[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

 

[Gadawg73]

Capital gains taxes have been lowered to a such a tiny rate, that it transferred trillions of dollars from the middle class to the super rich.

This is the real redistribution of wealth in America.....welfare for the wealthy.

No dumbass, not one cent has been "transferred from the middle class to the rich"

You are a damn fool.
The tax rate allowed investors to keep more of THEIR OWN MONEY.
No one took any money from anyone when producers are allowed to keep THE MONEY THEY EARNED.

 

[Gadawg73]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

It is those that work hard and save their money become wealthy.
You can call it what you want and achievement is a good name but that is what the definition of wealthy is. Not everyone but everyone I know, including me, that is wealthy worked 60 hours a week for 40+ years, drove old cars, saved their money and did not cry like a milk weak sissy when someone else had more than us.
It is not what you make that makes you wealthy it is how much of a work ethic you have and how much you keep.
Something about not seeking a hand out which would be setting a bad example for the youth.

 

[Foxfyre]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

It is those that work hard and save their money become wealthy.
You can call it what you want and achievement is a good name but that is what the definition of wealthy is. Not everyone but everyone I know, including me, that is wealthy worked 60 hours a week for 40+ years, drove old cars, saved their money and did not cry like a milk weak sissy when someone else had more than us.
It is not what you make that makes you wealthy it is how much of a work ethic you have and how much you keep.
Something about not seeking a hand out which would be setting a bad example for the youth.

So I educated myself, did the 60-hours (sometimes more) per week, lived mostly within my means, etc. etc. etc. and now I am retired. I am by no means wealthy by USA standards, but I have all that I need and enough for a few wants so that I do not feel deprived. And that makes me more wealthy than most people in the world.

But in all honesty, there are some--politicians, sports figures, musicians, inventors, artists, writers, entreprenours who hit on a new marketable concept, exploiters of resources, etc. who are unimaginably wealthy without the intense education and without doing the 60-hours-per-week routine.

And while I sometimes think how neat that would be, I also think good for them. I didn't have the kind of skills or didn't hit on a formula to become very wealthy, but the fact that they did took absolutely nothing away from me.

The fact that those who earned from hard work, or who were just lucky enough to amass fortunes othewise, costs me nothing. And the fact that some are wealthy enough to provide opportunity for others to earn a living has served me very well.

You cannot help the poor by tearing down or hurting the rich. Every time you try, you will hurt the poor ever so much more than you will hurt the rich.

 

[rdean]

The Corporate Tax Rate Is Lowest in Decades; Is Business Paying Its Fair Share? | TIME.com

Federal Income Taxes on Middle-Income Families Remain Near Historic Lows ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

These Republicans. Their greed and selfishness has over powered their common sense. Freedom is expensive. It costs money. You have bastards like Mitt Romney saying the reason none of his five sons ever went into the military is because they were doing something more important. Helping him get elected president.

Where do most of our soldiers come from? The middle class and the poor. The very people Republicans want to screw over in the worst way.

And they cry about government taking their money. Fuckers should leave. Go someplace you can live for "free".

Listen up fucktards. It's NOT your country if you don't want to help pay for it.

Responsibility is a tough issue for conservatives. They like it in others, but hate it for themselves.

True. You can't get the right wing to take responsibility for anything except taking out Bin Laden. The one thing they had nothing to do with.

 

[Contumacious]

Is that the only thing your mind can understand? It says "government", that must be a government job. If it doesn't say government, then its a private sector job. Is that the limit of your understanding? You don't think construction, mining and logging or transportation industries receive government subsidies?

As you , should, know, our economy is fascistic, ie, heavily regulated and the government has taken upon itself to intervene in economic matters.

So the question should be , what economic activity would exist even if the government was non-interventionist?

If the congress was to nationalize oxygen, we would still need to breath.So you can not accuse me of using subsidized Oxygen merely because the bastards have intervened.

.

 

[PMZ]

Capital gains taxes have been lowered to a such a tiny rate, that it transferred trillions of dollars from the middle class to the super rich.

