[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[EdwardBaiamonte]

They believe that government exists to "take care of all of us"...That is not the purpose of government.

The real problem may be that so many of us are so rich and soft after years of success or after years on welfare that we can't bear to watch others in a sink or swim situation. Giving them crippling entitlements is just psychologicially easier than watching them suffer, grow, learn and become independent contributors to society.

Many modern parents spoil their kids this way too so the attitude is not hard to understand.

 

[thereisnospoon]

And you of the group who recognizes only two colors -- black and white. It's either a laissez-faire capitalism, or it is back to the USSR. Either the government provides anything and everything, or it should be made so small it can be drowned in a bathtub.

Forgive me, but that as simplistic -- and wrong -- as it can get. Both capitalism and the government are only means to the end -- which is well-being of the people. They should both be used to extent it serves that goal. No more, no less.

No dear. Capitalism is NOT a means to the well-being of the people

Yes dear, it is. In your own words:
But however selfish my motives are for engaging in capitalism, I nevertheless benefit many others. I benefit those who I acquire property from, those I pay taxes to, those I purchase supplies, services, and labor (i.e. employees) from, and all those to whom I provide a service or product that they need or want. And they in turn, quite coincidentally, benefit me by engaging in their own self serving interests.

If capitalism would not benefit most of the society members, we would replace is by something else long ago. Actually, the only reason we haven't is that we learned to replace laissez-faire capitalism with a modern welfare state.

Bottom line is that there is a place for the government, and its primary task is to correct bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

Once again, there is no such thing as income inequality.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously you can explain how capitalism, rather than liberal interference with capitalism, caused the Great Depression or the current depression.

 

[ilia25]

No dear. Capitalism is NOT a means to the well-being of the people

Yes dear, it is. In your own words:
But however selfish my motives are for engaging in capitalism, I nevertheless benefit many others. I benefit those who I acquire property from, those I pay taxes to, those I purchase supplies, services, and labor (i.e. employees) from, and all those to whom I provide a service or product that they need or want. And they in turn, quite coincidentally, benefit me by engaging in their own self serving interests.

If capitalism would not benefit most of the society members, we would replace is by something else long ago. Actually, the only reason we haven't is that we learned to replace laissez-faire capitalism with a modern welfare state.

Bottom line is that there is a place for the government, and its primary task is to correct bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

Once again, there is no such thing as income inequality.

Whatever you shall want to call it

 

[ilia25]

bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let the workers go and they cut spending even further. And round we go until millions have no work and no income.

 

[thereisnospoon]

No, it will just add more misery to already poor people. If we want them to work, we should create the right incentives:
1) reduce or eliminate altogether taxes for low income earners (payroll, etc)
2) if that is not enough, the government can match part of their earnings (for example, you earn $10 an hour, IRS adds $5 to your paycheck)
3) tax the rich to pay for it

"the government" can match? You mean the taxpayers...

Yes, I mean the taxpayers -- read the item 3)



That is a myth not based on any evidence.

BTW, NO ONE deserves to live tax free.

Aside from being a mean bastard, do you have any other reason for making that statement?

Mean? Grow up..People who are clean of drugs feel better about themselves.

They don't if they are constantly reminded that they can't be trusted to remain clean.

"Aside from being a mean bastard, do you have any other reason for making that statement?"
Skin in the game, Pal. It's an incentive to raise one's self above their current station.
Why the hell should the taxpayers fund a mythical pay raise for anyone? Total nonsense. And it will NEVER happen.
"They don't if they are constantly reminded that they can't be trusted to remain clean."...
If an abuser wants to be recognized as clean, he or she must be tested. The crime is not that were caught. The crime is what they did.
Trust is not the issue. Because drug use is so rampant among social program recipients, the public has grown tired of people on the public dole using drugs. So in order for the recipient to remain one, they should have to prove they don't use illegal drugs.
If that offends you, too bad.

 

[Zona]

I keep hearing liberals say day after day, "the rich need to pay their fair share!"

But when asked how much the "fair share" actually is, they have no idea and never come out with a specific number. Others just beat around the bush and talk about periods in our history when top marginal tax rates were in the 90% range (even though nobody ever paid that rate), but say that's not really what they want. Maybe out of fear they'll get called communists.

Anyways, I thought I'd put an end to the confusion once and for all with this poll.

Liberals, what should be the "fair share" the rich have to pay in taxes?

Conservatives, feel free to chime in as well.

Whatever the tax rate was under regan is fine with me.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let workers go, and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

dear, was the Great Depression or the current depression caused by capitalism or by liberal interference with capitalism??

This is Econ 101 for you!! Welcome to your first lesson.

 

[thereisnospoon]

bad outcomes that the free market creates. Like economic depressions, or too big an inequality.

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let the workers go and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

The economy is cyclical. It fixes itself.
Government interference in the economy invariably results in disaster.
It has every time.
One of the reasons why we are in such an economic malaise is because the government will not allow the economy to bottom out. Interest rates are artificially low. The federal government is buying $85 billion in securities each month just to prop up the financial markets.
None of this should be done.
But it's political. No administration wants to be the one with the bottoming out economy. So they use certain tactics to kick the can down the road.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let workers go, and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

dear, was the Great Depression or the current depression caused by capitalism or by liberal interference with capitalism??

