If gun deaths are cut by 25% but knife deaths increase the same number by 50% we have not made progress. Rather, we regressed and are worse off. The real relevant information here is how many people are killed overall and whether or not stricter gun laws results in fewer deaths or crimes. That is what the gun control advocates are claiming.


Another common misinformation tactic is to compare US deaths to those on other countries. Comparing international numbers is also utterly meaningless. Why, you ask. Well, that's simple. Scientific data requires that we control for other variables. Comparing US to Brittan is meaningless because there are thousands of variables that make a huge difference. Not only the proliferation of guns that already exists and the current gun laws but also things as basic as culture, diversity, population density, police forces and a host of other things would need to be accounted for. That is utterly impossible. Mexico and Switzerland can be used on the other side of the argument of Brittan and in the end we have learned nothing by doing this. How do we overcome this? Also, simple. You compare the crime rates before and after gun legislation has passed. We can do that here and in Brittan.
Gun Control - Just Facts

Here we see the homicide rate remain flat for almost a decade after such laws are passed with a spike up after. Washington apparently did not get the memo that homicides were supposed to decrease after they passed their law.

Here we have Chicago where there is no discernable difference before and after the ban. Again, we are not seeing any real positive effects here. As a matter of fact, the rate has worsened as compared to the overall rate in the country even though it has slightly decreased. Form the caption:




Then we can use this same tactic in measuring the effectiveness in Britton. Lets actually look at the real numbers over there as well:

Oops, even in Brittan, when we account for other factors by using their OWN crime rates, we find that gun laws have NOT reduced the homicides they have suffered. Seems we are developing a pattern here. At least Chicago seen some reduction though it was far less than the national average decrease.


Then, you could always argue, what happens when we relax gun laws. If the gun 'grabbers' were correct, crimes rate would skyrocket (or at least go up). Does that happen:

Guess not. The homicide rate in Florida fell rather rapidly and faster than the national average. In Texas we get a similar result:

Then there are other statistics that do matter very much like the following:


Clearly, claiming that gun control leads to better outcomes is blatantly false. Look at the data, it is conclusive that gun laws most certainly do not have any positive impact on homicides or any other meaningful metric. If you have information that states otherwise then please post it. I have yet to see some solid statistical evidence that points to gun control as being a competent way of reducing deaths. I hope I have not wasted my time getting this information. Try reading it, it will enlighten you.


In conclusion, over dozens of separate threads have simply ceased to continue because not a single lefty here has any response to the given facts. I have serious doubts that this time will be any different but I wait with bated breath for one single person to actually support their demands with something that resembles fact. So far, I have received nothing.

Actually, all of those accidently killed by firearms are also unjustly killed.

This post was a fail so epic, it ruptured the fabric of space and time with the sheer force of its fucktardery.

You are now the hero of epic failure to all aspiring epic fails to come.

 

[PMZ]

Actually, I just asked you for your solution and provided a link to the question, and you offered none...

I don't see much evidence that criminals with guns are huge a problem except for other criminals with guns.

Nutballs with guns is a different story.

There are many success stories around the world of effective gun control. Of course other countries don't have as effective firearms marketing as the NRA, or the number of suckers to fall for it as Americans.

I don't think that it's possible to take guns away from just criminals. If everyone can have them criminals will have them.

Yeah, and if no one's allowed to have them . . . criminals will STILL have them. It's like they don't pay attention to what they're allowed to do, or something.

I'd love to hear some of these "effective gun control success stories". Do tell.

You "don't see" a problem with criminals with guns to anyone but other criminals, huh? Perhaps if you stopped staring at your own belly button, leftist, and took a gander at the real world around you once in a while. Why don't you tell us how you "know" that only criminals have to worry about armed criminals, hmm?

I've lived a long time without being armed with out a single problem. I have many friends who've had the same experience. Yet I hear from folks like you that there's apparently a war going on.

Personally I think my odds of being shot by accident is greater than by crime.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't see much evidence that criminals with guns are huge a problem except for other criminals with guns.

Nutballs with guns is a different story.

There are many success stories around the world of effective gun control. Of course other countries don't have as effective firearms marketing as the NRA, or the number of suckers to fall for it as Americans.

I don't think that it's possible to take guns away from just criminals. If everyone can have them criminals will have them.

If NO ONE can have them legally then criminals will still have them.

But there'd be a whole lot fewer accidental killings.

Traded off for a whole lot more deliberate violence. How about not?

 

[Cecilie1200]

They, like you, were right wing extremists as they, like you, thought that their biggest enemy were Communists.

That's why I'm a centrist. I think that both Nazis and Communists are dysfunctional.