This is the real redistribution of wealth in America.....welfare for the wealthy.

No dumbass, not one cent has been "transferred from the middle class to the rich"

You are a damn fool.
The tax rate allowed investors to keep more of THEIR OWN MONEY.
No one took any money from anyone when producers are allowed to keep THE MONEY THEY EARNED.

Person A works and is paid $100K per year salary.

Person B is wealthy and lives off his investments from which he receives $100K income each year.

Are you saying that you believe that they pay equal Federal taxes?

 

[PMZ]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

It is those that work hard and save their money become wealthy.
You can call it what you want and achievement is a good name but that is what the definition of wealthy is. Not everyone but everyone I know, including me, that is wealthy worked 60 hours a week for 40+ years, drove old cars, saved their money and did not cry like a milk weak sissy when someone else had more than us.
It is not what you make that makes you wealthy it is how much of a work ethic you have and how much you keep.
Something about not seeking a hand out which would be setting a bad example for the youth.

You are describing some wealthy people, some middle class people and some poor people.

The difference between the outcomes from those similar work ethics is typically the luck of being in the right place at the right time to seize an opportunity, plus the luck of being born to the right parents.

 

[Foxfyre]

Capital gains taxes have been lowered to a such a tiny rate, that it transferred trillions of dollars from the middle class to the super rich.

This is the real redistribution of wealth in America.....welfare for the wealthy.

No dumbass, not one cent has been "transferred from the middle class to the rich"

You are a damn fool.
The tax rate allowed investors to keep more of THEIR OWN MONEY.
No one took any money from anyone when producers are allowed to keep THE MONEY THEY EARNED.

Person A works and is paid $100K per year salary.

Person B is wealthy and lives off his investments from which he receives $100K income each year.

Are you saying that you believe that they pay equal Federal taxes?

Person B is very likely to have paid taxes on the wages that he then invested in order to have investment income. You have to factor that in there too. Person A, if he manages and invests his money, will have the same privilege of enjoying lower capital gains taxes. But the principle of those capital gains has had the highest legal taxes already applied to them.

The one exception is the tax deferred IRA's and 401K's that are not taxed until you withdraw them and/or the earnings on them. And we are ALL, without exception, allowed to have those, but we are limited to a modest amount that we can put in them each year.

A flat tax on ALL forms of income is the only way to go to be fair though.

With a 10% flat tax, the guy who earns $100,000 pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who wins $100,000 at the casino pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who nets $100,000 in capital gains pays $10,000 in taxes.

 

[PMZ]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

It is those that work hard and save their money become wealthy.
You can call it what you want and achievement is a good name but that is what the definition of wealthy is. Not everyone but everyone I know, including me, that is wealthy worked 60 hours a week for 40+ years, drove old cars, saved their money and did not cry like a milk weak sissy when someone else had more than us.
It is not what you make that makes you wealthy it is how much of a work ethic you have and how much you keep.
Something about not seeking a hand out which would be setting a bad example for the youth.

So I educated myself, did the 60-hours (sometimes more) per week, lived mostly within my means, etc. etc. etc. and now I am retired. I am by no means wealthy by USA standards, but I have all that I need and enough for a few wants so that I do not feel deprived. And that makes me more wealthy than most people in the world.

But in all honesty, there are some--politicians, sports figures, musicians, inventors, artists, writers, entreprenours who hit on a new marketable concept, exploiters of resources, etc. who are unimaginably wealthy without the intense education and without doing the 60-hours-per-week routine.

And while I sometimes think how neat that would be, I also think good for them. I didn't have the kind of skills or didn't hit on a formula to become very wealthy, but the fact that they did took absolutely nothing away from me.

The fact that those who earned from hard work, or who were just lucky enough to amass fortunes othewise, costs me nothing. And the fact that some are wealthy enough to provide opportunity for others to earn a living has served me very well.

You cannot help the poor by tearing down or hurting the rich. Every time you try, you will hurt the poor ever so much more than you will hurt the rich.