This is Econ 101 for you!! Welcome to your first lesson.

You'll get some nonsense that the economy slows due to the absence of government control. And then some other gobbledeygook about fairness.

 

[noose4]

Pot – meet kettle.

Seems you are projecting. This is an example of black and white thinking devoid completely of actual fact. You ignore the myriad success stories of companies that have used venture capital to recover, gloss over the fact that these companies don’t exactly get ‘attacked’ by so called vultures – they ASK for them to come in and help and come to the completely erroneous conclusion that venture capital = bad. That is a talking point, no more valid than the myriad of republican talking points that you seem to deplore and belittle people for repeating.

Try independent thought, it is far more healthy.

You should give it a try first, and you should also follow a conversation from it's beginning to understand how it has progressed.

I have. Not surprising that you have deflected though.

Not surprising that you think you have when you havent.

 

[noose4]

Name one business where the CEO or Boss pays himself before paying all of his operating expenses?

Look at any company Bain capital and companies like that have taken over, they fill them with debt, cut workers wages and benefits, give themselves big bonuses and then declare bankruptcy and put the company out of business, vulture capitalism has made many wealthy people even wealthier.

Hostess as an example:

Why Should Hostess Executives Get The Bonuses They're Demanding? - Forbes

Oh, that nice. You don't really understand how bankruptcy works, either...

Oh that's nice you get shown how executives take big money while sinking a company destroying what you said and you act like you actually have some knowledge, yes the different color nail polish discussion is more your intellectual speed.

 

[ilia25]

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let workers go, and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

dear, was the Great Depression or the current depression caused by capitalism or by liberal interference with capitalism??

WTF are you talking about? I just explained it how a free-market economy runs into the ground with no outside help!

 

[ilia25]

The free market is self-correcting so it cant cause depressions!!

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let the workers go and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

The economy is cyclical. It fixes itself.

Sure, in the long run it fixes itself. But not before it leaves millions unemployed for years.

Government interference in the economy invariably results in disaster.

On the contrary -- it prevented another Great Depression for so many years that we forgot the lessons. Then it happened again.

One of the reasons why we are in such an economic malaise is because the government will not allow the economy to bottom out.

And where was the bottom? 25% unemployed? Or 75%? And how long it would take to crawl back?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let workers go, and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

dear, was the Great Depression or the current depression caused by capitalism or by liberal interference with capitalism??

WTF are you talking about? I just explained it how a free-market economy runs into the ground with no outside help!

and I asked for examples and you are running away with your liberal tail between your legs!!

 

[Desperado]

If 10% is good enough for God, it should also be good enough for the government

 

[ilia25]

dear, was the Great Depression or the current depression caused by capitalism or by liberal interference with capitalism??

WTF are you talking about? I just explained it how a free-market economy runs into the ground with no outside help!

and I asked for examples and you are running away with your liberal tail between your legs!!

Examples are pretty much any recent recession, or Great Depression. I though it was obvious.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

WTF are you talking about? I just explained it how a free-market economy runs into the ground with no outside help!

and I asked for examples and you are running away with your liberal tail between your legs!!

Examples are pretty much any recent recession, or Great Depression. I though it was obvious.

dear, please pick your best example and explain why it was caused by capitalism rather than liberal interference with capitalism or admit as a fool liberal you lack the IQ to do so!!!

 

[ilia25]

and I asked for examples and you are running away with your liberal tail between your legs!!

Examples are pretty much any recent recession, or Great Depression. I though it was obvious.

dear, please pick your best example and explain why it was caused by capitalism rather than liberal interference with capitalism or admit as a fool liberal you lack the IQ to do so!!!

I don't think you can read, but try again:
Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let workers go, and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

Current depression is an example. The event that scared the consumers was the Financial Crisis of 2008, but it could have been anything (in 2001 it was the Internet Bubble). And it did scare the consumers, and when those cut on spending, then and only then the real economy went into tailspin.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Obviously someone was living under the rock for the past 80 years.

Depression is simple -- people a scared by some event, and cut on their spending. Businesses can't sell, have to let the workers go and they cut spending even further. And down we go until millions have no work and no income.

The economy is cyclical. It fixes itself.

Sure, in the long run it fixes itself. But not before it leaves millions unemployed for years.

Government interference in the economy invariably results in disaster.

On the contrary -- it prevented another Great Depression for so many years that we forgot the lessons. Then it happened again.

One of the reasons why we are in such an economic malaise is because the government will not allow the economy to bottom out.

And where was the bottom? 25% unemployed? Or 75%? And how long it would take to crawl back?

That is not the point. The federal government has been running up huge debt, money we do not have to artificially prop up the economy.
DO you really believe everything should be roses all the time? That there should never be peaks and valleys in the economy? Surely you cannot be that naive.
Have you ever asked yourself why annualized GDP growth has been under 2% for the last 15 quarters?
The fact is no matter what government does, it cannot avoid the inevitable forever. The Federal Reserve cannot keep printing currency and the government cannot keep borrowing forever.
May as well get it over with.
Either the band aid gets pulled off slowly and the pain lasts a long time, or pull it off quickly. The pain is more intense but lasts just a moment.