You're about as "centrist" as Pol Pot. Kennedy and Johnson also thought the communists were our biggest enemy. Being anti-communist doesn't make you a right-winger. If it did, then that would mean all the left-wingers in this country are pro-communist. Is that really what you want us to believe?

Nazis believed in big government, just like you. Nazis believed businesses existed to serve government purposes, just like you. Nazis believed your net income was a gift from the government, just like you. Nazis believed in socialized medicine, just like you.

Nazis believed they were entitled to impose their delusions on the rest of the world, by any means, just like you.

No, actually, that would be YOU.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thanks for showing your true colors, you fucking Nazi.

They, like you, were right wing extremists as they, like you, thought that their biggest enemy were Communists.

There is something called Godwins law I believe that says the first person that brings up the Nazis in a forum has lost the argument. Looks like in this case thats you Bripat.

Sometimes I think you can tell a party by its funders more than its rhetoric. The Nazis were funded by big business. Some even think they were partially funded by banks in the US. A Bush ancestor or his company, Prescott? I believe got in trouble for dealing with the enemy.

Sounds to me like you went wrong at the point where you mistakenly believed you were thinking.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nazis believed they were entitled to impose their delusions on the rest of the world, by any means, just like you.

So, our demands that you do not impose on us is a "delusion". You have a right to enslave us?

Just so you know violence begets violence.

.

No, we have a right to be free of your irresponsibility. We can't afford it, being only one of a long list of reasons. We are the most free people to ever walk the planet thanks to a strong government.

You've chosen the wrong market to sell your boogeyman in.

Whatever meds they have you on, they're not strong enough. Look into that.

 

[PMZ]

Actually, there are not ‘many’ success stories around the world with forearms controls. The reality is that there are very few examples of such success stories. Almost all gun control laws are outright failures in curving the homicide rate down (which is the entire point of gun control: fewer people unjustly killed).

Actually, all of those accidently killed by firearms are also unjustly killed.

This post was a fail so epic, it ruptured the fabric of space and time with the sheer force of its fucktardery.

You are now the hero of epic failure to all aspiring epic fails to come.

Actually, all of those accidently killed by firearms are also unjustly killed.

You are arguing with this statement?

 

[Gadawg73]

Conservatives are trained to believe everyone left of them are liberals and socialists.

Conservatives are trained to fear the second most common economic system used in the world and our country.

Conservatives are trained to support weak government as strong government is what is in the way of them imposing demonstrably dysfunctional conservatism on the majority.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the tyranny of a minority creates freedom while the democracy of the majority reduces it.

Conservatives are trained to respect only the unamended Constitution that the founders used to establish an aristocracy of wealthy white males.

Conservatives are trained to question science and accept mythology.

Conservatives are trained to believe that spending is the only cause of debt.

Conservatives are trained to believe that unemployed Americans are good because they are desperate and will therefore work for less

Conservatives are trained to believe that hard work is all that's required to be wealthy, and therefore all poor do not work hard enough.

Conservatives are trained to believe that what's wrong with 20% of the people having 85% of the wealth, is that the 20% doesn't have more.

Conservatives are trained to believe that the cause of the decline of America since the rise of conservatism are Democrats, liberals, government, all workers but especially Union members or government workers, all races other than Caucasian, all religions other than Christianity, all nationalities other than American, women, the poor, illegal workers recruited here by business, customers, gays, all of those who don't own guns, the educated and intelligent, young and old people, mainstream media, Al Gore, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and all of the Obamas.

Conservatives are trained to goose step with precision.

You can not define yourself so you label others.

Want to debate any of those things?

You are admittedly not a conservative so paragraph 1-5 is opinion only
As a conservative this is what I believe:
No one has trained me to question science and I do not accept mythology
No one has trained me to believe spending is the only cause of debt but controlling spending lowers the debt.
I do not support unemployment as good under any situation
I work hard and do not care if others do as that is there business. It is none of your business what I make and it is none of business what you make. You need to mind your own business and stay out of what others make. I make no assumptions of what others make. I do not care if you are wealthy or not as that is not any of my business. If you are I do not label you as evil because you have wealth.
No one has trained me to believe your claims on what wealthy people have or do not have
No one has trained me to believe your claims that the decline of America is from anything
No one has trained me to stereotype others based on their national origin as unlike you, I do not judge and stereotype others including their national origin.
No one has trained me to stereotype others based on their religion as unlike you, I do not judge and stereotype people of other religions I do not know
No has trained me to stereotype women, gays, whatever.
As a conservative I oppose the power of government to decide who gets an abortion and who does not and leave that health decision to the mother. You support the power of government.
As a conservative I supported open service for gays and lesbians in the military while you and the Democrats supported kicking them out under Don't Ask Don't Tell which was a Democratic policy under Clinton. Who trained you to be a supporter of discrimination?
As a conservative I supported gay marriage when the Democrats and Obama opposed it. Who trained you to discriminate against gays?
As a conservative I opposed preachers named Robertson and Jackson running for President. You supported the Democrats and Jackson won 9 primaries and received millions of votes. Who trained you to oppose separation of church and state?
As a conservative I support the 2nd Amendment. Who trained you to believe that has been amended?
As a conservative I support women's rights. Who trained you to believe that is was not Republicans that fought for women to vote and Democrats never opposed it?
Stick to what you know and what you support and believe because you are way off base with your silly crystal ball attempting to label others you do not know and have no clue what their beliefs are.
It is obvious you were trained to be an elitist snob. That clearly stands out for you.
I bet top dollar there is a long list of folks that have called you that to your face.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, we have a right to be free of your irresponsibility. We can't afford it, being only one of a long list of reasons. We are the most free people to ever walk the planet thanks to a strong government.