''You cannot help the poor by tearing down or hurting the rich.''

You can make everyone better off by maintaining a functional wealth distribution. Extreme wealth distribution, as we now have in the US, is socially unstable, and will end at some point in time bad for everyone.

And restoring a functional wealth distribution doesn't really hurt anyone. The wealthy will still have enough to feel and demonstrate what they consider superiority, the poor will suffer less and have more opportunity, and the middle class workers will do what they always do. Create the wealth that supports everyone else.

Smart people like Gates and Buffet do it the efficient way. Directly. Some have to be required to do it through taxes. In other words, made to be smart and responsible by government. They whine a lot but in the end everyone is better off.

 

[PMZ]

Mr Brown claims to be wealthy. He demonstrates an inability to reason, a lack of knowledge, and a firm belief in many things provably wrong.

Proof positive of my position that there is no correlation between wealth and achievement.

It is those that work hard and save their money become wealthy.
You can call it what you want and achievement is a good name but that is what the definition of wealthy is. Not everyone but everyone I know, including me, that is wealthy worked 60 hours a week for 40+ years, drove old cars, saved their money and did not cry like a milk weak sissy when someone else had more than us.
It is not what you make that makes you wealthy it is how much of a work ethic you have and how much you keep.
Something about not seeking a hand out which would be setting a bad example for the youth.

If only what you want to be, was the rule rather than the exception. There are many very wealthy who got that way through legal or illegal stealing, inheritence, pure luck, by entertaining many people a little bit. A few dollars worth.

The idea that wealthy people on the average, work harder than poor or middle class people do, on the average is unsupportable by fact.

Simply an urban myth.

I've done very well primarily due to being born to folks who passed on intelligence and were passable parents and instilled an inate curiosity and love of learning. And I always did what I enjoyed and was good at.

That’s called my good fortune.

 

[Foxfyre]

The poor will NOT have more opportunity if you take wealth away from the wealthy. The poor will have much LESS opportunity to even earn a living, much less become wealthy themselves, the more you take from the rich in some kind of social nonsense of wealth equalization.

Between the Civil War and 1913, the U.S. economy experienced absolutely explosive growth. The free market system thrived and the rest of the world looked at us with envy. The federal government was very limited in size, there was no income tax for most of that time and there was no central bank. The disparity between rich and poor was every bit as large as it is now, but there was no expectation that the rich should become poorer and that would somehow allow the poor to become richer. Folks back then didn't worry about how rich somebody else was. They were just grateful that there were no artificial barriers to them having the opportunity to also become rich.

 

[oldfart]

How about 23% of real GDP?

 

[PMZ]

No dumbass, not one cent has been "transferred from the middle class to the rich"

You are a damn fool.
The tax rate allowed investors to keep more of THEIR OWN MONEY.
No one took any money from anyone when producers are allowed to keep THE MONEY THEY EARNED.

Person A works and is paid $100K per year salary.

Person B is wealthy and lives off his investments from which he receives $100K income each year.

Are you saying that you believe that they pay equal Federal taxes?

Person B is very likely to have paid taxes on the wages that he then invested in order to have investment income. You have to factor that in there too. Person A, if he manages and invests his money, will have the same privilege of enjoying lower capital gains taxes. But the principle of those capital gains has had the highest legal taxes already applied to them.

The one exception is the tax deferred IRA's and 401K's that are not taxed until you withdraw them and/or the earnings on them. And we are ALL, without exception, allowed to have those, but we are limited to a modest amount that we can put in them each year.

A flat tax on ALL forms of income is the only way to go to be fair though.

With a 10% flat tax, the guy who earns $100,000 pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who wins $100,000 at the casino pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who nets $100,000 in capital gains pays $10,000 in taxes.

Both person A and B pay one federal tax on each dollar of their earnings. The one who works subsidizes the one who doesn't have to. Substantially. We punish work if you believe that the cost of being a citizen of a successful country is punishment.

There is no tax tactic more regressive than the flat tax. It would take about one generation to turn us into a dysfunctional banana republic aristocracy.

 

[Billo_Really]

You cannot help the poor by tearing down or hurting the rich. Every time you try, you will hurt the poor ever so much more than you will hurt the rich.

What about the people getting rich, by tearing down the poor? The people who have to cook-the-books, to get their dole? Stack the deck at the expense of others? People that are rich enough to influence legislatures to favor them and fuck me?

The problem is, most of the rich in this country are not self-made millionaires. They are born into privilage. They live their whole life not having to work hard or do the things that their parents and grandparents did to get to that level. The things you had to do to get the things you needed to get done. Then daddy dies and they get thrusted into a CEO position and the company takes a dive because they just don't know what it takes (or what it took) to get there.

Experience is not something you can bestowe! There are no shortcuts. You have to do the work.

Do you know how many 2nd generation companies fail in the US? A lot! I've been doing what I've been doing (electrical engineering) for 40 years (since I was 17) and I can tell if someone knows their shit and someone who doesn't, just by how they talk in the office. And I'm sick of all these little rich kids, coming in with privilage, thinking their shit don't stink, thinking they're entitled to experience, that they should be treated as though they know something and I whind up spending overtime hours fixing all the crap they fuck up!

But when you go higher up the ladder, these preamadonna's can do some real damage to you and the country when they get involved in these phoney economy's like the derrivitives market. All this speculative crap doesn't create real goods or services. It is a phoney economy that will destroy the lives of people all over the planet. And who's fault is that? These little fuckin' kids who never had to work hard for a dollar.

 

[RKMBrown]

Person A works and is paid $100K per year salary.

Person B is wealthy and lives off his investments from which he receives $100K income each year.

Are you saying that you believe that they pay equal Federal taxes?

Person B is very likely to have paid taxes on the wages that he then invested in order to have investment income. You have to factor that in there too. Person A, if he manages and invests his money, will have the same privilege of enjoying lower capital gains taxes. But the principle of those capital gains has had the highest legal taxes already applied to them.

The one exception is the tax deferred IRA's and 401K's that are not taxed until you withdraw them and/or the earnings on them. And we are ALL, without exception, allowed to have those, but we are limited to a modest amount that we can put in them each year.

A flat tax on ALL forms of income is the only way to go to be fair though.

With a 10% flat tax, the guy who earns $100,000 pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who wins $100,000 at the casino pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who nets $100,000 in capital gains pays $10,000 in taxes.

Both person A and B pay one federal tax on each dollar of their earnings. The one who works subsidizes the one who doesn't have to. Substantially. We punish work if you believe that the cost of being a citizen of a successful country is punishment.

There is no tax tactic more regressive than the flat tax. It would take about one generation to turn us into a dysfunctional banana republic aristocracy.

Why?

 

[Redfish]

Person A works and is paid $100K per year salary.

Person B is wealthy and lives off his investments from which he receives $100K income each year.

Are you saying that you believe that they pay equal Federal taxes?

Person B is very likely to have paid taxes on the wages that he then invested in order to have investment income. You have to factor that in there too. Person A, if he manages and invests his money, will have the same privilege of enjoying lower capital gains taxes. But the principle of those capital gains has had the highest legal taxes already applied to them.

The one exception is the tax deferred IRA's and 401K's that are not taxed until you withdraw them and/or the earnings on them. And we are ALL, without exception, allowed to have those, but we are limited to a modest amount that we can put in them each year.

A flat tax on ALL forms of income is the only way to go to be fair though.

With a 10% flat tax, the guy who earns $100,000 pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who wins $100,000 at the casino pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who nets $100,000 in capital gains pays $10,000 in taxes.

Both person A and B pay one federal tax on each dollar of their earnings. The one who works subsidizes the one who doesn't have to. Substantially. We punish work if you believe that the cost of being a citizen of a successful country is punishment.