You've chosen the wrong market to sell your boogeyman in.

And let me guess, you and your ilk get to define "irresponsibility.". If we refuse to feed and insure your ass we are being "irresponsible".

Just so you know violence begets violence.

.

We define responsibility as not imposing what's best for you, on others. The purpose of the rule of law.

Most of us live inherently responsible lives. We are not affected by the rule of law. Those that don't, criminals that break our laws, get an "extra" lesson in the meaning of responsibility.

No, Chuckles, you define responsibility as "passing laws telling people what's best for them, and then calling them unpatriotic anarchists if they think your ideas are asinine". The purpose of the rule of law is NOT for you to pervert the law to control every aspect of people's lives. And don't even try to feed me that bullshit about how it's the right that does that; the right isn't out there, passing laws about how big a fountain drink someone can buy. The right isn't out there, telling people that the insurance plans they chose for themselves weren't good enough, and because they were too damned stupid to choose something suitable, they're going to "fix" the "problem" for them, and why aren't you thanking us for sharing our wisdom? The right doesn't tell people how to run the businesses they themselves built and funded. The right doesn't tell people how to raise and educate their children. And the right doesn't think that thoughts, beliefs, and opinions should be punishable by law.

 

[PMZ]

You can not define yourself so you label others.

Want to debate any of those things?

You are admittedly not a conservative so paragraph 1-5 is opinion only
As a conservative this is what I believe:
No one has trained me to question science and I do not accept mythology
No one has trained me to believe spending is the only cause of debt but controlling spending lowers the debt.
I do not support unemployment as good under any situation
I work hard and do not care if others do as that is there business. It is none of your business what I make and it is none of business what you make. You need to mind your own business and stay out of what others make. I make no assumptions of what others make. I do not care if you are wealthy or not as that is not any of my business. If you are I do not label you as evil because you have wealth.
No one has trained me to believe your claims on what wealthy people have or do not have
No one has trained me to believe your claims that the decline of America is from anything
No one has trained me to stereotype others based on their national origin as unlike you, I do not judge and stereotype others including their national origin.
No one has trained me to stereotype others based on their religion as unlike you, I do not judge and stereotype people of other religions I do not know
No has trained me to stereotype women, gays, whatever.
As a conservative I oppose the power of government to decide who gets an abortion and who does not and leave that health decision to the mother. You support the power of government.
As a conservative I supported open service for gays and lesbians in the military while you and the Democrats supported kicking them out under Don't Ask Don't Tell which was a Democratic policy under Clinton. Who trained you to be a supporter of discrimination?
As a conservative I supported gay marriage when the Democrats and Obama opposed it. Who trained you to discriminate against gays?
As a conservative I opposed preachers named Robertson and Jackson running for President. You supported the Democrats and Jackson won 9 primaries and received millions of votes. Who trained you to oppose separation of church and state?
As a conservative I support the 2nd Amendment. Who trained you to believe that has been amended?
As a conservative I support women's rights. Who trained you to believe that is was not Republicans that fought for women to vote and Democrats never opposed it?
Stick to what you know and what you support and believe because you are way off base with your silly crystal ball attempting to label others you do not know and have no clue what their beliefs are.
It is obvious you were trained to be an elitist snob. That clearly stands out for you.
I bet top dollar there is a long list of folks that have called you that to your face.

Good news. You're not a conservative.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The delusion that small, weak government will make us free.

We are free. You, not so much. You're not even free to think for yourself.

Am I free to choose the health insurance I want to buy? Am I free to choose how to fund my retirement? Am I free but whatever products I want to buy? If I have a business, am I free to pay my employees what I want to pay them?

We're all about as free as inmates in a penitentiary.

You are not free to pass the cost of maintaining your sorry, lazy ass on to others.

. . . says the staunch advocate for every leftist giveaway "charity" program to come down the pike.