There is no tax tactic more regressive than the flat tax. It would take about one generation to turn us into a dysfunctional banana republic aristocracy.

your assumptions are flawed. you assume that the rich who live off of investments are not paying anything, investment income should be taxed just like hourly earned income, at the same flat rate.

If a guy like Warren Buffet makes 100M on his investments he pays the same rate as the guy on minimum wage. 10%. In case you don't know it 10% of 100M is 10M.

 

[Redfish]

You cannot help the poor by tearing down or hurting the rich. Every time you try, you will hurt the poor ever so much more than you will hurt the rich.

What about the people getting rich, by tearing down the poor? The people who have to cook-the-books, to get their dole? Stack the deck at the expense of others? People that are rich enough to influence legislatures to favor them and fuck me?

The problem is, most of the rich in this country are not self-made millionaires. They are born into privilage. They live their whole life not having to work hard or do the things that their parents and grandparents did to get to that level. The things you had to do to get the things you needed to get done. Then daddy dies and they get thrusted into a CEO position and the company takes a dive because they just don't know what it takes (or what it took) to get there.

Experience is not something you can bestowe! There are no shortcuts. You have to do the work.

Do you know how many 2nd generation companies fail in the US? A lot! I've been doing what I've been doing (electrical engineering) for 40 years (since I was 17) and I can tell if someone knows their shit and someone who doesn't, just by how they talk in the office. And I'm sick of all these little rich kids, coming in with privilage, thinking their shit don't stink, thinking they're entitled to experience, that they should be treated as though they know something and I whind up spending overtime hours fixing all the crap they fuck up!

But when you go higher up the ladder, these preamadonna's can do some real damage to you and the country when they get involved in these phoney economy's like the derrivitives market. All this speculative crap doesn't create real goods or services. It is a phoney economy that will destroy the lives of people all over the planet. And who's fault is that? These little fuckin' kids who never had to work hard for a dollar.

You envy and hatred of people like the Kennedys is noted. other than that, your post is worthless.

 

[PMZ]

The poor will NOT have more opportunity if you take wealth away from the wealthy. The poor will have much LESS opportunity to even earn a living, much less become wealthy themselves, the more you take from the rich in some kind of social nonsense of wealth equalization.

Between the Civil War and 1913, the U.S. economy experienced absolutely explosive growth. The free market system thrived and the rest of the world looked at us with envy. The federal government was very limited in size, there was no income tax for most of that time and there was no central bank. The disparity between rich and poor was every bit as large as it is now, but there was no expectation that the rich should become poorer and that would somehow allow the poor to become richer. Folks back then didn't worry about how rich somebody else was. They were just grateful that there were no artificial barriers to them having the opportunity to also become rich.

I suspect that you already know that you are grossly misinformed but prefer your mythology over truth because it's self serving.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States

 

[Spiderman]

Person B is very likely to have paid taxes on the wages that he then invested in order to have investment income. You have to factor that in there too. Person A, if he manages and invests his money, will have the same privilege of enjoying lower capital gains taxes. But the principle of those capital gains has had the highest legal taxes already applied to them.

The one exception is the tax deferred IRA's and 401K's that are not taxed until you withdraw them and/or the earnings on them. And we are ALL, without exception, allowed to have those, but we are limited to a modest amount that we can put in them each year.

A flat tax on ALL forms of income is the only way to go to be fair though.

With a 10% flat tax, the guy who earns $100,000 pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who wins $100,000 at the casino pays $10,000 in taxes.

The guy who nets $100,000 in capital gains pays $10,000 in taxes.

Both person A and B pay one federal tax on each dollar of their earnings. The one who works subsidizes the one who doesn't have to. Substantially. We punish work if you believe that the cost of being a citizen of a successful country is punishment.

There is no tax tactic more regressive than the flat tax. It would take about one generation to turn us into a dysfunctional banana republic aristocracy.

Why?

Good question.

The flat tax has worked in other countries there is no reason it wouldn't work here.

The crybaby argument is that since the so called poor ( you know the almost 50% of Americans who don't have to pay income tax) would finally have to pay something it would ruin them.